Black Country Blues

[br2975]

A posting on model rolls in the next day or so but in the meantime, can anybody post a link to a photograph showing rolls loaded onto a wagon? I have a reason for asking....

 

 

 

Very informative Arthur.

 

 

Probably one of the most uncommonly photographed steel related loads - I don't have one to hand.

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I do have a GWR rule book which contains diagrams of the correct means of loading 'mill rolls' - but that's at home (where the scanner is u/s - and I'm in work !).

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The GWR and subsequently BR built wagons specifically for this traffic.

 

The GWR possessed a very ecclectic collection of wagons for the carriage of mill rolls, some being built on the underframes of tenders acquired from pre-grouping companies.

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There was an excellent drawing by Mike Moreton Lloyd and photographs of a GWR 'Roll Wagon' in an old MRC circa 1964.

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Over the years many authors, and enthusiasts have (wrongly) thought that the wagons were for carrying (rolls of) steel coils not the actual mill rolls.  

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Brian R

[DonB]

Like many a customer of British Steel, and its constituent companies,  I have been taken on guided tours of most of the steel works in the UK,

Despite having the background knowledge of how the steel we used was produced, I could not have produced a succinct guide to Rolling mill practice to come anywhere near the clarity of Arthur's post above. It bought back memories of hot sweaty days in a variety of rolling mills, and the noise involved!

A useful posting, thank you Arthur.

 

If readers would like to see the drive of a reversing mill in action, there is one in the museum at Kelham Island, Sheffield, which is run (unloaded!) to demonstrate the principle. It's a three cylinder steam drive to a huge flywheel which is stopped from full speed and reversed back to full speed in (if I remember correctly) 3 seconds! ...  "Impressive" hardly covers this demonstration.

When I saw it four(?) years ago, it was being demonstrated every afternoon. Details of current programme and a picture of the beast at  http://www.simt.co.uk/kelham-island-museum/river-don-engine

[hmrspaul]

Very informative Arthur.

 

 

Probably one of the most uncommonly photographed steel related loads - I don't have one to hand.

.

 

.

The GWR and subsequently BR built wagons specifically for this traffic.

 

The GWR possessed a very ecclectic collection of wagons for the carriage of mill rolls, some being built on the underframes of tenders acquired from pre-grouping companies.

.

There was an excellent drawing by Mike Moreton Lloyd and photographs of a GWR 'Roll Wagon' in an old MRC circa 1964.

.

 

.

Brian R

I don't think I have any photos of traffic wagons for Rolls. Only the GWR and WR seems to have had a need for specialist wagons for this traffic - like you I have the Morton Lloyd drawing - excellent, but as the page is ripped from a magazine I don't know the reference.

Photos are page 33, 135 and 151 in Russel, J. H. (1974) Great Western Wagon appendix. Oxford Publishing Co. Oxford, SBN 0 902888 03 X

And Figs 178 - 182 in Russel, J. H. (1981) Freight wagons and loads in service on the Great Western Railway and British Rail, Western Region. Oxford Publishing Co. Oxford, SBN 86093 155 2

 

 

The BR were much the same and only 10 were built. I don't know a photograph of them.

 

Internally there were specialist wagons for rolls such as http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/scunthorpebsccorus/e67dfe676  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/scunthorpebsccorus/e619dbb7f  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/scunthorpebsccorus/e61e52745

 

Nice set piece at Scunthorpe http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e6ae6c334

 

Paul

Edited October 4, 2013 by hmrspaul

[Arthur]

.

Brian and Paul,

 

 

Thanks for your input, it's all very interesting and helpful. There's a photo of a BR Roll WC, no. 901851 in Don Rowlands 'British Railways Wagons'. It's a works photo so it isn't loaded unfortunately.

 

The reason I'm asking for photos of rolls loaded onto wagons is to decide how to finish the models; new and shiny or old and rusty. They are going to be wagon loads. Having manufactured and turned a roll to a high standard, would they just load it, unprotected, onto an open wagon? They soon develop a patina of rust if left unused and exposed.

 

For life expired rolls, returning for melting down, it wouldn't matter, but for new rolls? Would they be sheeted, even crated, if so, should I model a crate and not a roll........? The photo of the Roll C shows 'cradles' at each end which would suggest that the rolls were not crated, maybe just covered?

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 4, 2013 by Arthur

[br2975]

.

Brian and Paul,

 

 

Thanks for your input, it's all very interesting and helpful. There's a photo of a BR Roll WC, no. 901851 in Don Rowlands 'British Railways Wagons'. It's a works photo so it isn't loaded unfortunately.

 

The reason I'm asking for photos of rolls loaded onto wagons is to decide how to finish the models; new and shiny or old and rusty. They are going to be wagon loads. Having manufactured and turned a roll to a high standard, would they just load it, unprotected, onto an open wagon? They soon develop a patina of rust if left unused and exposed.

 

For life expired rolls, returning for melting down, it wouldn't matter, but for new rolls? Would they be sheeted, even crated, if so, should I model a crate and not a roll........? The photo of the Roll C shows 'cradles' at each end which would suggest that the rolls were not crated, maybe just covered?

 

Thoughts?

 

The only photos I can recall of new rolls on wagons are those taken in and around Tennant's Foundry at Whifflet; and unfortunately all the rolls in the photos I have (e.g. Bylines) are loaded onto internal use wagons.

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Brian R

[Arthur]

Thanks Don,

 

Pleased that It brought back some memories, yes, they are certainly noisy places.

 

I spent two weeks working under the Irlam cogging mill on a job called 'scaling'. When they were rolling it was absolute bedlam. Hot steel 'plastic' enough to roll doesn't ring or clang, it 'clonks', sounding more like heavy timber. The rapid stopping and reversing of all that heavy rotating mass, flywheel and all, is impressive.

 

I must visit Kelham Island sometime.

[Arthur]

Thanks Brian, yes, I've seen some of those Tennants photos, as you say, they are unfortunately shown on internal user wagons.

[griffgriff]

Not wanting to decry the rest of the project but this is fascinating stuff.  For too long the workings of the railway have been ignored but it's this kind of research that uncovers how and why the railways developed and how and why we can model them in a much more convincing fashion. 

[Andy Y]

Tomorrow and Sunday are a big weekend for the team; all of the boards come together for final works and test running ahead of its first show in complete form in a fortnight at Peterborough. Hopefully there'll be chance to grab some action shots.

[Worsdell forever]

Not action shots of Old Gringo obviously...

[Andy Y]

It'll be a pleasure to welcome our automotive supplier from the pretty part of Yorkshire down for the weekend; we needed someone who knows what they're doing on hand.

[Worsdell forever]

And I will have essential supplies...

[Stubby47]

And I will have essential supplies...

 

Cornish cream tea ???

[Worsdell forever]

Cornish cream tea ???

Sorry, these are from Mr Franks neck of the woods.

[Robotstar5]

Thanks for the informative posts on rolling mills Arthur. I did my apprenticeship at the Birmid (Smethwick) in the 70's so know well what it was like to work in a foundry. We only did iron casting but usually produced a load of ingots of "pig iron" at the end of shift ready to go back into the furnace the following day.

[Fat Controller]

Davy's had another roll-making plant in Gateshead, on the opposite side of the Sunderland line to the car-unloading sidings; it was still rail-connected in the early 1980s, but I can't say I remember seeing anything going in or out by rail.

RT&B had a roll-making foundry, along with ancillary machining facilities, at Machynys, Llanelli, between Llandilo Jct Yard, and the old Llanelly shed (87F); my father did his apprenticeship there in the early 1930s. SCOW must have had similar facilities, but I've no idea where.

I do wonder if new rolls were a traffic that went over fairly early to road haulage to reduce the lead time on deliveries; I certainly don't remember seeing being transported by rail, either during my childhood visits to steel plants (Dad would have pointed them out, I'm sure) or in later 'trainspotting' days, when I'd have known what they were.

[Mark Forrest]

A lot of canal based activity today.  The lock gates which Nigel has constructed have arrived on site:

and have have been installed:

 

Also along the cut; Andy B has been making preparations for a signature Black Country structure - a cast iron roving bridge:

 

Elsewhere, Paul has been working on installing some buffer stops (from the Lanarkshire Models range), along with the steps giving access to the yard from road level:

 

Strange holes have appeared in the track bed:

 

Something isn't quite right about this run of point rodding, not sure what it is though:

 

And finally (for now - early start tomorrow!); look, there is more to the cottages than just the chimneys!:

 

 

 

 

[Andy Y]

More importantly fifteen of us went out for a bit of a social in someone's garden shed.

 

 

As ever John provided good entertainment.

 

[d winpenny]

Looking brilliant

 

David

[Mark Forrest]

And all being well we should even get chance to play trains later today, or at least that is what the rest of the group are telling me!

[Shadow]

Was having a look around the web and found this page.

 

About half way down, there's a comment with a photo, saying that

 

"There seem to be 19 horses dragging the wagon, which is from the London and North Western Railway."

 

It shows a roll on the wagon without covers.

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Engineering/perry/perry03.htm

[br2975]

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I do wonder if new rolls were a traffic that went over fairly early to road haulage to reduce the lead time on deliveries; I certainly don't remember seeing being transported by rail, during my 'trainspotting' days, when I'd have known what they were.

 

 

Same goes for me.

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Brian R

[2ManySpams]

Nice!

[The Stationmaster]

Davy's had another roll-making plant in Gateshead, on the opposite side of the Sunderland line to the car-unloading sidings; it was still rail-connected in the early 1980s, but I can't say I remember seeing anything going in or out by rail.

RT&B had a roll-making foundry, along with ancillary machining facilities, at Machynys, Llanelli, between Llandilo Jct Yard, and the old Llanelly shed (87F); my father did his apprenticeship there in the early 1930s. SCOW must have had similar facilities, but I've no idea where.

I do wonder if new rolls were a traffic that went over fairly early to road haulage to reduce the lead time on deliveries; I certainly don't remember seeing being transported by rail, either during my childhood visits to steel plants (Dad would have pointed them out, I'm sure) or in later 'trainspotting' days, when I'd have known what they were.

I think you're right Brian - there didn't seem to be any moving by rail when I was in South Wales in the early '70s but they could be seen - sheeted - on lorries sometimes and definitely the only ones I saw while at Llanwern (early 1974) were on lorries and we had no wagons capable of handling them.

[2ManySpams]

And all being well we should even get chance to play trains later today, or at least that is what the rest of the group are telling me!

 

Are the wheels back on the storage box??