Platform Length vs Train Length

[Matloughe]

Good Afternoon,

 

I have been doing some work on my layout today and it occurs to me that I can probably fit an extra coach onto an 'express' train with a pacific on in my platform if the locomotive overhangs a little. This has given me some food for thought - how common would this practice have been in days gone by. My problem is my only real basis for knowledge is the books I have, if I see several photos of Bulleid Pacifics overhanging the end of platforms at Waterloo - it looks like common practice but photos don't always tell the full story do they...

 

So I am opening the floor. Because I am still in the process of working out platform lengths etc its not a problem to extend them - but regardless I am curious to know what the practice was in past times. Are the few photos I've seen an odditity or regular occurrence or is it simply one train was heavily loaded and it was photographed more often then others.

 

Many Thanks,

~ Gary

[Glorious NSE]

Through station or terminus?

 

If it's through then no problem at all...lots of places had trains call that were longer than the platforms (some still do to this day)

 

Terminus might start to give you some issues with signalling and point locations??

[Fenman]

You used the phrase "in days gone by", which gives me lots of latitude to introduce 1970s/80s King's Lynn-Liverpool Street InterCity services. These usually used standard rakes of 9 Mk2s, but the main platform at the King's Lynn terminus only took 8; the 9th coach and loco (usually a Class 37) always overhung the end.

 

The train itself stopped (sometimes as a request stop) at relatively tiny stations, most memorably for me "Magdalen Road" (now more prosaically renamed Watlington). There was a severe overhang (can't remember how much) and you certainly had to travel in the correct part of the train if you wanted to alight.

 

Lots of BR(SR) services on the SW mainline similarly involved big overhangs once the trains got into the NEw Forest and beyond.

 

Paul

[Matloughe]

In my case its an urban terminus, Southern Region/Railway.

 

I can remember in the days of Mark I Stock travelling to Ifield on the Mid-Sussex line you'd have to travel in the front 4-Coaches - strange how you forget these things but even just a few years ago it was commonplace and you did it every day without thinking.

 

What I am thinking of doing is extending the platform to accept 5 Mark I coaches this would leave a Pacific with a little bit of the front end hanging off rather then a massive overhang. But I am genuinely interested in the subject as well.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Oldddudders]

You even see pics of trains cheerfully standing with the loco past the starter signal at danger, where track-circuiting etc permitted. And Charing Cross platform 6 for years could not get 12 cars on, despite seeing trains of that length every day - is that urban enough?!

[10800]

I seem to remember that in such cases the loco would back onto the train as late as practicable to minimise any 'fouling' time.

[edcayton]

Which brings us to another interesting current thread about loco's backing stock into platforms!

 

Ed

[TheSignalEngineer]

Colour light platform starters were provided with back side 'OFF' indicators and route indicators in cases where locos stood out. There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Glasgow Queen Street layout thread.

[Guest stuartp]

The unwillingness to run overlength trains dates back to the early 1990s, anything before that should be ok. The 1990s change followed pressure from HMRI after a passenger stepped out of a charter train of Mk1 stock at Mirfield (I think), cleared a bridge parapet and landed in the road below. It wasn't banned but additional risk assessments and controls were required - stewarding on charters, trainside attendance, locking off doors, etc.

 

The overheight railings on the road bridge at Armathwaite immediately south of the platforms suggest that this was not a new problem, no doubt there are other examples.

[BR60103]

In Canada, this happens (or happened) with the GO trains as trains were lengthened but platforms couldn't be (or not quickly enough). I think 12 car trains were run on 10 car platforms. The GO trains have centrally controlled doors so there should be no problem with passengers getting off the wrong ones. (The guard would have to travel through the train as (I think) the door controls do al doors this side of the button.

Newfoundland was reputed to have trains that stopped at each station twice. Or were they so long they stopped at 2 stations at the same time?

[edcayton]

I can certainly remember being on trains that had to "draw forward" to enable access/egress to all coaches.

 

Ed

[Matloughe]

Thank you all for your help!

 

From what I can gather provided the signalling allows - it doesn't matter what length the train is in relation to the platform. I am thinking for operational interest following the idea of the pilot brings the coaches to the platform then a little while prior to departure the train engine backs down. I shall arrange the signalling to try & keep in mind the locomotive will end up with the starter ahead of it. It will only really affect the odd Steam Express I am intending to do as MU's will be handling the majority of the suburban traffic.

 

Yes I am off to look at the other thread presently as they are related to an extent in the operation of stations.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[scotcent]

The North British was notoriously mean about platform lengths; Cowdenbeath, which I knew well, could take only 5 or 6 coaches in the platforms, and drawing up was normal with Inverness trains, which were always longer than this. It caused a deal of panic amongst strangers. There is a story, which may be apocryphal, that during the blackout a navyman stepped unknowingly off the rear portion of a train onto the parapet of the adjacent road bridge, then walked, still unknowing, along onto the platform (which is about the same height).

 

In days of semaphore signals it was freqently the case that a locomotive would overlap the signal, subject to track circuits and fouling points. certainly most steam loco drivers would take the loco beyond the end of the platform to ensure that the other end of the train was on the platform. Semaphore signals could be read from both sides. Glasgow Queen St was a particular case, with relatively short platforms (for a main line terminus) and always a banker at the buffer stops. I used to watch the "North Briton" (4.0 pm) Leeds leaving, and the loco was almost always well into the tunnel. I was under the impression, though, that there was some sort of repeater / advanced starter to deal with this situation.

 

Allan F

[Gwiwer]

There were (and are) many instances of trains longer than platforms. Currently Selective Door Opening is one of the common methods used to manage this. In the time of Bulleid light Pacifics there were specific working instructions at Waterloo for starting trains in advance of fixed signals which allowed for these moves to occur in accordance with those rules. Much the same has occurred elsewhere. At a through station the starting signal must be cleared for any part of the train to run past it. In many cases the section ahead was protected by the advanced starter. At a terminus the arrangements would be specified in the local rules or appendix but it certainly was a regualr occurrence.