Is it right?

[Ray H]

I'd welcome comments on the attached - I've not bothered to number the points and the signal numbers are simply there to make reference easier.

 

Signals 12, 13 and 14 are off layout.

 

Would I be correct to presume that the double discs could be replace with single discs reading over either route?

 

Someone has suggested that as bracket signals were expensive, mounting arms on a single post was preferred. Could I do this with 1, 2 and 3? If so, as signals normally read anti-clockwise from the top, this would put the shunt arm at the top of the post. That doesn't seem right.

[beast66606]

The answers really depend on what company and when.

 

1/2/3 would probably be a balanced bracket with a ground signal to the left.

 

Some companies replaced stacked dummies with singles, the GWR for example, some (generally) didn't, the LMS.

 

Your double disc in the yard should be yellow (or your chosen companies equivalent) and the ones from the goods shed and the headshunt can go, they wouldn't be provided.

 

The home for the main line arrivals should be next to the double disc (which would actually be single), right at the toe of the point, the branch home would be close to the point also.

 

You need trap points on the loco / carriage sidings.

 

The loco release crossover would be worked from a ground frame (or the cabin), and not by hand.

 

hth

[micknich2003]

No 13 reads on to a Discs 10 and 11, I thought this was not accepted practice, certainly not in later years. Mick.

[beast66606]

No 13 reads on to a Discs 10 and 11, I thought this was not accepted practice, certainly not in later years. Mick.

 

Invisible ink Mick?

 

The home for the main line arrivals should be next to the double disc (which would actually be single), right at the toe of the point, the branch home would be close to the point also.

 

[micknich2003]

Beast, it's the North South divide, the ink gets lost in the Humber. Mick.

[Ray H]

Thanks for the comments

 

I've modified the drawing as per the way I understand your sugestions. Have I got it right?

 

I forgot to say that the lay of the points in the original was not necessarily correct, but I hope that I've sorted that now.

 

The area is supposed to be in the Midlands/North with an LM bias circa 1960s.

 

My reason for placing the home signals remote from the station was to allow movements within the station area whilst a train was approaching as per what I recall as Regulation 4. Would there be an outer home for this or didn't they have outer homes on single lines?

 

Was it permissible in semaphore days to clear a "home" signal for movements into an occupied platform as would occur when a loco was running round? That's why I had two discs.

 

I'd put all the track down and wired everything up before I realised that I'd overlooked the catch points from the loco shed - I even had the catch point in stock! I investigated a retrofit but there just wasn't space without relaying everything.

 

Could the (home) signal post be situated between the Main line and the headshunt which are so close to each other? I presumed that a bracket signal would be needed here. In that case would the disc be ground mounted between the Main line and the headshunt and the home on the bracket or would the disc be replaced by a shunt arm on the bracket?

[beast66606]

I've modified the drawing as per the way I understand your sugestions. Have I got it right?

 

I'd put all the track down and wired everything up before I realised that I'd overlooked the catch points from the loco shed - I even had the catch point in stock! I investigated a retrofit but there just wasn't space without relaying everything.

 

Not quite, the trap point on the carriage / loco shed siding is still missing, as you've already laid the track you could put some dummy rails to give a representation of a trap. The signals numbered 2 and 3 would be the same height, the speed restriction on leaving the station would generally outweigh any preference to the "Main/Branch" differential height signalling, so they would be balanced to discourage faster starts for the main line - see below for comments on 6 and 7.

 

I forgot to say that the lay of the points in the original was not necessarily correct, but I hope that I've sorted that now.

 

The lie (sic) of the points depends on several factors, gradient, importance of route etc, the normal route would probably, all things being equal, be from the main to the platform.

 

The area is supposed to be in the Midlands/North with an LM bias circa 1960s.

 

A good choice.

 

My reason for placing the home signals remote from the station was to allow movements within the station area whilst a train was approaching as per what I recall as Regulation 4. Would there be an outer home for this or didn't they have outer homes on single lines?

 

Outer homes did exist on single lines, and as you say were provided for acceptance purposes, but you need to look at what conflicting moves you have, shunting is clear of the line for the yard, the other sidings would only be accessed for a departure or after an arrival, it's also possible to use the run round as an overlap, but unlikely.

 

Was it permissible in semaphore days to clear a "home" signal for movements into an occupied platform as would occur when a loco was running round? That's why I had two discs.

 

An LMS station would likely have calling on arms (short arms) under the home signals - 6 & 7.

 

Could the (home) signal post be situated between the Main line and the headshunt which are so close to each other? I presumed that a bracket signal would be needed here. In that case would the disc be ground mounted between the Main line and the headshunt and the home on the bracket or would the disc be replaced by a shunt arm on the bracket?

 

On a single track it's likely that both signals would be to the right of the single line if space is tight, a bracket would be possible but an expense for a secondary line.

 

hth

[Ray H]

Many thanks for the further comments.

 

My thought was that with a train approaching on one line I would envisagea requirement to run round a train that will then be a departure via the other line - I certainly expect to be doing this from time to time.

 

I'd left the branch home remote from the station as there is little if any perceived use of the branch for anything other than arrival and departure moves i.e. no shunting - hence the absence of an advanced starting signal here.

 

I presume the calling on arm would be below the home signal on the main and the disc on the ground, both on the right? My thinking was that positioning on the left of the line (via a bracket) potentially aids sighting as a train approaches.

 

I like the idea of the dummy catch point. I think there's just room to squeeze something in even though the toe of shed point is only just over an inch from the heel of the platform line point.

 

I'll try an post a few pictures later of progress so far if anyone is interested.

[The Stationmaster]

I'll let Beast carry on where he has advised you about various things (I fully agree with all of it anyway) and comment only on the Advanced Starter and Outer Home bit. You are in a situation where you can only receive a passenger train from one direction or the other the way you have platform and the signals currently arranged so you are will not normally be required to accept two towards your station simultaneously - which takes away almost all the justification for Outer Home Signals.

 

The only purpose of an Advanced Starter at smaller single line stations was almost inevitably as a limiting point for shunting or, exceptionally, for train regulating/line capacity. In you case you are only looking at one as a limiting 'reminder' for the Driver of a shunting move. therefore you are most likely to have one on the line on which shunting regularly takes place onto the single line - and it looks that you have got that spot on as things stand.

[Ray H]

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding things but can I clarify two things please?

 

A train arrives from the Main. It runs round and will subsequently return from whence it came. However, before it does so, a train is offered along the Branch, towards the terminus. I thought that under regulation 4 it would not be possible to accept the Branch train with the platform occupied unless the Branch home signal was at least ¼ mile back from the point work.

 

Similarly, if a train was departing from the platform along the Branch line after a train had been accepted along the Main, with the points set from Main to the loop in case of home signal over-run, my understanding of regulation 4 is that the train on the Main must come to a stand at the home signal before the points could be changed to allow it to run into the platform?

 

I'm not nit-picking, just trying to confirm whether my somewhat ancient knowledge of regulation 4 is a bit rustier than I thought.

[The Stationmaster]

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding things but can I clarify two things please?

 

A train arrives from the Main. It runs round and will subsequently return from whence it came. However, before it does so, a train is offered along the Branch, towards the terminus. I thought that under regulation 4 it would not be possible to accept the Branch train with the platform occupied unless the Branch home signal was at least ¼ mile back from the point work.

 

Similarly, if a train was departing from the platform along the Branch line after a train had been accepted along the Main, with the points set from Main to the loop in case of home signal over-run, my understanding of regulation 4 is that the train on the Main must come to a stand at the home signal before the points could be changed to allow it to run into the platform?

 

I'm not nit-picking, just trying to confirm whether my somewhat ancient knowledge of regulation 4 is a bit rustier than I thought.

 

Your understanding is correct - partly. The 'partly' relates to acceptances on single lines post 1962 which at a terminus required the line to be clear to the stop blocks (although the 'box Special Instructions could modify that). Thus technically you could only accept a train from either route with the platform empty. If you add an Outer Home you can then accept with the line clear to the Home Signal (provided the Outer Home is at least 440 yards from the Home of course) and no worry about the setting of the points as the train will only run as far as the Outer Home Signal.

 

So the question is - will the line be that busy (and if it is then your Outer Homes would, in the average British house, be in the next room).

[Ray H]

Snip!

 

So the question is - will the line be that busy (and if it is then your Outer Homes would, in the average British house, be in the next room).

 

I'd get too bored with the layout if it wasn't that busy (and the next room is the bedroom so the Outer Homes can sit on the dressing table)!

 

I do certainly see the requirement for trains to depart from the previous block post prior to the terminal's preceeding departure to the other line having left the platform or any shunting being completed.