LNER autocoaches/railmotors/push-pull units

[nigeln]

There were Sentinals and Claytons. The lner inherited the ner tyneside eletric stock which needed refurbishing in 1934 and was autherised to construct new stock. The eventual total was 164 multiple unit coaches made up into twins. These were then formed into various lengths as traffic demanded.

In 1925 the LNER introduced Steam railcars they were operated in small numbers until 1927 a batch of 11 was obtained from Clayton wagons Co these were opperated in the northe east. The LNER also purchased a number of trailer cars fro Clayton to increase passenger numbers on market day.

They were finished in simulated teak or Plum and cream but from 1930 they were finished in engine green and cream.

The Sentinals outlasted the the Clayton steam railcar so all the trailers were paired with the Sentinals.

By 1940 all had gone, a total of 81 Sentinal Cammell steam railars were purchased between 1925 and 1932 with various body designs including ridged bodied articulated and one articulated twin. All but 3 were named, the names were previously used on stage coaches. The Sentinal outlasted the Clayton by 8 years the majority withdrawn from 1943 the final one being in 1948

Ironically the last one was named "Hope"

 

Langley do a "N" gauge body kit and Nu Cast used to do a "OO"

[gpx1338]

I recently took the plunge and butchered a Hornby Gresley 4 compartment brake in order to produce a push-pull set to work with my elderly C15 4-4-2T - not a job I was particularly keen to start in view of the £40 cost of the carriage, but friends seem to think I've made a reasonable job of it, although it doesn't bear comparison with items I've seen in these pages. I must thank Ian Kirk for the photographs he put on this forum last year which were a great help. However, they showed the driver's end as running in Departmental service, and all the markings on the bodyside had been changed. Does anyone out there know the running numbers of the semi-corridor lav/comp, and the 4 comp. brake/ 3rd (driver's end) which were in service on the Arrochar - Craigendoran run at the end of BR steam? None of the photographs in any of my books are clear enough to show them. Once I get to work with the T-Cut on my Hornby Gresleys I will also need to know which paint and transfers are the best match for the bodywork and any remaining numerals.

[66C]

Does anyone out there know the running numbers of the semi-corridor lav/comp, and the 4 comp. brake/ 3rd (driver's end) which were in service on the Arrochar - Craigendoran run at the end of BR steam? None of the photographs in any of my books are clear enough to show them. Once I get to work with the T-Cut on my Hornby Gresleys I will also need to know which paint and transfers are the best match for the bodywork and any remaining numerals.

Have a look at the LNER Suburban Diagrams (a downloadable pdf file) on the Masterclass Models website here:

 

http://www.masterclass-models.com/id1.html

 

Look for the coach types that begin with a D - these may be the conversions you are looking for.

 

Regards.

[billbedford]

Information on all the LNER push& pull coaches is in BRJ No 32, Summer 1990. I'd post the info on the Arrochar sets, but I seem to have mislaid my BRJ Copy.

[gpx1338]

Have a look at the LNER Suburban Diagrams (a downloadable pdf file) on the Masterclass Models website here:

 

http://www.masterclass-models.com/id1.html

 

Look for the coach types that begin with a D - these may be the conversions you are looking for.

 

Regards.

Many thanks for the info, which brought me back to the Isinglass drawing that I referred to while creating the Driver's end. I should have taken more notice of the small print at the side which states that Diagram 317 consisted of 2 coaches  converted from Diagram 65, and these were numbered 86983 and 86984. As yet I haven't got the drawing for the semi-corridor lav./comp. so have got no idea what the BR numbers were of the Diagram 318 carriages. As little or no work seems necessary, apart from renumbering, I didn't think it necessary to purchase the drawing for a while until someone pulls me up on the lack of extra pipework, or something else i might have missed. Can anyone enlighten me, or post me the article from BRJ 32 mentioned by Bill Bedford (thanks to you too). I tried to get hold of a back copy as soon as Hornby announced they were going to produce the Gresley 51' stock, but with no success. 

[DOCJACOB]

I've got the MRJ article if you let me know your snail mail address. At he risk of being labelled pedantic the model rail article shows one of the ex scottish push-pull coaches already wearing Fox bogies prior to its departmental life.

 

Additionally there is a flitting image of the driving trailer on cine film (DVD Railways of Scotland Vol 10 Glasgow Part 2 I think)

 

Finally to almost prove that every rule has a exception here is an image I found on-line. The sharp eyed will see the brake section of the coach is next to the locomotive

 

ADMIN - to comply with forum copyright rules please provide a link rather than upload the photo.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Mod6

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

In the photo above you will see that the coach next to the loco is the converted Brake composite. If the other coach is the 4 compartment driving trailer and facing the other way I think that the pipework would still allow for push pull operation. Must get a copy of the MRJ article as it seems that I don't remember as much about this as I thought I did.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[gpx1338]

Hi,

In the photo above you will see that the coach next to the loco is the converted Brake composite. If the other coach is the 4 compartment driving trailer and facing the other way I think that the pipework would still allow for push pull operation. Must get a copy of the MRJ article as it seems that I don't remember as much about this as I thought I did.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

 

I've got the MRJ article if you let me know your snail mail address. At he risk of being labelled pedantic the model rail article shows one of the ex scottish push-pull coaches already wearing Fox bogies prior to its departmental life.

 

Additionally there is a flitting image of the driving trailer on cine film (DVD Railways of Scotland Vol 10 Glasgow Part 2 I think)

 

Finally to almost proof that every rule has a exception here is an image I would on-line. The sharp eyed will see the brake section of the coach is next to the locomotive

I did notice in Ian Kirk's photographs that the bogies on the 4comp/brake had been altered, but got the impression that this only happened when it was converted for Departmental use. Were the Gresley bogies still under the carriage up to the end of steam on the WHR service? I look forward to clarification in the BRJ article! My snailmail address is on its way to you (with my thanks).

[gpx1338]

Thanks to Ian for clearing up the mystery of this photograph. I could only assume that the push-pull apparatus had failed on this occasion, but, on second thoughts, what I assumed was the Driver's end is facing the wrong direction, and I can't imagine why it would have been turned around.

[benachie]

The BC conversions were numbered 80326 and 80327.   There were also GNS BT conversions which, it is rumoured, went down to Arrochar-Craigendoran.   You will have deduced that the Isinglass drawing does not relate to  the Scottish conversions.

Alan

[DOCJACOB]

If you search further in the forum section: Try Specialist Sections, Railways of Scotland, page 3 there is a bit on the same LNER coaches. I have have scanned the page clearly showing one of the ??? ex Arrochar Brake 3rd coaches in the North East area, in service use and wearing Fox bogies (honest) 

Edited December 2, 2013 by DOCJACOB

[DOCJACOB]

On a bit of a roll now and I remember seeing some "blurb" on the Buckinghamsire Railway Centre Website about the Dia 56 LNER 3rd coach they have. If the stated numbers of 22218, 82415 and E82145E are correct (and there may be some debate here)then it is one of the push pull conversions from Scotland, all be it ended its life on GE section.

[Sasquatch]

Double jumper cables and what look like over sized buffers but (excuse my ignorance) What was the through pipe  for?

Or is that a through air pipe for air brakes added for the departmental use noted by way of the label clip and brake lever. 

Regards Shaun

Edited December 2, 2013 by Sasquatch

[DOCJACOB]

Last comment for the day and another "exception that proves a rule" example. The image is of our already discussed Arrochar-Craigendoran Push Pull workings. This time we have a Mark 1 BR Full Brake in the consist.

 

The caption says push pull working though I fail to see how this could be as I'm not aware Mark 1 full brakes would be compatible for full prototypical push pull working?

 

As a rule the locomotive went chimney first from Arrochar so technically push pull working wouldn't be required?

 

ADMIN - scanned photo deleted, copyright issues.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Mod6

[Sasquatch]

It looks like 67460 is pulling the train, so an additional BG wouldn't be a problem. I've a picture somewhere of a push pull working (albeit southern) with addition to the train being pulled, where as the regular passenger stock is being pushed so that the locomotive is placed in the middle of the train. Ventnor West IOW I seem to recall!

Also interesting in this pic is the use of express head lamps. I'm assuming that's not one forward white lamp and one red tail lamp as practice required the removal of lamps not in use!

Edited December 2, 2013 by Sasquatch

[Bon Accord]

It looks like 67460 is pulling the train, so an additional BG wouldn't be a problem. I've a picture somewhere of a push pull working (albeit southern) with addition to the train being pulled, where as the regular passenger stock is being pushed so that the locomotive is placed in the middle of the train. Ventnor West IOW I seem to recall!

 

Also interesting in this pic is the use of express head lamps. I'm assuming that's not one forward white lamp and one red tail lamp as practice required the removal of lamps not in use!

 

Sasquatch,

All passenger trains on the West Highland carried Class 1 headlamps, there is a reason for that but I'm afraid I've long since forgotten! I'm sure someone will jump in and explain all.

 

[gpx1338]

I've got the MRJ article if you let me know your snail mail address. At he risk of being labelled pedantic the model rail article shows one of the ex scottish push-pull coaches already wearing Fox bogies prior to its departmental life.

 

Additionally there is a flitting image of the driving trailer on cine film (DVD Railways of Scotland Vol 10 Glasgow Part 2 I think)

 

Finally to almost prove that every rule has a exception here is an image I found on-line. The sharp eyed will see the brake section of the coach is next to the locomotive

Many thanks indeed for the articles which arrived safely this morning - a spot of light reading indeed! I seem to have opened a right can of worms with my posting. At least it is nice to see there are several people in the world who are interested in Scottish railways. If only that included Bachmann and Hornby, then we light be served up some NBR or CR locos ready to run!

 

All the best for Christmas. I expect I'll be in touch again sometime on RMWeb.

 

from John Goss

[DOCJACOB]

Glad you liked the photocopies. I too would like some RTR 7mm NBR or CR but I won't hold my breath!

 

I don't view it as a "can of worms" more a continued debate,as I guess the majority would view the Arrochar-Craigendoran push pull as a C15 and 2 coaches, we can see thats not exactly true. 

[DOCJACOB]

See someone was looking for coach numbers. Here is an image I've only seen once

Edited December 8, 2013 by Mod6
Copyright

[gpx1338]

This appears (if my failing eyesight serves me right) to be the comp/lav No. SC88024E from Diagram 50, which normally operated with  Brake/third Driver's end conversion No. SC86983E. According to the invaluable articles you sent me, the other Scottish conversion (SC86984E) went to St. Combs. The conversion shown in the Model Rail article is E86997E, which was also for the St. Combs branch, before being returned to the North East in 1943. I assume it was never used at Arrochar. This one is fitted with Fox bogies, which you mentioned in an earlier posting, and could it be that it was this carriage that Ian Kirk photographed in Departmental condition?

 Unless anyone can prove to the contrary I shall keep the Gresley bogies underneath my Craigendoran - Arrochar set, or else I will have to contact MJT.........

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

I think you are safe enough with the Gresley bogies and I was wrong to originally allocate this car to the Craigendoran service.  From the note on the back of the photo this was departmental No320979.  I have now checked through Sandy McLean's notes and  this was ex 86984 (7572).  Two were converted from Dia65 to Dia317 in 1940 the other was 86983 (ex3233).  No 86984 went to GNS area 86983 went to SSA .

All this of course raises another interesting question. If  St Combs had 86997 until 1943 why did it need 86984 in 1940?  and why does it seem that both ended up with Fox bogies? Perhaps Inverurie had a stock of good Fox bogies to use up?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited December 6, 2013 by Ian Kirk

[billbedford]

There were five Scottish conversion in all. Two each on D.317 and D.318 and one each on D.320. 

 

Digram 317 brake third rebuilt from D.65 in 1940. Numbers 3233/SC86983E & 7572/E86984E

Diagram 318 brake composite rebuilt from D.118 in 1941.  Numbers 32533/SC80326E & 32534/SC80327E

Digram 320 brake third rebuilt from D.64 in 1942. Numbers 7571/E86997E

 

The Arrochar-Craigendoran service was originally worked with a 3 coach set BT(4) + Cl(3/4) + BC(2/4) presumably with the loco within the train. But I don't understand why it was thought necessary to have two sets for both this and the St Combs services.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

There is always the Great Central 12 wheel autotrailers, I don't know too much about them although one worked the Aylesbury Verney Junction line for many years. first with a GCR 2-4-0 tank then later years an Great Eastern F4? 2-4-2 tank.

 

David

[DOCJACOB]

Firstly the image of E86997E at Blyth with Fox bogies.

 

I also enclose a mix of images of the relevant working. Broadly speaking all the images (regardless of 2 coach or 3 coach woking) I've seen have both 1st and 3rd class seating but in different proportions.

 

Scan 7 Brake Composite and Brake 3rd

 

Scan 8 Top image Semi Corridor Composite and Brake 3rd Bottom image Semi Corridor Composite, Brake 3rd and ? Brake Composite at rear

 

Scan 10 Brake Composite, Semi Corridor Composite and Brake 3rd

 

Note difference in order between scans 8 and 10

Edited December 8, 2013 by Mod6
Copyright

[billbedford]

Firstly the image of E86997E at Blyth with Fox bogies. 

 

 

The absence of the second vac pipe (cable???) suggest that the P&P control gear had been removed before this photo was taken.