Dock Green

[81A Oldoak]

As I have five others (don't ask!) there is no hurry at all for the return of this choice item...

 

Oh, hang on, could the ransom be the price of a Minerva Peckett, by any chance?

[chaz]

I have not tried this personally, but...

 

If it is possible to lay the buffer plank down level so the outside is lower most, I would be tempted to place thin self-adhesive tape over the outside, lay the plank down, and pour an epoxy resin (with talc filler, maybe) into the holes. Assuming you have degreased & abraded the holes, I would expect a very good bond and a reasonable surface.

 

HTH

Simon

 

Simon, the whole body, roof, sides, ends and the buffer planks (headstocks?) are moulded as one piece. Of course the body could be set up on end to do this, but I will need to do one end at a time if I am to rely on gravity. Would you expect the "rapid" type of epoxy to do the job? How important is the filler? How much is that doggy in the window? sorry - couldn't resist it

 

Chaz

 

Don't act the innocent with me, matey!

[Simond]

Er, dunno Guv.

 

OK, more reasoned answer. The epoxy wants to be runny - you could use old fashioned slow Araldite rather than the 5-minute version, or copies thereof, and warm it, lots. Soak the tubes in hot water before mixing, but don't get any water in the mix!

 

The filler is pretty much "to taste"; Mix 'till it looks right, sort of translucent but still runny? I expect that it will stiffen the cured resin, and probably make it less brittle, but as it's under very limited loads, you'd probably get away without.

 

Put the mix in drop by drop using a cocktail stick so that you don't trap any bubbles. Swirl it round, gently, so it is well attached to the sides of the hole, and allow to set.

 

I would not recommend 5-minute for this, as I think warm, runny epoxy would be better than warm, set-before-you-can-use-it rapid mix.

 

As the van is one piece, you will indeed have to go twice. It's an overnight job anyway, so "over two nights".

 

I'm pretty confident, it's what I would do, but I haven't done it.

 

HTH

Simon

[chaz]

Er, dunno Guv.

 

OK, more reasoned answer. The epoxy wants to be runny - you could use old fashioned slow Araldite rather than the 5-minute version, or copies thereof, and warm it, lots. Soak the tubes in hot water before mixing, but don't get any water in the mix!

 

The filler is pretty much "to taste"; Mix 'till it looks right, sort of translucent but still runny? I expect that it will stiffen the cured resin, and probably make it less brittle, but as it's under very limited loads, you'd probably get away without.

 

Put the mix in drop by drop using a cocktail stick so that you don't trap any bubbles. Swirl it round, gently, so it is well attached to the sides of the hole, and allow to set.

 

I would not recommend 5-minute for this, as I think warm, runny epoxy would be better than warm, set-before-you-can-use-it rapid mix.

 

As the van is one piece, you will indeed have to go twice. It's an overnight job anyway, so "over two nights".

 

I'm pretty confident, it's what I would do, but I haven't done it.

 

HTH

Simon

 

OK. Thanks for that. I do remember using warmed Araldite some time ago and how runny it became. Of course it may be unnecessary if the SR van buffer holes are in the right place. Fingers crossed 

[chaz]

Having just spent a ridiculous amount of time fitting the underframe of a Slater's BR standard van, trimming, trying, trimming again, trying again etc to get it to fit between the headstocks (buffer beams?)  I have to say if the only thing wrong with the JLTRT vans is the buffer spacing let's be having them! I think filling and redrilling the buffer holes can't take as long as fiddling about to get this to fit.

 

This morning's efforts have reminded me why I only have one BR standard van on Dock Green - there should be lots! I had forgotten just what a chore this particular job is - all for a part that is invisible when the van is on the track. After I had removed the frame for the third time for another fettle (which involves carefully bending the frame members to ease them out) I began to wonder if I shouldn't just chop off a couple of mill' for an easy fit and put some microstrip overlays in to strengthen the joints. I might still do that - it certainly wouldn't matter at all when the finished van is running on Dock Green. You do need to fit this frame piece to support the solebars in the right position, otherwise I would hurl it into the bin.

 

I won't start wingeing about kit design    (excessively tedious to revisit this well-covered topic) but Pete Waterman's simple approach to kits seems the antithesis of Slater's and, at the moment, much more attractive.

 

Chaz

Edited December 8, 2015 by chaz

[brianthesnail96]

Glad it's not just me... did you cut and glue all the strips of microstrip on to the underside bracing too, or did you decide your sanity wouldn't stretch that far?

 

I could really do with another one for BT&S, so will be watching your JLTRT progress with interest.

[chaz]

Glad it's not just me... did you cut and glue all the strips of microstrip on to the underside bracing too, or did you decide your sanity wouldn't stretch that far?

 

I could really do with another one for BT&S, so will be watching your JLTRT progress with interest.

 

No Matt, I won't be glueing the microstrip on the underside.  As I said if you can't see a detail when the model is on the track IMO there is no point in fitting it.

 

Another "joy" coming my way is cleaning up the lost-wax castings. As I recall some of these are a pain to prepare. It's almost as if Slater's designed this kit to...... NO - I will say no more.

 

Chaz

[brianthesnail96]

The standard 12T van was the second 0 gauge kit I made- I stuck all the bits on underneath (after the same tweak a bit- try it- tweak a bit- repeat exercise), plonked it on the track and thought "what did I do all that for?!". Feels like cheating to miss it out though...

I don't recall having too many arguments with the lost wax bits, the buffers took a bit of tidying but at least they repay the effort.

[chaz]

The standard 12T van was the second 0 gauge kit I made- I stuck all the bits on underneath (after the same tweak a bit- try it- tweak a bit- repeat exercise), plonked it on the track and thought "what did I do all that for?!". Feels like cheating to miss it out though...

 

I don't recall having too many arguments with the lost wax bits, the buffers took a bit of tidying but at least they repay the effort.

 

Feels like cheating? No, not really. When you have built some of the appalling brass kits that still lurk waiting to catch the unwary - kits where you have to modify and replace bits to have any hope of success - you develop a different attitude to kits. Plastic kits are generally much more accurate than the dodgy brass ones but remember you paid for it - you are free to build it the way you want, and if that means chucking some of it away - fine.    Rule One applies to kits as well.

 

On occasion I have had to drill out the cast brass buffer guides, which would be a challenge for anyone without a drill press and a decent machine vice.

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

The standard 12T van was the second 0 gauge kit I made- I stuck all the bits on underneath (after the same tweak a bit- try it- tweak a bit- repeat exercise), plonked it on the track and thought "what did I do all that for?!". Feels like cheating to miss it out though...

I don't recall having too many arguments with the lost wax bits, the buffers took a bit of tidying but at least they repay the effort.

Not cheating, but rather, saving time for more useful employment.

[Robin Gristwood]

Feels like cheating? No, not really. When you have built some of the appalling brass kits that still lurk waiting to catch the unwary - kits where you have to modify and replace bits to have any hope of success - you develop a different attitude to kits.

 

As a new starter in O gauge, I am on a steeply rising learning curve and it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits.

 

I too have a Slaters 20t BR Brake Van to make up, having read what troubles you are having I'm tempted to ditch it and maybe get a Connoisseur Brass one?

 

Robin

[Father Dougal]

As a new starter in O gauge, I am on a steeply rising learning curve and it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits.

 

I too have a Slaters 20t BR Brake Van to make up, having read what troubles you are having I'm tempted to ditch it and maybe get a Connoisseur Brass one?

 

Robin

IMHO, It would probably be unfair to publish a list of kits perceived by one person as being of 'poorer quality' - as you build more kits you become more adept at adapting kits or adding extra detail and so building more basic kits becomes less of an issue.

Probably best to focus upon building a few kits from a manufacturer with a strong reputation to begin with.

Stick with connoisseur for now and get some experience and confidence. Jim's kits have great instructions.

Personally, I find Slaters kits are ok, same as Parkside. Some kits just need a bit more 'fettling' than others.

Don't forget the Peco kits, often overlooked but ridiculously easy to build.

D.

[chaz]

As a new starter in O gauge, I am on a steeply rising learning curve and it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits.

 

I too have a Slaters 20t BR Brake Van to make up, having read what troubles you are having I'm tempted to ditch it and maybe get a Connoisseur Brass one?

 

Robin

 

There is nothing wrong with the Slater's 20t BR Brake Van - it makes up in to a fine model BUT the Slater's approach is time consuming and can be fiddly. I have built both the Slater's and the Connoisseur and if I was to build another it would be the brass one. If you are going to build the Slater's brake van you might want to do what I did and replace the plastic footboards with brass ones. The support brackets are lost wax brass castings and a glued joint between the plastic boards and these is fragile to say the least.

 

The "troubles" I am having with their 12T van kits are not insurmountable by any means. I was merely drawing comparisons between their kits and the more straightforward Parkside ones. I have got to the point where, if I find a tricky problem that is the result of poor kit design, I get impatient - why is it like that? - when with just a little more care...

 

"it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits."

 

Yes, understood, but one has to be a little careful - slagging off kits in a casual way is not on - but an accurate account of problems encountered must be legitimate. The best advice I can give you is to ask on forum - if people have had problems with a kit they will certainly tell you. Of course if you decide to build something nobody on here as done you won't get more than a general "His kits are good" or "Don't touch it with a ten foot pole". I could tell you that the J52 saddle tank I built is an awful kit but that's of little help if you don't want to build one! I have built several Connoisseur kits and have not yet encountered a bad one. If you want to get into brass kits a wagon from the range would be a good start. Of course etched brass is more of a challenge than moulded plastic and requires different skills and tools but there is nothing that a reasonably skilled modeller need shy away from.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

Edited December 9, 2015 by chaz

[81A Oldoak]

There is nothing wrong with the Slater's 20t BR Brake Van - it makes up in to a fine model BUT the Slater's approach is time consuming and can be fiddly. I have built both the Slater's and the Connoisseur and if I was to build another it would be the brass one. If you are going to build the Slater's brake van you might want to do what I did and replace the plastic footboards with brass ones. The support brackets are lost wax brass castings and a glued joint between the plastic boards and these is fragile to say the least.

 

The "troubles" I am having with their 12T van kits are not insurmountable by any means. I was merely drawing comparisons between their kits and the more straightforward Parkside ones. I have got to the point where, if I find a tricky problem that is the result of poor kit design, I get impatient - why is it like that? - when with just a little more care...

 

"it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits."

 

Yes, understood, but one has to be a little careful - slagging off kits in a casual way is not on - but an accurate account of problems encountered must be legitimate. The best advice I can give you is to ask on forum - if people have had problems with a kit they will certainly tell you. Of course if you decide to build something nobody on here as done you won't get more than a general "His kits are good" or "Don't touch it with a ten foot pole". I could tell you that the J52 saddle tank I built is an awful kit but that's of little help if you don't want to build one! I have built several Connoisseur kits and have not yet encountered a bad one. If you want to get into brass kits a wagon from the range would be a good start. Of course etched brass is more of a challenge than moulded plastic and requires different skills and tools but there is nothing that a reasonably skilled modeller need shy away from.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

I've built a couple of the Slater's 20T BR brake vans and I'm happy with them. I  agree that replacing the plastic footboards with brass is a sound idea and  I would like to get some spare brass footboard mounting brackets so that I can replace the rather fragile footboards on my Parkside and PECO GWR Toads.

 

Chris

[Robin Gristwood]

There is nothing wrong with the Slater's 20t BR Brake Van - it makes up in to a fine model BUT the Slater's approach is time consuming and can be fiddly. I have built both the Slater's and the Connoisseur and if I was to build another it would be the brass one. If you are going to build the Slater's brake van you might want to do what I did and replace the plastic footboards with brass ones. The support brackets are lost wax brass castings and a glued joint between the plastic boards and these is fragile to say the least.

 

The "troubles" I am having with their 12T van kits are not insurmountable by any means. I was merely drawing comparisons between their kits and the more straightforward Parkside ones. I have got to the point where, if I find a tricky problem that is the result of poor kit design, I get impatient - why is it like that? - when with just a little more care...

 

"it would be really useful to know which brass kits you have had significant problems with,  to both avoid making expensive mistakes as well as potentially getting disheartened with brass kits."

 

Yes, understood, but one has to be a little careful - slagging off kits in a casual way is not on - but an accurate account of problems encountered must be legitimate. The best advice I can give you is to ask on forum - if people have had problems with a kit they will certainly tell you. Of course if you decide to build something nobody on here as done you won't get more than a general "His kits are good" or "Don't touch it with a ten foot pole". I could tell you that the J52 saddle tank I built is an awful kit but that's of little help if you don't want to build one! I have built several Connoisseur kits and have not yet encountered a bad one. If you want to get into brass kits a wagon from the range would be a good start. Of course etched brass is more of a challenge than moulded plastic and requires different skills and tools but there is nothing that a reasonably skilled modeller need shy away from.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

Chaz

 

Thank you Chaz for your helpful and considered advice. I did not, and would not, expect you to slag off any particular kit.

 

It is really useful to know what pitfalls one might encounter that are due to design flaws rather than one’s own inadequate skills, and how to work round them too as you have explained.

 

I will persevere with the Slaters Brake Van and see how I go, but if the problem is around fitting of parts that cannot be ordinarily seen during normal running then I think I will be tempted to skip them.

After all if the only time they would be visible would be when its on its side after a derailment, I think I’d rather make sure I don’t have derailments!

[chaz]

I am building my two Slater's vans largely as per the instructions but the 12T standard van needs tie-bars between the W-irons. Glueing on microstrip does not appeal!

 

First steps in my improved approach are to weld the axleguards to the solebars and to file away the bolt heads from the strap below the axleboxes. If you wanted to you could also thin down the strap a bit but I haven't done this.

 

 

The brass strip in the photo' is the1.5 x 0.5mm I bought at the Reading show.

I cut a length of brass strip a little oversize and blacken the ends with a spirit based pen. It can be trimmed accurately to length once it has been measured against the model. Clipping this to the axleguards with crocodiles I could mark where the fixing pins will be - in line with the centres of the vertical "legs" - using a scriber. I use 0.7mm brass wire for the pins.

 

 

After removing the strip I used the scriber to impress a dimple where the hole should be - on the scribed marks and on the centre line of the strip. I am reluctant to use a centre punch on such thin, narrow strip - it would be easy to distort it.
I used a 0.7mm drill in a pinchuck to start the holes. A small drill like this will find the dimple left by the scriber providing the pinchuck is hand-held.

 

 

Once the drill has enlarged the dimples I put the pinchuck in the drill press and finished drilling the holes under power.
The next step is to clip the brass strip back onto the plastic axle guards and adjust its position as accurately as you can. Using the strip as a drilling jig I carefully inserted the drill (still in the pinchuck but hand-held again) into each hole in turn and drilled a witness mark in the plastic. I then removed the brass and finished the holes through the plastic by hand.

 

 

It's best not to push hard, let the drill find its own way through to avoid splitting the plastic part or breaking the drill.

 

 

The holes in the brass and in the plastic are the same size - the photo' is deceptive.

Preparing the brass wire for the fixing pins I file one end flat and square with a fine (#4) flat needle file. When I cut it off I push it into a 0.7mm hole drilled in a piece of wood with the filed end uppermost. The hole in the wood will keep the wire upright whilst it's soldered in place. I put the brass strip over the wire (it might be necessary to ease the hole slightly with a cutting broach) and then push the wire into the wood until just a tad (two tads to a smidgeon ) projects out of the surface of the strip.

 

 

I cut a tiny fragment of 145 solder - there it is on the card triangle just at the end of the bit of wire I use to place some liquid flux on the joint. I use this small an amount of solder as I really don't want to have to scrape or file away any excess.
After soldering in all four wires I neutralise the flux with an alkali cleaner (I use CIF) brushed on and then washed off. Any traces of flux left on the work will cause steel tools to corrode.

I now fit the tie-bar in place. You may find, as I did, that it helps to open out the holes in the plastic just a little (a smidgeon?) with a cutting broach. 0.7mm wire into a hole drilled with a 0.7mm drill can be quite tight and four of them...

 

 

Last step is to turn the work over and cut the wires off as close as possible behind the plastic part. You could file them flush but I didn't bother.

 

 

Eventually I will put a spot of CA between the brass and plastic but not before the van is assembled and the wheels are in. In fact they are a snug fit without glue and will certainly not fall off.

 

Chaz

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by chaz

[chaz]

Of course I now need to retro-fit the other fitted vans that should have tie-rods but haven't.   When I built them I didn't see any point in glueing on microstrip - which I think would be lucky to stay on much longer than the painting and weathering stage.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

I've built a couple of the Slater's 20T BR brake vans and I'm happy with them. I  agree that replacing the plastic footboards with brass is a sound idea and  I would like to get some spare brass footboard mounting brackets so that I can replace the rather fragile footboards on my Parkside and PECO GWR Toads.

 

Chris

 

Are there not plenty of brass Toads? Brake vans, more than most wagons, are a lot better (more rugged) in brass.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Woops - don't know why that last one posted twice - gremlins?

Edited December 9, 2015 by chaz

[HeatherKay]

Of course I now need to retro-fit the other fitted vans that should have tie-rods but haven't.  

I may be mistaken, but it's worth checking whether the vans you modelled all had the tie bar. Memory may be rusty, but I recall a pattern to whether bars might have been fitted. If the van had eight-shoe clasp vacuum brake, no bar. If it had fou-shoe brakes that only pushed out, then a bar was fitted.

 

Of course, there will be exceptions to the rule!

[81A Oldoak]

Thank you Chaz for your helpful and considered advice. I did not, and would not, expect you to slag off any particular kit.

 

It is really useful to know what pitfalls one might encounter that are due to design flaws rather than one’s own inadequate skills, and how to work round them too as you have explained.

 

I will persevere with the Slaters Brake Van and see how I go, but if the problem is around fitting of parts that cannot be ordinarily seen during normal running then I think I will be tempted to skip them.

After all if the only time they would be visible would be when its on its side after a derailment, I think I’d rather make sure I don’t have derailments!

Here is my Slater's BR 20T brake van during the early days of building Cwm Bach.

[chaz]

I may be mistaken, but it's worth checking whether the vans you modelled all had the tie bar. Memory may be rusty, but I recall a pattern to whether bars might have been fitted. If the van had eight-shoe clasp vacuum brake, no bar. If it had fou-shoe brakes that only pushed out, then a bar was fitted.

 

Of course, there will be exceptions to the rule!

 

Quite so Heather. I was aware that vans with the clasp brakes didn't have tie-bars - they didn't need 'em. The Vanwide kit that I have has clasp brakes, so when I come to build it I will be saved this task - good thing too as the underframe looks complicated enough already. Some vans that you might have expected to have them didn't. As always one checks through the books  for photos etc.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I found it quite a lot quicker doing the second side. I didn't have to find tools, to think about how to do the job or to take a series of photos to post here!

 

 

A couple of points that occurred to me as I was making up the second tie-bar...

 

Unless your working methods are considerably more accurate than mine the two ends of the bar will not necessarily be identical - that is the hole spacings may differ slightly. It's worth marking one end (on the back) so that it goes back on the same way round as when you used it to drill the witness marks in the plastic. If it's only just out forcing a pin home might well damage the plastic axleguard - the holes are pretty close to the edges.

 

The plastic of the Slater's kit is less flexible than that of the Parkside and so it doesn't seem possible to spring the axleboxes apart enough to pop the wheels in. I tried to take the wheels out of an assembled van but had to stop when it felt like something was about to break. This means that before the second solebar is glued into place the wheel sets will have to go in. This may make the brake gear etc a bit more tricky to fit - time will tell.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

Here is my Slater's BR 20T brake van during the early days of building Cwm Bach.

 

Your brake van has the same error as mine (one for which we can thank Slater's). On (all?) BR vans the handrail on the inner side of the verandah opening is not the same as that on the outer. With the exception of the earlier vans, which had the LNER arrangement, the inner handrail was longer, projecting below the edge of the cabin, fixed to a bracket.

 

The Connoisseur brass kit has it right.

 

 

 

I imagine you care as much as I do

 

And your torpedo vents....?

 

I rather like the guard leaning on the verandah end. From which range is he?

 

Chaz

Edited December 10, 2015 by chaz

[Donw]

Pity the poor manufacturer. If all the detail is added it can be a fiddly build. If things are left out people complain of the lack of detail. I found the Slaters GWR coaches rather fiddly with all the brake gear. On the other hand Conoisseur's Hydra has little brake gear. Jim said I only put in what could be seen on a photograph. Jim's approach is fine for a wagon running on a layout. Do you want simple or detailed?

 

There are other details I think Slaters fitting of Brass Hangers for the footboards into plastic sides an awkward method if you are then intending to solder brass footboards. What you really need is to make a jig to solder the assembly before fitting to the sides. Novices are often not used to the idea of making jigs.

 

I like the way you tackled the tiebar. It made me think how it might be easier if the W irons were brass. I found it easy in EM using the etched brass W irons you could spring the wheelsets in and tweak the W irons to get nice running. With the Plastic ones you need to set it up carefully when building the kit. I find minimal side play works for me.

Don

[chaz]

Pity the poor manufacturer. If all the detail is added it can be a fiddly build. If things are left out people complain of the lack of detail. I found the Slaters GWR coaches rather fiddly with all the brake gear. On the other hand Conoisseur's Hydra has little brake gear. Jim said I only put in what could be seen on a photograph. Jim's approach is fine for a wagon running on a layout. Do you want simple or detailed?

 

There are other details I think Slaters fitting of Brass Hangers for the footboards into plastic sides an awkward method if you are then intending to solder brass footboards. What you really need is to make a jig to solder the assembly before fitting to the sides. Novices are often not used to the idea of making jigs.

 

I like the way you tackled the tiebar. It made me think how it might be easier if the W irons were brass. I found it easy in EM using the etched brass W irons you could spring the wheelsets in and tweak the W irons to get nice running. With the Plastic ones you need to set it up carefully when building the kit. I find minimal side play works for me.

Don

 

I hope you don't mind if I comment on your posting Don?

 

My main criticism of the BR standard van kit is not to do with the amount of detail - but the poor fit of the underframe. As I said above it can be made to fit but the work is a chore.

 

When it comes to the tie-bar - it's a matter of choice. You could, of course follow Slater's instructions and glue microstrip to the back (? - it's not clear) of the axleguards but that seems rather like supporting your layout baseboards on string tied to cuphooks in the ceiling.

 

The handrails on the BR brake van are wrong - it's a small error and doesn't spoil an otherwise excellent model, but they are wrong. I have checked through a number of books and can't find a picture of a van with the configuration that the model has. Cue for someone to find one.

 

So why criticise?  Well, for a start - had I have noticed or if somebody on forum had pointed out that the handrails on the brake van were wrong I might well have corrected them - it would be a very small modification. As it is I am loathed to spoil the finish and my van will stay wrong.

 

I think it's also helpful if those of us who have gone through the mill pass on our experiences, that's what the forum is for - is it not?

 

Chaz