BR Manor Class Livery Colour Early 1950's

[Bill]

Does anyone know what the colour of Bradley Manor (7802) would have been painted around 1955 or so?

I have a copy of Bachmann's Freshford Manor with early BR emblem and it is black - but I am not sure that all the Manors were painted black, and whether or not some were in lined Brunswick Green...

If anyone could help or point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

[Karhedron]

The Manors are a bit of a minefield but I have done some research here.

 

In the early 1950s, the BR-built Manors (7820-29) were painted in lined MT black, it is possible that some of the GWR-built Manors were also lined black at this time but I have not seen any conclusive photos to prove it. What I do know is that all the Manors were repainted in plain unlined black when they visited Swindon in the early 50s for Blastpipe modifications to improve their steaming. By 1955 all Manors (including Bradley Manor) were in unlined black with the early BR crest.

 

By 1956, the WR started painting many of its mixed-traffic engines green again. Usually this was with lining although some locos were unlined. As far as I know, all the Manors recieved lined green in the late 1950s. I have never seen any photos of Manors in unlined green in BR days although I cannot rule out the possibility.

 

So the short answer is that Bradley Manor was definitely unlined black circa 1955. Hope that helps.

[Dukedog]

The Manors are a bit of a minefield but I have done some research here.

 

In the early 1950s, the BR-built Manors (7820-29) were painted in lined MT black, it is possible that some of the GWR-built Manors were also lined black at this time but I have not seen any conclusive photos to prove it. What I do know is that all the Manors were repainted in plain unlined black when they visited Swindon in the early 50s for Blastpipe modifications to improve their steaming. By 1955 all Manors (including Bradley Manor) were in unlined black with the early BR crest.

 

By 1956, the WR started painting many of its mixed-traffic engines green again. Usually this was with lining although some locos were unlined. As far as I know, all the Manors recieved lined green in the late 1950s. I have never seen any photos of Manors in unlined green in BR days although I cannot rule out the possibility.

 

So the short answer is that Bradley Manor was definitely unlined black circa 1955. Hope that helps.

 

AFAIK the above is correct.

I can not recall ever seeing a Manor in UN lined green either.

Don't forget that WR locos in black livery had a RED background to their name and cab side number plates.

I know that 247 developments did some number/name plates with red back ground for this reason.

 

Cheers!

Frank.

[The Stationmaster]

As I understand the 1956 Painting Instruction 'manors' would not have been lined but it does depend on how you interpret 'large passenger engine' as at least one Hall was lined. The 1957 amendment to the Instruction definitely meant that 'Manors' should be lined.

[Dukedog]

As I understand the 1956 Painting Instruction 'manors' would not have been lined but it does depend on how you interpret 'large passenger engine' as at least one Hall was lined. The 1957 amendment to the Instruction definitely meant that 'Manors' should be lined.

 

Yes you are probably right.

it was nearly 50 years ago since I saw my first Manor on the Cambrian, the brain cells fade a bit over time!

 

Cheers,

Frank

[jjnewitt]

I've just dug out my copy of Peto's register so thought I'd add what it tells us about such things.

 

The GWR manors all wore unlined black during the early fifties untill they began to be painted lined green. The exception to this was 7804 which according to the book was unlined green until it recieved the standard lined green livery in 1957. Aparently this was because it was the designated pilot of the Cornish Riviera Express and was the only one to carry this livery. I wonder if anyone knows of a picture of 7804 in unlined green?

The BR built manors all entered traffic in lined black. They were all painted plain black in the mid fifties before they were painted lined green.

The first manor to recieved the lined green livery was 7828 in July 1956 and the last was 7819 in February 1960.

7802 was indeed in plain black in 1955. She recieved this livery in February 1951 and was repainted lined green in Septenber 1958 after recieving a heavy general repair at Swindon.

To all this is the caveat that the information in the book may not be 100% acurate but it's a good starting point.

[Karhedron]

The exception to this was 7804 which according to the book was unlined green until it recieved the standard lined green livery in 1957. Aparently this was because it was the designated pilot of the Cornish Riviera Express and was the only one to carry this livery. I wonder if anyone knows of a picture of 7804 in unlined green?

I would also be interested to see such a picture but I never have. Do you know what markings it had on the tender? From the period I would guess early BR crest but "BRITISH RAILWAYS" lettering is another option.

 

To all this is the caveat that the information in the book may not be 100% acurate but it's a good starting point.

Always a sensible caveat but in this case the information seems to tally with the available photos.

[jjnewitt]

The book didn't say anything about tender markings. There was no date listed as to when she went from GWR green to BR green (if indeed there was any real change) which perhaps would have given a clue as to the type of markings that would have been on the tender, at least initially. It would be interesting to see a picture of 7804 pre 1957, you'd have thought that there would be some around somewhere particularly if she was the designated Cornish Riviera Express pilot for a time. Other unlined green ex GWR engines around the early mid fifties would be interesting too. Some part of my brain keeps telling me I've seen a picture of an unlined green Grange somewhere. Might be telling myself fibs though!

[Bill]

Thanks guys for guiding this topic through a total minefield, your help is very much appreciated - I am looking to acquire a Manor in O gauge, and as it is quite pricey, it is important to get it right...

A Replica of Granville Manor 7818 has appeared on the horizon as a possibility but it is in Lined Black, would that have been a possibility at some time?

From what you are all saying it does not appear to be a livery it carried...

Here is a photo of it in 1956 - but what colour would it be? It is clearly not lined

 

http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwrhj104.htm

 

And here is another of 7818 taken in 1961 sporting what apppears to be lined brunswick green

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil-seaford/6588240615/in/set-72157628579486321

[jjnewitt]

Hi Bill,

 

I think maybe I've seen a picture of that O gauge Manor on the Just Like The Real Thing website. I wondered why it was in lined black at the time. According to the book the real 7818 never wore lined black and I've never seen a picture of a GWR built manor with that livery. You could rename and number it to a BR built example I suppose but the you'd have to worry about chimneys and wheel types as well if you wanted to be accurate. You have to worry about wheel types anyway with the Manors as there were two different types and they were chopped and changed at will during the course of heavy overhauls in particularly from the late fifties onwards. The hours I've spent looking at pictures of Manors and also Granges trying to figure out which type they had at a particular time for my models. It's a stange sort of fun though!

 

The first photo 7818 is in plain black. According to the book she recieved lined green in November 1956 during the course of a Heavy General. The second photo is definately lined green and lovely she looks in it too!! Some nice pictures in that flickr site.

[Karhedron]

A Replica of Granville Manor 7818 has appeared on the horizon as a possibility but it is in Lined Black, would that have been a possibility at some time?

From what you are all saying it does not appear to be a livery it carried...

Here is a photo of it in 1956 - but what colour would it be? It is clearly not lined

 

http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwrhj104.htm

 

And here is another of 7818 taken in 1961 sporting what apppears to be lined brunswick green

 

http://www.flickr.co...157628579486321

The first photo is almost certainly in unlined black (although unlined grime might be more accurate ). All the Manors received unlined black at Swindon between 1952 and 1954 when they went in for chimney modifications. The seconbd photo is lined green as you rightly surmise.

 

Did it have lining prior to that date? I have not seen any photos of the original 20 Manors in lined black but without photographic evidence from the early 50s it is not possible to state conclusively that none were lined.

 

Personally I prefer lined BR black livery as I found the plain livery rather austere. One possibilty is to rename and renumber the model as one of the BR built examples. Here are a couple of shots of Dinmore Manor sporting lined black circa 1952.

 

 

[lapford34102]

Hi,

Been having a look at http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj104.htm and wonder if I'm seeing things but it looks like a G and a W on the tender. If so and going by the info above rather brings the date into question.

As regards red backed numberplates I believe they were relatively short lived. There was a thread over on the old forum but hopefully someone can confirm or otherwise.

Stu

[jjnewitt]

The first photo is almost certainly in unlined black (although unlined grime might be more accurate ). All the Manors received unlined black at Swindon between 1952 and 1954 when they went in for chimney modifications. The seconbd photo is lined green as you rightly surmise.

 

Did it have lining prior to that date? I have not seen any photos of the original 20 Manors in lined black but without photographic evidence from the early 50s it is not possible to state conclusively that none were lined.

 

Personally I prefer lined BR black livery as I found the plain livery rather austere. One possibilty is to rename and renumber the model as one of the BR built examples. Here are a couple of shots of Dinmore Manor sporting lined black circa 1952.

 

http://www.flickr.co...ret/5375712023/

 

http://www.flickr.co...ret/5909612152/

 

Nice photos. Personally I've never really got my head around ex GWR engines in lined black. It doesn't seem to sit right. They should be green!! They illustrate the later webbed spoke type wheel in that the balance weights cover six spokes on the wheel as oposed to five on the earlier type without the webbing. As I said earlier they did change over time though. I wonder if any of the BR built manors had lined black with the early type wheel. They all had the later type from the time they were built and the lined black livery didn't seem to last past their first heavy general if it lasted that time so it would seem not. The chimney is the original type on Dinmore at that time. Tis indeed a minefield!

[jjnewitt]

Hi,

Been having a look at http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwrhj104.htm and wonder if I'm seeing things but it looks like a G and a W on the tender. If so and going by the info above rather brings the date into question.

As regards red backed numberplates I believe they were relatively short lived. There was a thread over on the old forum but hopefully someone can confirm or otherwise.

Stu

 

It's not out of the question that the tender had G W R still on it at that time. There's one that made it all the way to 1965 and ended up behind 7816.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/50256734@N05/5702915274/

[jjnewitt]

Thinking about it tenders are also a minefield with this class, 3500 gallon Churchward riveted, flush riveted and intermediate. Collett 3500 gallon intermediate with 7814 and even a 4000 gallon with 7808 at the end. Perhaps Bill you could give us some more info about the possible purchase and we could try and match it up with another example if accuracy is important. What type of chimney, wheels and tender has it got?

[lapford34102]

There's one that made it all the way to 1965 and ended up behind 7816

 

Interesting, GWR on the tender and OLE warning flashes........... Doesn't this rather imply it hadn't been painted since nationalisation ? I know Weymouth had a 1366 pannier still with GWR on the tanks in the late 50's and IIRC what I was told that was still in green under all the clag.

 

Stu

[jjnewitt]

I seem to remember that tender came up in a thread on here at some point but I can't remember what the thread was about. It looks like it's in plain black? Interesting that it lasted like that until such a late date. You would have thought that it would have been painted at some point since nationalisation. The locomotive definately saw a coat or two of paint during the BR era.

[Bill]

Thanks for that run..

The model comes from Finescale Brass...

http://www.finescale...d/gwr-manor.htm

 

So I am trusting that they gave San Cheng the right data...

Apparently it was the model that got reviewed with glowing praise in Model Rail

The vendor is of the opinion that the reviewer is the complete GWR enthusiast and knows his stuff down to the last rivet and well approved the lined version..

Which is quite different from the tale that is unfolding in this thread -

As it is bit difficult to paint out lining already applied without stripping it all down and starting from scratch -

(My airbrushing technique is best described by the term Messers Drips, Bodges and Runs)

I really would not wish to change anything.

Maybe it got a repaint and re-appeared lined black after it was tested for the improved draughting?

[Karhedron]

I really would not wish to change anything.

Maybe it got a repaint and re-appeared lined black after it was tested for the improved draughting?

Sounds to me like time to invoke the 1st rule of railway modelling.

 

It's your railway and you can run what you like!

 

Been having a look at http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwrhj104.htm and wonder if I'm seeing things but it looks like a G and a W on the tender. If so and going by the info above rather brings the date into question.

I can see what you mean, it does look like there is something under all that grime although whether it is a W or not I am not certain. One thing to remember is that these locos did have the tenders swapped around from time to time and the finish of the loco did not always match the finish of the tender.

 

Which brings me too...

 

It's not out of the question that the tender had G W R still on it at that time. There's one that made it all the way to 1965 and ended up behind 7816.

http://www.flickr.co...N05/5702915274/

Frilsham Manor is a fairly famous example that has been reproduced by more than one manufacturer. That Churchward 3500 gallon tender was something of a pet of Reading Shed and had previously been paired with Mogul 6324. When that was withdrawn in 1962, it was paired with Frilsham Manor for a couple of years. If you look closely at the cab-sides, you can see there is BR lining under the grime so this is an example of mismatched loco and tender. One story is that the tender was in fact repainted but that the coat started to flake off revealing the GWR lettering underneath. Enthusiastic cleaners then "helped" reveal the rest of it. I don't know if the story is true but it would explain the more modern features like the electrification flashes.

[Karhedron]

It would be interesting to see a picture of 7804 pre 1957, you'd have thought that there would be some around somewhere particularly if she was the designated Cornish Riviera Express pilot for a time.

I have contacted the photographic archives at the Kidderminster railway museum. Baydon Manor does seem to have been timorous wee beastie as they have only a handful of shots in their collection from the period. I have ruled out the shots from 1954 onwards when she was sent to Camarthen. By then there is a good chance she had been repainted black. In either case, the thumbnails provided seem to show a loco in uniform dirt.

 

There are some shots of the loco head-on which don't show much of the livery. That leaves just 2 from 1952 of it on pilot duty in Cornwall. I have ordered copies of these and hopefully one or the other will be clear enough to show the details of the livery and tender markings.

[jjnewitt]

I have contacted the photographic archives at the Kidderminster railway museum. Baydon Manor does seem to have been timorous wee beastie as they have only a handful of shots in their collection from the period. I have ruled out the shots from 1954 onwards when she was sent to Camarthen. By then there is a good chance she had been repainted black. In either case, the thumbnails provided seem to show a loco in uniform dirt.

 

There are some shots of the loco head-on which don't show much of the livery. That leaves just 2 from 1952 of it on pilot duty in Cornwall. I have ordered copies of these and hopefully one or the other will be clear enough to show the details of the livery and tender markings.

Well done! Let us know what the photos show. I managed to have a further look through Peto's Register a little earlier and it suggests that 7804 was repainted unlined green in July 1948 which suggests the tender would have had British Railways written on it.

 

I managed to track down a couple of photographs of 7818 around the time of the draughting experiments. One can be found in 'Collett and Hawksworth Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape and shows 7818 at Swindon in unlined black complete with all sorts of testing gear and a very funny chimney. The second was in Peto's Register and shows her immediately after the experiments were concluded, again at swindon, with it's original chimney back on and in plain black. If she was repainted in lined black then it would have been after that, obviously and pre November 1956 when she recieved the lined green livery. Apart from being stopped for repair at Worcester and Tysley a couple of times in the period the only opertunity for a repaint would have been during the course of a heavy intermediate repair at Swindon in April 1954. I couldn't find any photos of her between 1954 and 1957. It's not impossible that she got lined black, a couple of Granges got the lining by mistake but I don't think they were painted at Swindon. It seems unlikely that Swindon would have made that mistake but you never know. As you say Bill it seems odd that no one picked up on the mistake if she never wore lined black.

Those O gauge models look very tasty. Sprung wheels to boot, right up my street! Seem quite reasonably priced as well for what they are.

I remembered that the lined black ex GWR manor model that I mentioned earlier on the JLTRT website was of 7819 Hinton Manor. She wore that livery in preservation however.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

As both the Grange and Manor classes were given the BR 5MT classification then the 1949 to 1956 BR livery should have been lined black.

It seems to me that Swindon did not want to put lining on locos that weren't lined out in GWR days. Possibly because of the extra work and hence cost at overhauls.

Other examples are the 31xx/41xx/51xx/61xx/81xx prairies, 43xx/53xx/63xx/73xx/93xx moguls and 90xx 4-4-0s all of which should all have been lined black but very few were done.

 

But then from 1956 they reversed this position, went mad with "Modernisation" money and painted lined green virtually anything which could be regarded as a passenger loco:

14xx, 54xx, 64xx, 56xx/66xx, small and large prairies, moguls, 22xx/32xx 0-6-0s, std 4 and 5 4-6-0s, std 3 2-6-2T and Evening Star.

 

[Bill]

The research continues -

I came across this site ....

http://www.rcts.org....n=&srch=&page=0

 

It is hard to make out whether or not any particular loco is lined or not as they are only thumbnails and have been heavily water marked -

 

However it provides a good photographic record of a few Manors both of GWR and BR manufacture in the early 1950's...

I think it is worth pursuing this and I am in the process of acquiring some of their images as they are only a quid a pop..

I'll let you know when they arrive..

 

And whilst at it here is picture of the Finescale Brass Manor 7823..

https://www.model-ra...ass_Manor_1.jpg

 

Should not the route indicator disc above the cabin side number plate be Blue?

[Dukedog]

"Should not the route indicator disc above the cabin side number plate be Blue?"

Yes it should

 

Looking at the picture it looks a decent enough model but at the sort of price you are expected to pay I would have thought they would have got silly things like that right.

Some one has obviously not done their homework!

 

Cheers

Frank

[Karhedron]

Looking at the picture it looks a decent enough model but at the sort of price you are expected to pay I would have thought they would have got silly things like that right.

Some one has obviously not done their homework!

One of the recent Dapol Halls came out with a Blue route indicator disc. An impressive achievement to get just one wrong when the rest were correct. It is one of those things that is obvious to us as GWR fans but perhaps does not register with manufacturers just doing it for a job.

 

The research continues -

I came across this site ....

http://www.rcts.org....n=&srch=&page=0

Nice find but once again 7804 seems to be missing. I wonder why this loco was so rarely photographed.