Ian_B Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Guys, I'm wanting to signal my layout and it was suggested that someone might be able to assist me if I posted a track plan in the forum. The diagram shows the two bay platforms at the end of the station canopy. A three track servicing point and a diverging single track branch line with a catch point guarding entry to the main lines.. On the right hand side the track opens out to a four track main line. A single slip allows access to and from the branch with a double slip allowing trains on the inward slow line to cross into the bay platforms. I guess that the bay platforms will have two aspect Starters on them, but what else should there be on this arrangement of tracks? Ian_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissRailPassion Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 There are many wise heads here who I'm sure will help. Perhaps the stationmaster will be tempted to have a look when he's off duty? Could you let us know the date/era of operation and the region. http://www.weymouthmra.org.uk/modelling/layout-design/part-3/ Try this link for help with layout track design Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Intended period is Era 9 Region - north of England. I don't know if haveing OLE changes anything - I wouldn't have thought it would, but I know so little - which is why I asked. Having a look at the weblink you included. Thanks Ian_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2012 You have too many slips, there would be a trailing crossover to the left of where you have the single and a facing to the left of where you have the double, giving the same flexibility (a bit more in actual fact) but without the slips - they are complex and expensive on the big railway, and tend to be avoided except where necessary due to space considerations. Is it too late to alter the track plan ? Can you give us some idea of the size of the layout ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2012 Intended period is Era 9 Region - north of England. I don't know if haveing OLE changes anything - I wouldn't have thought it would, but I know so little - which is why I asked. Having a look at the weblink you included. Thanks Ian_B Remember signals on lines with OHLE need safety cages of some sort. Depending on the era they can be quite skimpy or have enough metalwork to look like the forth bridge. Also electrification would normally co-incide with simplification and rationalisation of the track layout - again the more recent the works, the simpler the track layout tends to be. As for the bay platform starters, they will usually have the same number of aspects as those fitted to the main line, although three aspect starters and four aspects on the main lines can be found. Remember a red / green signal cannot directly be followed by another red / green signal - you must eather have a yellow / green repeater between them or the 2nd signal be a three aspect signal, in which case the two aspect starter must be resricted so that it will not show a green untill the three aspect signal is displaying either a proceed aspect (yellow or a green) thus avoiding the red onto green scenario Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahorse Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 How far have you got with the layout? I think you will find the station throat is very congested - you effectively have single line working between the platform ends and the four-track junction. With colour-lights, you can get way with comparatively few, as they are widely spaced. So for outbound, one for each platform, one for the branch, and one for fast and slow at the right hand end. For inbound one for the branch, one each each for fast and slow before the junction with theatre indicators for platform number. Everything else is shunting signals - for every movement, a signal to tell the train to stop, and another to authorise it to move. If you've already laid your track, try a full intensive operating session with all the shunting moves. This will tell you where you need shunting signals. If you're still planning, draw it out as large as your dining table, and simulate an operating session with cards fot trains, and allow yourself time to change all the points and signals. There are a lot of conflicting movements, and you may be able to vary the plan to reduce them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2012 How far have you got with the layout? I think you will find the station throat is very congested - you effectively have single line working between the platform ends and the four-track junction. See my post above, if it doesn't show up, warm it in front of the fire. With colour-lights, you can get way with comparatively few, as they are widely spaced. So for outbound, one for each platform, one for the branch, and one for fast and slow at the right hand end. For inbound one for the branch, one each each for fast and slow before the junction with theatre indicators for platform number. Spacing depends on line speed and capacity requirements, around Knottingley the signal spacing is very close, it's 4-aspect but line speeds are low. you cannot possibly say how many will suffice until we know how big the layout is, the reason I ask such questions is because the answers will alter what signalling is needed. Everything else is shunting signals - for every movement, a signal to tell the train to stop, and another to authorise it to move. If you've already laid your track, try a full intensive operating session with all the shunting moves. This will tell you where you need shunting signals. Not really, the shunt moves are determined by what's required to allow all the moves required, not necessarily only those used during an operating session, the OP may not realise he's actually making illegal moves. (as far as the prototype would be concerned) If you're still planning, draw it out as large as your dining table, and simulate an operating session with cards fot trains, and allow yourself time to change all the points and signals. There are a lot of conflicting movements, and you may be able to vary the plan to reduce them. Why ? - it it's colour light then a route setting panel should be (ideally) used, or maybe an OCS, the number of points / in route signals really makes no odds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Thanks for the replies. The layout was constrained (as everyones is, I suppose) by the available space. The section drawn out on the track plan is on an L shaped base two feet wide and some fourteen feet long. The corner falls between the point onto the branch and the pointwork where the line goes to four tracks. (the two outer lines are linked by a hidden loop whilst the two inner lines feed onto a helical incine and into a hidden fiddle yard. Trackwork is complete and senic work is proceeding (slowly). It's because of the space constraints that I used the slips, otherwise I would have gone for points, but needs must.... I plotted out all intended movements when I did the design and the pointwork permits me to make all the movements needed. I spotted the single line worling to the bay platforms, but I couldn't fit the pointwork any closer due to the shape of the boards - that's life I suppose. So, Am I correct in believing that I should have 3 aspect starters on the two bay platforms with a three or four aspect at the end of the platform on the main followed by a 4 aspect with feathers indicating the main or the branch. A four with feathers preceeding the transition to Fouttrack main? Coming the other way - the fast and slow lines entering the station should each have a 4 aspect with feathers - should these have some sort of platform indicator on them? Likewise the branch a three or four aspect with a platform indicator? A three or four aspect preceeding the pointwork at the servicing point. Should there be ground signals within the Servicing point or just a singal signal at the exit to the main lines? Does the catch point need a signal of any sort? I assume the signal to exit the branch should be positioned before the catch point? Can anyone tell me what the criteria are for placing SPAD signals? Do I need one on the branch? Ian_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2012 Slow down, you will get there - and it will be right in the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks for the replies. The layout was constrained (as everyones is, I suppose) by the available space. The section drawn out on the track plan is on an L shaped base two feet wide and some fourteen feet long. The corner falls between the point onto the branch and the pointwork where the line goes to four tracks. (the two outer lines are linked by a hidden loop whilst the two inner lines feed onto a helical incine and into a hidden fiddle yard. Trackwork is complete and senic work is proceeding (slowly). It's because of the space constraints that I used the slips, otherwise I would have gone for points, but needs must.... I plotted out all intended movements when I did the design and the pointwork permits me to make all the movements needed. I spotted the single line worling to the bay platforms, but I couldn't fit the pointwork any closer due to the shape of the boards - that's life I suppose. So, Am I correct in believing that I should have 3 aspect starters on the two bay platforms with a three or four aspect at the end of the platform on the main followed by a 4 aspect with feathers indicating the main or the branch. A four with feathers preceeding the transition to Fouttrack main? Coming the other way - the fast and slow lines entering the station should each have a 4 aspect with feathers - should these have some sort of platform indicator on them? Likewise the branch a three or four aspect with a platform indicator? A three or four aspect preceeding the pointwork at the servicing point. Should there be ground signals within the Servicing point or just a singal signal at the exit to the main lines? Does the catch point need a signal of any sort? I assume the signal to exit the branch should be positioned before the catch point? Can anyone tell me what the criteria are for placing SPAD signals? Do I need one on the branch? Ian_B When deciding where to place signals a lot basically depends on the distances between each section of pointwork, however the general principle (and there are exceptions - but I don't think they are relavent here) is that a signal section should be able to acomadate one complete train plus the required safety overlap. Based on your diagram and comments there is not enough space for this to occur on the layout proposed so you do not need as many signals as you might think. Begining with the platform starting signals, these would all be equiped with 2 feather indicators (top-left and left as you look at them). These indicate a route set into the loop (top-left) or a route set onto the branch (Left) while a proceed aspect and no feather indicates a route set down the main. The sigal coiming off the branch, and indeed both those located before the loop ends would also have feathers but this time to the top-right & right indicating the route had been set into the bay platforms while no feather indicates a route set into the main platform. A variation on this idea is to use alpha-numeric indicators (theatre indicators) on the bay platform starters, the signal coming off the branch and possably the one controlling the exit from the loop line. With theatre indicators however all routes must be given an indication (i.e. 'B', 'M', or 'L' for the bay starters and '1', '2'or '3' from the loop). Theatre indicators do have a speed restriction (max 40mph IIRC) on their use though hence they are normally not used with the main line signals where 'feathers' are prefered. As to the choice between four and three aspect signaling, that depends on personal choice and perhaps more importantly NE region practice - others on the fourm will be able to advise on this. With regard to SPAD signals - I would ignore them for now as in the real world they were used relativley sparingly and today TPWS has made them redundent One thing though - whats going on with the lines to the left of your diagram. I am assuming they carry on based on you description of the bay platforms as being 'beyond the canopy' coupled with the loops on the right. Are we talking about a station with stagered platforms (on the mainline that is) or is something else going on? Anyway here is a suggestion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Phil, Thanks for the information, Is the triangular symbol at the bottom of the signal a theatre indicator? You asked what was beyond the end of the plan (marked with the ?) The lines are disguised beneath a Station canopy and some buildings but form a loop with an entry to another decending Helical incine serving the other end of the fiddle yard. The three lines below the bay platforms are a servicing point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2012 I it 2mm (N) or 4mm (OO) ? - the distance from the platform ends to the 4 track section is significant in deciding where and what to signal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 4mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2012 4mm And the other question(s) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2012 Phil, Thanks for the information, Is the triangular symbol at the bottom of the signal a theatre indicator? You asked what was beyond the end of the plan (marked with the ?) The lines are disguised beneath a Station canopy and some buildings but form a loop with an entry to another decending Helical incine serving the other end of the fiddle yard. The three lines below the bay platforms are a servicing point. The triangle symbol is either a shunt signal (two resd horizontally or two whites at 45 degrees when cleared) if it is on its own or a call on / shunt signal (two whites at 45 degrees when cleared, blank when at danger) when attached to a main signal Also thanks for the info regarding whats going on at ?, however when trying to come up with a signalling diagram it is far better to draw out the track layout as if it would appear in real life even if you have no intention of modeling it. For example based on what youi have posted thus far I assume that we have a second mainline platform somewhere off secene giving a station with stagered platforms. This may well have an influence on sigali positions so it would be helpfull to know whats going on in this area, even if it will not be modeled. Oh yes and I did forget a feather on my earlier diagram, this allows a route to be set into the main line platform where a train can then reverse to access the branch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 The Canopy and station buildings are intended to convey the impression of a pair of platforms one either side of the dual track.thus:- The intention was to convey the impression of a slightly larger station, but I didn't have the room to add a double canopy. Ian_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2012 You can use edit. to delete the extra one. With due respect to Phil, it's not right but if you aren't going to bother answering my questions I will leave you to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_B Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 You can use edit. to delete the extra one. With due respect to Phil, it's not right but if you aren't going to bother answering my questions I will leave you to it. Sorry Beast, You asked me the scale and I said it was 4mm. You said <Quote> - the distance from the platform ends to the 4 track section is significant in deciding where and what to signal. <endquote> Did you want to know the distances? Only that was phased as a statement. Was there another question I have missed? Thanks for the tip on editing the post. I was trying to correct that in the full editor and it didn't seem to work. Apologies if I have offended Ian_B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2012 The Canopy and station buildings are intended to convey the impression of a pair of platforms one either side of the dual track.thus:- The intention was to convey the impression of a slightly larger station, but I didn't have the room to add a double canopy. Ian_B Ok thanks for posting that, however in my opnion you need to think carefully about the stabling point exit and asociated crossover, in particular where it is in relation to the platforms. I say this because it is not normal practice to have mid platform crossovers on main lines unless it cannot be avoided (and before I get shouted down I know there are exceptions) so I would move it towards the branch junction. I have outlined a couple of options below however you may want to consider swaping the stabling sidings round too if you have room Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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