Home and Starter signals

[DavidBird]

How common (or uncommon) was it for a signal box (not at a station) to be provided with both homes and starters?

 

I know that the presence of a separate home and starter allowed a 2nd train to be accepted while the 1st was still within the "station" limits, while if only a home was provided, the 1st train would have to have be at least 1/4 mile beyond the home before a 2nd train could be accepted.

 

I've found this http://www.signalbox...rams.php?id=146 diagram of the correct area (ex-Midland), in the Down direction there is a outer home, inner home and starter (or is that home, starter & adv starter - when no platform what's the difference?) while in the Up there is only a home. How common was this?

 

The reason for asking is that my layout has distances between boxes is drastically compressed, so not as much room as there should be. I've worked out that the 440 yds equates to just over 5 metres in OO.

 

The precise situation is a converging junction, closely followed by a station, but controlled by different boxes. Can I legitimately have a home/distant combined, the junction, short stretch of plain line, home signal, diverging lines into the platforms?

 

Thanks in advance as ever

[Guest stuartp]

How common it was I don't know but it did happen, either as designed or as a result of rationalisation. Wennington Junction near Carnforth only had a home signal in each direction after the junction was removed, it was left to break up the block between Settle Junction and Carnforth East Jcn but only open as required (i.e. once during the two years I was responsible for it). One of the signals was in advance of the box and had no telephone on it so not only was it next to useless for any practical purpose, when the signalman became aware that he would have to stop a train to speak to the driver he had to ask Settle Junction to do so and ask the driver to stop opposite the box. The only reason it survived into the 1990s at all was the famous BR 'maintenance holiday' and that fact that it would have cost money to do anything useful with it like decommisioning it.

 

In your link the solitary signal is protecting the crossing, there is no other reason for a signal elsewhere on that line except, as you say, accepting another train. The three signals on the other line protect the crossing but also the sidings, and allow the sidings to be shunted without impinging on the block section in advance. The lack of a starter is unusual but the sections appear to be short so presumably line capacity wasn't an issue.

 

 

Outer home/home/starter -v- home/ starter/advanced starter or even home 1/home 2/starter appears to have been a company or regional thing and nothing to do with the presence or otherwise of platforms. Hopefully the real signalling experts on here will correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure 'platform starter' is more of a model railway term than a real railway one.

 

I can't see anything wrong with your suggestion but that assumes I'm visualising what you're visualising. You don't need to put the station in station limits either - Barnsley (Exchange) had a box and junction at one end of the platforms and a box and level crossing at the other, both boxes had home only in one direction and home/starter in the other, the junction was within the clearing point and both platforms were in block sections rather than station limits.

[DavidBird]

Thanks, Stuart.

 

I've looked a bit more around the Midland diagrams on signalbox.org, and found that http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=628 Bedford Junction has the situation I was thinking of. Signals 15 on The Down Slow and 10 on the branch are protecting the junction, but are (presumably) slotted with the distants for the next box. All the diagrams I've seen before, even the simplified ones for explaining the rules, show a starter beyond the junction.

 

In my situation, I'd probably have the Distant and Outer Home off-scene, before the slotted combined home/distant actually at the junction.

[Guest stuartp]

I'm not familiar with the location but that looks similar to Barnsley in that the down platform is in the block section. The distants under 10 and 15 will be slotted, they won't clear until the stop signal above them clears.

[beast66606]

How common (or uncommon) was it for a signal box (not at a station) to be provided with both homes and starters?

 

Not unusual.

 

I know that the presence of a separate home and starter allowed a 2nd train to be accepted while the 1st was still within the "station" limits, while if only a home was provided, the 1st train would have to have be at least 1/4 mile beyond the home before a 2nd train could be accepted.

 

Separate signals don't matter, it's the 440yds ahead of the first signal which gives block acceptance, unless reg 5 was authorised.

 

I've found this http://www.signalbox...rams.php?id=146 diagram of the correct area (ex-Midland), in the Down direction there is a outer home, inner home and starter (or is that home, starter & adv starter - when no platform what's the difference?) while in the Up there is only a home. How common was this?

 

There is only one stop signal on each of the down lines, the other signals are distants, I would guess, without knowing, that the next box was on the other end of the platform hence no starter was provided, sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't, sometimes it was a slot on the next boxes home, all exist and not uncommon.

 

The precise situation is a converging junction, closely followed by a station, but controlled by different boxes. Can I legitimately have a home/distant combined, the junction, short stretch of plain line, home signal, diverging lines into the platforms?

 

Draw your plan for clarity.

[micknich2003]

Prior to 1924 it was BoT requirment for all passenger trains stood at a platform to be protected by a fixed signal. After this was relaxed,at many locations the Home signal would be dispensed with. This was often the case on lightly used branch lines, but only of course if there was no point work or cross-over immeadiatly in advance. Mick Nicholson.

[DavidBird]

Draw your plan for clarity.

 

Here's a plan for the layout, Up signals only shown, totally fictional.

If prototypical, the distance between the junction and station would be a mile & half, but on the model it'll be about a metre and half! The black lines on either side represent a viaduct over a river, to explain that there is only a double line between the station and junction.

Must I have an starter after the junction or an advance home before the station ? (ignoring the 1/4 mile requirement - thats the only concession I'll allow in modelling the signalling, everything else must be reasonable!)

[TheSignalEngineer]

Where are the signal box and the platforms? Is it all on one box? What is assumed layout of the unmodelled bit off-scene at each end as that could have a big bearing on what signalling would be needed.

[DavidBird]

Where are the signal box and the platforms? Is it all on one box? What is assumed layout of the unmodelled bit off-scene at each end as that could have a big bearing on what signalling would be needed.

I thought I'd simplify the station end of the diagram a bit! But the layout for the rest is intended to be as this diagram (numbers are station platforms, only Up signals shown)

The distant and outer home would be discarded, just because of the actual space.

The layout approaching is (off-scene) just plain double track main line, single track branch.

I could make both locations operated from the same box and do away with the combined junction approach signals, but I like the look of them, and the complexity (=model operation interesting) of two separate boxes.

[TheSignalEngineer]

With a box at each end of the station, I would go for a working distant under the signal reading to Platform 3. The move to Platform 4 is a low speed move and only likely to be used for stopping trains so would not justify a distant.

[beast66606]

In additon to SEs comments, it's likely the bay signals would either both have call ons, or neither.

 

Your signals at the end of platform 3 and 4 should be a main arm and a miniature arm.

[micknich2003]

Just to further complicate matters, post 1924, at some locations when there was no points in advance the Starting signal would instead be abolished. Mick Nicholson.