Carlisle colour light signals 1960s

[Michael Edge]

Can anyone help with an explanation of the colour light signals in and around Carlisle Citadel station in the 1960s? Most of the South end signals had a theatre type route indicator but since this is blank most of the time photos don't show what the indication looked like. Also many of them had an additional single aspect to one side as in the photo below, this is the approach signal from the Newcastle direction with (left to right) theatre indicator, 3 aspect signal (later 4) with shunt signal below and a smaller box with the single aspect below.

[Graham R]

Hi Michael,

 

The Signalling Record Society's website has a 1963 resignalling plan for the Kingmoor area, which, though not covering Citadel, may be some help since it describes the actual signal layouts and route indications. Here's a detail from the main plan key (it's unweildy to download and view) explaining the features of main running line signals:

 

 

Regarding the miniature colour-light signal displaying yellow, Rule 35e ... Rule 35 concerns types of signals and their indications. I don't have a BR 1960s rulebook, but "British Railway Signalling" (Kitchenside/Williams, 4th edn 1980) says "In some places, where facing points give access to a siding, yard or loop, a single-aspect subsidiary colour-light signal may be used. Normally, no light is displayed, but when cleared, a miniature yellow aspect is illuminated, the main signal above remaining at danger".

 

Hope that helps you decode your photo! Of course, the Citadel signalling technology may not have been identical, and for the precise route indications displayed you'd need to get hold of the exact signalling notice. There are several others around Carlisle on the SRS site but as far as I can see, none for Citadel itself.

 

regards

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Oh dear - my entire earlier post seems to have vanished .

 

The 'additional single aspect to one side' is almost certainly a miniature yellow - it's in an arrangement which was typical of the LMR from the mid/late 1950s thro' to approximately the mid 1960s (I'm not sure of the date when miniature yellows were abolished in new work, and it varied between the Regions, but 'mid 1960s seems to be about the time).

Miniature yellows were basically used to read to non block lines which could mean sidings, through sidings, and some categories of Goods Lines or running loops and only illuminated when 'off' - the danger (red) indication being given by the main aspect of the signal. Their meaning was (and remains) exactly the same as that given by a subsidiary signal - i.e that they only apply as far as the line is clear and that the line ahead may be occupied.

 

Miniature yellows seem to have been very popular on the LMR and were quite widely used in the Post-War period up until c.the mid 1960s (the Carlisle one illustrated probably dated from 1963) they were also used on the ER but I'm not sure if the NER (Region) used them widely and they were unusual on the Western being used in only two major schemes (Birmingham Snow Hill and Plymouth - the Region had ceased to install them by 1964 judging by contemporary documents). I'm not sure if they were used by the Southern but I can't find them in the early 1960s Kent Coast scheme boxes so if the region had used them it had dropped them for new work by the early 1960s.

 

Some examples still ve (or did the last time I was there) and they can be found at Perth so clearly the Scottish Region also used them.

[beast66606]

I think the colour lights at the South were provided when the new Carlisle No.5 box was opened, which predates the Kingmoor resignalling by 12 years (Opened Sept 1951), hence the different style.

[Michael Edge]

Thanks for the answers, any ideas about what was on the theatre indicators?

[Grovenor]

Theatre indicators were normally made up of lamps in a dot matrix, this was 7 high and 5 wide which allowed for a single digit or letter.

If platforms in the teens were needed indicators could be had in 7 by 7 allowing a one on the left of another 7 by 5 digit. where more than that was wanted two of the 7 by 5 indicators could be mounted in one housing allowing a two letter code, which looks to be what you have in the photo. The actual indications can probably be deduced from a track plan giving the names of the various routes and would be shown on the signalling plan if you can find one.

Keith

[Michael Edge]

No need for platform numbers in teens, only 8 platforms at Citadel. There are three routes going South, Newcastle/S&C, LNW to Crewe and M&C to Cumbrian Coast. A single number or letter would do nut I can't find anything showing them.

[beast66606]

I would guess the indications would be B - Barrow, P - Preston or M - Main, and N - Newcastle - a signal box diagram would show this information if you can get hold of one - for Carlisle Number 5. I've found some photos but they are general shots of the frame and although the diagram is visible, the text is not readable sadly.

[Grovenor]

Since the signal is at the South end approach from Newcastle it is not likely to indicate routes to Newcastle. Were there not some through lines as well as platform lines? In which case the need for a two letter indication could be for one of those.

Keith

[beast66606]

No need for platform numbers in teens, only 8 platforms at Citadel. There are three routes going South, Newcastle/S&C, LNW to Crewe and M&C to Cumbrian Coast. A single number or letter would do nut I can't find anything showing them.

 

Yes Keith, but he was asking about the routes going South - or he phrased the question badly.

[Michael Edge]

The signal photo I posted was only a sample, there's one of these on each of the three approaches, one from the N end and one on each of the South platform ends. The whole station is being modelled - see thread on Crown street bridge deck for some photos. We have signal diagrams for No.5 box but I don't think they shed any light on this.

[The Stationmaster]

I think the signal pictured originally is the one coming in off the S&C/Newcastle lines judging by the other line coming in from the left. Relating that to the two diagrams above I can see a potential total of 5 running line routes from that signal some of which would have been identified by platform numbers while others (two routes it would seem) would have been identified by letter code - of two letters as both were to Down ('D') lines.

 

But it's years since I was last there to have a look around (which would have been when that signalling was still in use) and I have no real memory of that end of the layout so I might be barking up a very wrong tree.

[Grovenor]

The drawing does help, just at the bottom of the top half is a listing for the platform starters giving the lever numbers and the route indications, unfortunately most have been cut off on the scan, but you can see that letter 'E' is used for the route to Newcastle and 'W' for the Main line South. If you have the whole drawing then the rest of the indications will be given in the format:

Signal letter (as on plan) Lever no. - Route indication - To destination.

If you have the next bit of the plan to the left there should be a similar listing for the inbound signals, the Stationmaster has given one suggestion for the two letter indications, eg DM, DG, DL, depending on the track names, Main, Goods, Loop etc. Possible also that the Bays were identified as the driver would need to know if the line he was entering was shorter than normal, so they could have had prefixes eg 'B2'.

Regards

Keith

[Michael Edge]

Unfortunately that's where the plan was cut off, I hadn't noticed the letters. Still don't know what the letter on the M&C route was though.

[Michael Edge]

Just found this one - diagram for No4 box at the North end, I think this explains the system for identifying the routes into the platforms, presumably the South end approach signals could be extrapolated from this. Just need to find out what letter was used for the Cumbrian coast line.

[Graham R]

Are you aware of this 1971 diagram? it names some of the through roads in the station.

 

If you got in touch with John Hinson, who runs www.signalbox.org, he might be able to help with the route indications, he's a stickler for accuracy and detail.

 

regards

Graham

[Edwin_m]

I believe John is having some health problems at present so may not be able to respond immediately. However there are some real experts on the forum on that site, so posting your question there would be a good move.

[Grovenor]

Just found this one - diagram for No4 box at the North end

 

It does confirm that the double indicators are to show a B prefix for the bays.

Regards

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

It does confirm that the double indicators are to show a B prefix for the bays.

Regards

Keith

 

And that the through roads apparently just show the platform number instead of a line name.

[Michael Edge]

I have seen the 1971 diagram for 4A box, it shows 4 aspect signals, they are 3 aspect in most of the photos we are using. The tracks between platforms 3 and 4 were not used as through roads but for stock storage and light engine movements - most through trains changed engines here. What through freight there was was usually found outside platform 1, most of it went along the goods avoiding lines (also included in this huge layout!).

[beast66606]

'B'ertie and 'C'harlie were converted to through running during the 1980s to allow the closure of the final freight avoider, after a runaway iirc.

 

So it seems we were talking about the Southbound departures after all ?

 

Given E for LNE, W for LNW, a good guess would be M for Maryport & Carlise.

[Michael Edge]

The layout period is 1960-62, it covers approximately London Road/Upperby Junctions to Caldew Junction through the station and along the goods lines. We have most of the information about semaphore signalling, just a few gaps regarding the colour lights in use at the time.

[Michael Edge]

'B'ertie and 'C'harlie were converted to through running during the 1980s to allow the closure of the final freight avoider, after a runaway iirc.

 

So it seems we were talking about the Southbound departures after all ?

 

Given E for LNE, W for LNW, a good guess would be M for Maryport & Carlise.

Good guess, I waited on Carlisle station yesterday for a Barrow train to depart and indicator showed "M", main line still shows "W". It belatedly occurred to me that even though the signals are new the indications would probably be the same.