RMweb Gold Regularity Posted July 4, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2021 11 hours ago, bluestag said: My signalling, if I live long enough to model it, will be cursory at best. Sounds like many LNWR branchlines: a home, a starter, and as few point levers in the frame (out in the open) as possible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 13 hours ago, Regularity said: Sounds like many LNWR branchlines: a home, a starter, and as few point levers in the frame (out in the open) as possible. Oh, I'll have a signal box, can't resist. There are 16 tortoise point motors planned, with eight installed. I dread the idea of one failing, as I don't see how to install one after the track is laid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 (edited) In the unlikely event that a tortoise fails, it’s more probable that it’s the switch, than the motor. You can use a relay or microswitch to provide the necessary function. if the motor or gears fail, replace the motor but do not cut the operating wire until installed. It’s fiddly but possible, best to shine a bright light down from above. Cut the wire after the motor is installed & tested. I’ve never had a failure, mine are probably 20 years old now. hth Simon Edited July 5, 2021 by Simond 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 Just been transferring stuff off old hard disks before introducing them to The Big Hammer (remember when a 10Gb disk was thought "big"?) and I came across a photo I took at West Kirby 30-odd years ago when the 503s were still about. At least it wasn't raining, just cold grey murk..... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 19 hours ago, Simond said: In the unlikely event that a tortoise fails, it’s more probable that it’s the switch, than the motor. You can use a relay or microswitch to provide the necessary function. if the motor or gears fail, replace the motor but do not cut the operating wire until installed. It’s fiddly but possible, best to shine a bright light down from above. Cut the wire after the motor is installed & tested. I’ve never had a failure, mine are probably 20 years old now. hth Simon I've INHERITED 11 motors, the age of which I cannot tell you. But your experience comforts me. As for the switch, there ARE two, I have wired the motors to 8 pole terminal strips, so it will be a simple matter to try the second switch. But beyond that, I am actuating the motors with lever switches with a wafer holding five single pole double throw switches, only one of which is to be used to drive the motor. I COULD use one of those to switch the frog polarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 Indeed, there are two switches. I am aware of failures, presumably if the moving contact is not properly over the static contact when current flows, or perhaps worse, current flows whilst the contacts are breaking, causing an arc. in the best regulated & finest scale modelling circles, locos will never short on a frog, the signalman will never pull, or return, a lever at the wrong time, so these unfortunate circumstances will never arise, and tortoises will live a long, slow and untroubled life… if bypass surgery is required, well, you have several options! atb Simon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted July 6, 2021 Author Share Posted July 6, 2021 On 05/07/2021 at 00:16, bluestag said: There are 16 tortoise point motors planned, with eight installed. I dread the idea of one failing, as I don't see how to install one after the track is laid. I'll just add my experience, too. I've used Tortoises since I began building the layout (what seems like) years ago and I've had no trouble with the motors. I'd also used them on the Club's layout before that. What I have had trouble with, though, is the switches when they are wired up to change frog polarity. After a pretty long time (as in years!!) some have stopped the power flowing to the frog. A dose of WD40 or contact cleaner squirted into the switch has usually cleared the problem. I suspect it is due to the fact there's 16V AC and up to 5 amps flowing through them and the contacts get burnt/pitted - and somewhere in the depths of the hard drive in my brain, I seem to remember this being commented on at the Club years ago. The other switch is used for the signal interlocking but that has much less power flowing through it and I've had no problems with those. I've now got this frog juicer and, provided I'm happy with the way it works once I've eventually fitted it, the plan is to use those instead of the switch on the Tortoises for the frog polarity changing. On the subject of signal lever colours: sorry I've not replied sooner, but others have gone into more detail than I could have done anyway. On my frame, red is signals, black is points, blue over brown is the GF release and white is spare. I've no use for any other colours on this layout. HTH. Rod 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted July 10, 2021 Author Share Posted July 10, 2021 I've now fitted the frog juicer and I have to say I am really impressed with it. So much so that I am definitely going to fit them to all my other points - on the layout, anyway, not the fiddle yard. They're easy to fit, too: 2 wires from the buses and one to the frog - simples!! The difficult bit is nothing to do with the juicers, but getting under the baseboard!!! I have found one disadvantage, though: it is now possible to run through a wrongly set point in the trailing direction, whereas with a microswitch that couldn't happen as the frog would not change polarity and a short would occur. However, the convenience vastly outweighs that disadvantage and it is only likely to happen in the stabling point anyway as elsewhere the signalling would not clear - because the interlocking still operates through the Tortoise motor switch. I found this out by experiment, not by making a mistake when running!! In other news, Mike has redrawn the Templot plan for the crossover so I'm just in the middle of cutting out and setting up the template to check it again. More soon. Rod 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted July 10, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Dmudriver said: I have found one disadvantage, though: it is now possible to run through a wrongly set point in the trailing direction, whereas with a microswitch that couldn't happen as the frog would not change polarity and a short would occur. Just like a real railway: the driver must obey the signals and also keep an active look out for things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 Rod, it’s clear that juicers are very convenient, but I don’t understand why you would fit them in place of working frog switching. What advantage do they offer, as they are clearly more expensive than the switch you already have? cheers Simon 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted July 11, 2021 Share Posted July 11, 2021 On 05/07/2021 at 23:14, Hroth said: Just been transferring stuff off old hard disks before introducing them to The Big Hammer (remember when a 10Gb disk was thought "big"?) and I came across a photo I took at West Kirby 30-odd years ago when the 503s were still about. At least it wasn't raining, just cold grey murk..... It sure does bring back memories that pictures and it was always cold and grey !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 11/07/2021 at 06:14, Simond said: Rod, it’s clear that juicers are very convenient, but I don’t understand why you would fit them in place of working frog switching. What advantage do they offer, as they are clearly more expensive than the switch you already have? cheers Simon That's a good question, Simon, and it seems to assume there was a logical, reasoned thought process that was followed. There wasn't!! It is probably best described as organic. ** I had the Peco points laid, on which I had isolated the frogs. They were hand operated as I couldn't get Tortoises anywhere near them because of 3" x 2" baseboard supports underneath. The Peco point blades were held in place by a spring and I had just enough room to fit a mechanical microswitch at the end of both tie bars, disguised by dummy hand point levers. These worked very well - until I replaced the Peco points with the hand built ones!! These had no spring so needed a point lever to operate and hold them in position. I could not realistically fit a microswitch and the point levers in the space available so decided to go with dead frogs. They weren't perfect and it was only really when a fresh pair of eyes - my pal Dave - commented on the marker lights going out that I decided to energise them. He mentioned these juicers which he's used on his new layout. I investigated them and decided I'd try them - I love the thought of trying something new, particularly electronic!! Yes, they are more expensive than mechanical microswitches but I decided I could afford one, so bought it - and the rest is as I have described it above!! I now need to investigate whether I can use lower rated ones on my layout which, although DCC, does not involve long, heavy trains operating at speed. So now, as I'm fond of saying, watch this space!! Rod ** Does this perhaps illustrate the difference between engineers and artists? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Major Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Rod, I don't think "organic" can be used to differentiate between engineering and artistic minds - I speak as a retired engineer whose mind is so organic it is positively composting with old age. For me, the advantages of "frog juicers" over electro-mechanical switching is down to reliability and zero requirement for mechanical adjustment. You can get poor electronic circuits but once you weed the duffers out they generally just run and run (witness the Voyager 1 space probe success). I used to look after the electrics of the NECG0G test track electrics. The electro-mechanical switches were a constant source of unwanted work. "Frog juicers" are obviously no use if you wish to alternate between DC and DCC running. Ian. PS I am still jealous of your layout - in the nicest possible way. Edited July 12, 2021 by Ian Major 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Thanks Rod, whilst I agree with Ian’s view (clearly based on experience!) it’s pretty clear that the switches that you had weren’t as satisfactory as the tortoises that I assumed you were using. On Porth Dinllaen, the trap point on the ramp to the coal stage is Tortoise powered, via a wire-in-tube link. That might offer you a way of motorising those points. it looks a bit crude, but works well. Alternatively, servos are very much smaller than Tortoises, but you’ll need an alternative means of control. (edit - and frog switching or juicers too!) and, as a not-yet-retired Engineer, organic is good! cheers Simon Edited July 13, 2021 by Simond 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Major Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Simon, That is a very elegant arrangement with the Tortoise, not at all crude. I think I might steal the idea! Ian. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) Ian, no need for high crimes and misdemeanors! Happy to share! The clamp that holds the tube - I used thick plasticard as you can see, but the key point is that the tube is PTFE and therefore not very easy to stick - I think I used evostik and clamped it as well. Similar arrangement at the point end, which is under the track. Fingers crossed, it'll last forever, because it'll cause a sense-of-humour failure if it needs fixing! atb Simon Edited July 13, 2021 by Simond 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Are the leds to illuminate it for maintenance? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Exactly so, Jeff. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted July 30, 2021 Author Share Posted July 30, 2021 Progress is a bit slow, I'm afraid!! Mike's been having a bit of trouble getting the plan right for the crossover so I put a new thread on Templot Club, asking how to get a tracing into Templot. After some exchanges, Martin Wynne offered to do it for me so I sent PDFs of the tracings which he converted (somehow!!) into JPEGs. He then sent me back the plan which I printed off and checked on the layout and it's fine. He's even tweaked a sharp bit of the curve for me. ** Mike is now about to start cutting the bases and making up the packs. Then I can get going again!! In the meantime, I've done more shunting around whenever I go in the shed but no proper running sessions!! I want, when I get the chance, to do a video to show how noisy the current crossover is - how well it will come out, I don't know. We'll see how it goes. More soon. Rod ** If anyone's interested, the thread is here: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/using-a-tracing-as-a-basis-for-a-template.232/#post-2158 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted August 1, 2021 Author Share Posted August 1, 2021 (edited) I've had a bit of a play today and made a couple of videos which were planned to show the noise made by stock over the trailing crossover but they didn't really achieve what I wanted. But I did make a couple - see below. However, before that I was putting stock into the fiddle yard prior to operating and nearly had a nasty smash. I'd put a train in road 3 and reset the points to put the next in road 4 - I heard the noise as the points went over - or so I thought. Watching the train negotiate the double slip it unexpectedly went into road 3 and I just managed to press the emergency stop in time. After a bit of head scratching, I finally found the culprit: The return wire from one pole of the Peco motor had broken off so the point went from 4 to 3, but not back again. How that has happened, I don't know as it was working last time and I've not been near it since. Maybe I've got some very strong spiders!!! Anyway, I fixed it - not a very neat joint but there's nothing close by so the wires won't short anything - unless the spiders have other ideas!! Here's the repaired joint: It works OK now. The 2 videos don't really show the noise but they do show how the wheels drop into the gap in the frog. Here they are: https://youtu.be/B1Jl0RiBD1M https://youtu.be/mrx8xNqzW5s I'll do a couple more when the 0-MF ones are in place. More soon Rod Edited August 1, 2021 by Dmudriver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted August 2, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2021 13 hours ago, Dmudriver said: The 2 videos don't really show the noise but they do show how the wheels drop into the gap in the frog. The second clip (propelling move) does show the noise. Some people in G1MRA actually like the noise generated by wheels dropping into the gap, which is unavoidable in their “standard” standards, with a 6mm wide tyre and 3mm flangeways (mean(no a slightly greater than 6mm gap at the noise of the vee!) Facing turnouts on layouts frequently need crossing vees replacing at intervals. Be thankful - things could be worse! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 On 01/08/2021 at 22:09, Dmudriver said: The return wire from one pole of the Peco motor had broken off so the point went from 4 to 3, but not back again. How that has happened, I don't know as it was working last time and I've not been near it since. Maybe I've got some very strong spiders!!! Anyway, I fixed it - not a very neat joint but there's nothing close by so the wires won't short anything - unless the spiders have other ideas!! More likely to be rats, mice or squirrels. I wonder if something like "Stop & Grow Stop Biting Nail Solution" might deter them in future? Of course, they might like the taste, like some folk like salted caramel, and make the matter worse! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) strychnine. even if they do like the taste... indeed, particularly if they do like the taste Edited August 3, 2021 by Simond 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Simond said: strychnine. even if they do like the taste... indeed, particularly if they do like the taste Can't buy that on eBay...... Unless you know differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Simond said: strychnine. even if they do like the taste... indeed, particularly if they do like the taste Indeed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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