Lochty no more Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society is currently overhauling an NBR lattice post signal, on the hunt for a signal weight in a shipping container we found this There apears to be a miniture signal arm joined by a linkage to the signal weight, my first thought was it a repeater for a fog signalman possibly on a tall lattice post, but on second thoughts he would be able to tell whether the signal was on or off by the position of the weight. the casting on one end of the miniture arm shows "Stevens & Sons Glasgow",on the casting The face is enameled red with a white stripe 3" from the end The reverse side is white with a black stripe 3"from the end the reverse of the arm dismantled The cast plate is also interesting,as it has the number 61 cast on it and two additional bolt holes. All the other examples we have have the number 61B cast on them and have 4 lugs cast on the reverse side for locating against the lattice post. The hole in the centre of the miniture arm is 1" in diameter and must have fitted on to a fitting on the lattice post, however we have no idea of what it looked like. We have calculated the hight of the miniture arm as 6 foot above ground level ( about eye level ). If anybody can tell us what it is or better still has a photograph we would be delighted to hear from you. The history of this is unknown to us, but we belive it was aquired from the Signal & Telegraph depot at Ladybank in Fife when it closed in the late 70`s. It is also possible that it was mounted at 90 degrees to the signal arm on the post, as that is the orientation as we found it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think you're right, it is a repeater, but for the driver at a very tall post. It's a minature stop signal, fogsignalmen would be positioned at distant signals (usually). The driver could also tell the position of the arm from the position of the balance weight but that's not the point - he obeys the arm not the ancilliary bits. Some colour lights had something similar - 'pigs ears' at the side of the signal head which relayed the aspect to a driver standing too close to see the main beam. I should add that this is a guess, I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think you're right, it is a repeater, but for the driver at a very tall post. It's a minature stop signal, fogsignalmen would be positioned at distant signals (usually). The driver could also tell the position of the arm from the position of the balance weight but that's not the point - he obeys the arm not the ancilliary bits. Some colour lights had something similar - 'pigs ears' at the side of the signal head which relayed the aspect to a driver standing too close to see the main beam. I should add that this is a guess, I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Given that it`s not illuminated, possibly a tall signal above a station canopy? - the station would be illuminated anyway, If Stevens went to the lenth of producing a casting for this repeater it must have been common not an isolated one off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Possibly, it could be for station staff or the guard in those circumstances. It's fascinating, whatever it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 I'd go with the fog signal, probably a small concentration of them, slightly removed from the relevant signal, with either several levers working det placers or a single fogman doing it the hard way. I have photos of some which existed at March on the Eastern and back in my other house I have a pair of similar sized home and distant "arms" The home signals could be fogged if poor visibilty and high SPAD risk, or the distant arms could be fogged, but the repeater would be part of a miniature reproduction of the whole structure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Possibly, it could be for station staff or the guard in those circumstances. It's fascinating, whatever it is. I agree but how can nobody have knowledge or photographic evidence of what must have been something relatively common, Did Stevens supply this to the Caledonian or other railway companies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 I agree but how can nobody have knowledge or photographic evidence of what must have been something relatively common, Did Stevens supply this to the Caledonian or other railway companies? I have photos of some which existed at March on the Eastern and back in my other house I have a pair of similar sized home and distant "arms" Invisible ink ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Invisible ink ? It would be great if you could post them, detail of how they are fixed to the signal post is the missing link, we could possibly fashion the missing parts from a photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 It would be great if you could post them, detail of how they are fixed to the signal post is the missing link, we could possibly fashion the missing parts from a photo. If only it were so easy, my photos are also a couple of hundred miles away and not scanned. The ones at March were free standing, rather than post mounted so not identical, although the arms look very similar, possibly the difference is the ones I saw were (100% certain) fog signals, but yours could be a drivers repeater, saying that yours could still be mounted on a different post from the main arm, thus a fog signalman would need the arm repeating - as per my description. Mick Nick has a lot of manufacturers catalogs so may be able to supply further information, which he no doubt will, if he is able, when he sees this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 If only it were so easy, my photos are also a couple of hundred miles away and not scanned. The ones at March were free standing, rather than post mounted so not identical, although the arms look very similar, possibly the difference is the ones I saw were (100% certain) fog signals, but yours could be a drivers repeater, saying that yours could still be mounted on a different post from the main arm, thus a fog signalman would need the arm repeating - as per my description. Mick Nick has a lot of manufacturers catalogs so may be able to supply further information, which he no doubt will, if he is able, when he sees this thread. Great stuff, If anyone can solve this riddle it`s RMwebbers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Now that we have managed to free up all the parts,we laid everything in position on a lattice post to get some understanding of how it might have worked.The miniture signal arm is 6 feet from ground level,and operates as the main signal is pulled on.The miniture arm is on the side of the signal post facing away from the running lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I go for it being a "Fog Repeater". I don't have a Stevens catoluge only S&F and M&H. Changing subject, does anyone no the where about of an Evans O Donnell signalling cat? Thanks, Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 I go for it being a "Fog Repeater". I don't have a Stevens catoluge only S&F and M&H. Changing subject, does anyone no the where about of an Evans O Donnell signalling cat? Thanks, Mick. I tend to agree it`s a "Fog Repeater", but I wonder could it have been fitted to a signal doll rather than a tall lattice. Examination of the cast plate shows two additional holes have been drilled on the plate and the four cast locating lugs on the reverse side have been knocked off both of which would indicate it was not fitted to an 11" lattice post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 I think I may have solved this - it`s not an NBR miniture fog signal at all, it`s an early daytime ground signal ( C1890 ) a fellow member of the KFRPS found this photo, which given the location is clearly not a fog signal. and given the lack of a lamp must only have been used in daytime We belive the signal came from the S&T department at Ladybank when it closed in the 1970`s, the speculation is that it may have come from the "Newburgh & North of Fife Railway,( N&NFR ) .which although operated by the NBR remained an independant company up until the grouping in 1923. With this photograph we can now make a ground signal and use it at our yard in Leven, does anybody know of an other example in existance? The restored signal arm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 That's fascinating, I don't remember seeing anything like that before. But it looks like it might be a points indicator, rather than an independently-worked signal? Either way, great job on finding that photo! Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 That's fascinating, I don't remember seeing anything like that before. But it looks like it might be a points indicator, rather than an independently-worked signal? Either way, great job on finding that photo! Graham Yeah Pete Westwater is as good as a bloodhound, the arm with the ballance weight is non standard one leg operated the ground signal, via the operating rod,the lenth of chain must have operated something else ( via a wheel ) but what is still a mystery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Don't you think the chain on that 90-degree crank would simply be for operating the arm though, rather than working something additional? if it was on a post close to ground, as in your photo, a horizontal pull would make more sense than pulling down on the other end of the weight lever. The chain would have gone round a wheel to reverse direction and get it down to ground level, then through another, flat wheel to the point tiebar tail (if it's a points indicator), or by wire to a lever/ground frame (if not). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I think I may have solved this - it`s not an NBR miniture fog signal at all, it`s an early daytime ground signal ( C1890 ) a fellow member of the KFRPS found this photo, which given the location is clearly not a fog signal. and given the lack of a lamp must only have been used in daytime We belive the signal came from the S&T department at Ladybank when it closed in the 1970`s, the speculation is that it may have come from the "Newburgh & North of Fife Railway,( N&NFR ) .which although operated by the NBR remained an independant company up until the grouping in 1923. With this photograph we can now make a ground signal and use it at our yard in Leven, does anybody know of an other example in existance? The restored signal arm There was something very similar at the end of the up bay at Kirkcaldy station, but as far as I remember, the arm pointed right instead of left. There didn't seem to be any other signalling here, not even a ground disc. I don't ever remember the bay being used for passenger traffic, but it was used for mails and parcels traffic into the 60's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Don't you think the chain on that 90-degree crank would simply be for operating the arm though, rather than working something additional? if it was on a post close to ground, as in your photo, a horizontal pull would make more sense than pulling down on the other end of the weight lever. The chain would have gone round a wheel to reverse direction and get it down to ground level, then through another, flat wheel to the point tiebar tail (if it's a points indicator), or by wire to a lever/ground frame (if not). GrahamRSignal arms were operated by operating rods on NBR signals, the operating rod on the ballance weight was connected to the miniiture arm ( with a smaller size end than on full size arms ) the chain is original indicating it operated something at 90 degrees to the miniture arm, I did wonder about a co - acting arm, there ia a photo on page 27 ( plate 14 ) of " a pictorial record of LNER constituent signalling" by A.A.McLean which I belive you have a copy but it shows the chain at the base of the signal. on a lattice post, the 61B ballance weight casting was normally mounted about 36" above ground level - too low for a signal arm. The wire from the lever would have operated on the oposite side from the ballance weight - the only thing I can think of is perhaps a bell. about 100 yards south of "Methil East" signal cabin was a brick built building with a gong on a short lattice post and a ground frame outside controlling the entrance to No3 Dock, the gong was controlled from "Methil East" signal cabin I dont have a photo of this, but this photo was taken from the position of the brick built hut looking towards No 3 dock, the note on the photo describes it as No 1 hut ( there may have been more than one hut ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 There was something very similar at the end of the up bay at Kirkcaldy station, but as far as I remember, the arm pointed right instead of left. There didn't seem to be any other signalling here, not even a ground disc. I don't ever remember the bay being used for passenger traffic, but it was used for mails and parcels traffic into the 60's. Thats interesting I wonder if an internet trawl would cast up any photo`s , what date would that be? - presumably before Kirkcaldy station was re - developed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted September 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 18, 2012 the only photo i've seen of the kirkcaldy bay platform is at RCAHMS canmore not a very big image, but seems to show the smaller post is in front of (as we look at it) the up mainline tall post incedentally, the trailing crossover between up/down lines joined the up line just before the points for the bay, i.e. about where the platform ramp is the 1940s OS map only seems to show main signals, but does show the track layout from NLS map site Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Gotcha! (Provided the photo uploads, as I am not very good at this game.) Pic shows signal in question at end of up platform, Kirkcaldy. Taken 4 May 1972, on the occasion of the official Scottish Region return to steam. John Cameron's 60009 heads through on the first steam hauled special for 5 years. The loco was actually based at Kirkcaldy at this time in the old Edin. & Northern(?) goods shed in the up yard. Photo: Andy Arnot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 Gotcha! (Provided the photo uploads, as I am not very good at this game.) Pic shows signal in question at end of up platform, Kirkcaldy. Taken 4 May 1972, on the occasion of the official Scottish Region return to steam. John Cameron's 60009 heads through on the first steam hauled special for 5 years. The loco was actually based at Kirkcaldy at this time in the old Edin. & Northern(?) goods shed in the up yard. Photo: Andy Arnot. Superb work asarnot, the first conclusive proof of a daytime ground signal/point indicator/fog signal/something else in Fife. Do you mind if I forward this photo to other members of the KFRPS? I am sure they would find it as interesting as I do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asarnot Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 No problem, Lochty. I am a (distant) member of KFRPS in any case, and an old mucker of Pete Westwater. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted September 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 18, 2012 Gotcha! what a fantastic pic andy, thanks or posting it phots of kirkcaldy are so thin on the ground anyway, but to see this end of the station is a real rarity! obviously shows the crossover and bay entrance - i think there was a topic on the old RMWeb about how down trains would reverse then access the bay. the more modern track layout only has a crossover at the other end of the station and until the old OS maps came online, it wasn't clear there was one at this end. as for other photos of this end, there used to be a fotopic set by george bett with a couple of pics but i don't think they've been reposted elswhere since p.s. you don't have any more pics of kirkcaldy do you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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