Manufacturing models

[Andy Y]

The obvious 'elephant-in-the-room' is: would there be enough people in the world (but mainly in the UK) willing to pay the kind of prices associated with such products? Instead of £100 for a loco, think £300+. They'd have to be accurate to gauge of course, which means (within the HO/OO size bracket) either P4 or Proto87. Is there a big enough market for such a product? Historically the answer is no based on the usual answers to the scale/gauge debate, but no-one's ever tried so we don't really know.

 

I think the figures would be substantially more than that Ian. Taking premium quality 7mm & 10mm RTR products for example that retail in the £1500 - £4000 sector which have a viable, if smaller, output to the UK and International market as a comparison even those products are tooled and manufactured in the far east.

 

What price an accurate P4 Princess produced on similar terms; I'd say it would be north of £500 and add a couple more if it were produced in the UK.

 

I take it the Chinese use labour intensive techniques to make masters = techniques which are going out of fashion in other industries.

 

Leaving aside your quality comments as everything in this world is produced to a cost/specification no matter where it's made; I'd suggest readers look at MI4 and the resin-casting article and think how much the products would be if produced here.

[billbedford]

The RTR N gauge locomotives from Union Mills are sort of British too (well Britsih Isles) arn't they?

I believe they are made in Eastern Europe.

[billbedford]

The obvious 'elephant-in-the-room' is: would there be enough people in the world (but mainly in the UK) willing to pay the kind of prices associated with such products? Instead of £100 for a loco, think £300+. They'd have to be accurate to gauge of course, which means (within the HO/OO size bracket) either P4 or Proto87. Is there a big enough market for such a product? Historically the answer is no based on the usual answers to the scale/gauge debate, but no-one's ever tried so we don't really know.

Just ask yourself how many people will pay at least this amount to have some make up kits for them.

[The Stationmaster]

Just ask yourself how many people will pay at least this amount to have some make up kits for them.

... or, putting it another way ... how many people can afford to pay that sort of money (and probably a lot more in reality).

 

The mass market of r-t-r is surely a very different world from that of the bespoke and hand-crafted model - not just in quality and price but in the relatively limited supply of really skilled model makers (which in turn is governed by the size of the market).

[billbedford]

The mass market of r-t-r is surely a very different world from that of the bespoke and hand-crafted model.

I'm not sure that this is true, it is more likely that is a continuum from cheap train set models at one end to hand crafted scratch built models at the other. I would say that there is a sufficient large market for series produced models of local prototypes selling at a relatively small premium over that charged by the majors. So far, as far as I can see, only OO Works has attempted to exploit this market sector.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure that this is true, it is more likely that is a continuum from cheap train set models at one end to hand crafted scratch built models at the other. I would say that there is a sufficient large market for series produced models of local prototypes selling at a relatively small premium over that charged by the majors. So far, as far as I can see, only OO Works has attempted to exploit this market sector.

A 'small premium' might well work - as it seems to in the example you quote - but I can't see that applying across the whole mass market where price resistance, or certainly moans about price increases, have already crept in. With the rise in r-t-r visual quality over recent years people have got used to getting something that looks good and usually performs fairly well for what they regard as a realistic price.

 

True some folk can afford to move up the scale and until recently that small premium was no doubt in reach of quite a good percentage but that is changing and the more expensive stuff, say Golden Age, is in a much smaller market area although they seem to be surviving so far. But I really can't see the large part of the market moving that way but I do think that supply and demand will probably stay in reasonable balance with a gradual growth when the economy improves.

 

The interesting question would be how many folk on here are prepared to pay that 'small premium' for a 'local prototype'? I would be prepared to do exactly that for certain classes of Western/consituent's locos but I would expect to see greater fidelity and better quality running than I can get off the retailer's shelf for say £120, and I couldn't afford very many at, say, £300 a pop.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It appears that the 7mm modeller is willing to pay much higher prices, for both finished models and kits. Perhaps the larger scale tends to preclude large layouts and collections and therefore their budget is spread across fewer items

 

In 4mm there is a much wider availability of relatively cheap RTR models and therefore the idea of a collection of many models and a fairly loose approach to modelling accuracy (in terms of location and period) seems to prevail. I can't see that changing. The satisfaction of RTR models surely comes from the pleasure of making a purchase and the pride of ownership. Given that the pleasure of "retail therapy" need continual sustenance, a continued supply of relatively low cost, subtly different models to add to the collection is what will drive the 4mm market. I can't see the majority of buyers going for fewer, but more expensive, models.

 

There will always be those that want to model specific eras/locations/railways outside what is available as RTR offerings. The kit builders sustain the kit market and are usually are content with a relatively small collection, but get most of their enjoyment from model making. They are also willing to pay more for the materials to produce a model and invest more in their workshop tools, etc.

 

 

If size (of the collection) is what appears to really matter to the RTR buyer, then price will continue to be the biggest factor.

 

Jol

[coachmann]

It appears that the 7mm modeller is willing to pay much higher prices

But isn't this only because a 7mm scale model has four times the bulk of a 4mm model. I also came across quite a few people who expected 7mm paint jobs for 4mm prices, so I don't think they can afford 0 gauge really.

 

.

[GC Jack]

I don't know if things have changed recently. I knew a couple of 4mm professional kit builders who gave the whole thing up as a bad job.

 

One said he could earn more by being unemployed. I know of one still that works for less than £5 an hour as he says the 4mm market won't pay any more. He is retired and I think just does it for pin money.

 

I agree with many comments posted here and LNWR modeller hits on the head by stating that some aspects of the market are driven by retail therapy. Many of the magazines push that side of the hobby well with the latest "must have" product. Obviously brings loads of enjoyment to 100,000's model railway enthusiasts and that can't be bad.

 

Doesn't appear to work for me though, but perhaps that's my loss.

 

Jack

[cheesysmith]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, how much of the manufacturing of the models in china is driven not by the costs being too great to produce over here but the companies using the cheap labour to increase there profit margins? The Hornby railroad range would be a good range to check the prices when made in the uk compaired to the prices now, adjusted for inflation. Also, how would the economies of scale work out if the shipping charges rise due to fuel shortages or shipping companies having to pay for the polution cause by their emmisiion?

[Guest Moria]

Another avenue to look at is the high spec, high value end of the market, something not currently being sold here in the UK in model railways via conventional manufacturing (as against hand made).

 

The obvious 'elephant-in-the-room' is: would there be enough people in the world (but mainly in the UK) willing to pay the kind of prices associated with such products? Instead of £100 for a loco, think £300+. They'd have to be accurate to gauge of course, which means (within the HO/OO size bracket) either P4 or Proto87. Is there a big enough market for such a product? Historically the answer is no based on the usual answers to the scale/gauge debate, but no-one's ever tried so we don't really know.

 

NOTE: this answer is not to be taken as an excuse to start a scale/gauge debate either in this thread or on RMweb!!!

 

What about CJM in the UK. Certainly been around a while and seems to have a full order book, and in N gauge your 300 is still well under for one of these.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Jol Wilkinson]

I don't know if things have changed recently. I knew a couple of 4mm professional kit builders who gave the whole thing up as a bad job.

 

One said he could earn more by being unemployed. I know of one still that works for less than £5 an hour as he says the 4mm market won't pay any more. He is retired and I think just does it for pin money.

 

I agree with many comments posted here and LNWR modeller hits on the head by stating that some aspects of the market are driven by retail therapy. Many of the magazines push that side of the hobby well with the latest "must have" product. Obviously brings loads of enjoyment to 100,000's model railway enthusiasts and that can't be bad.

 

Doesn't appear to work for me though, but perhaps that's my loss.

 

Jack

 

Jack,

 

I think that your comments and Larry's experience clearly illustrate that there are those out there that don't understand the cost of custom built models or paint jobs, irrespective of the scale. That's strongly reinforced by increasingly good 4mm RTR models at what are really quite cheap prices. However, there are still good professional model makers that are able to charge sensible prices and make a reasonable living from it, because there are enough people that appreciate the quality and individuality of what they produce.

 

It's ironic that "cheque book modelling" was rather derided, but is increasingly practised in 4mm by many who consider themselves modellers, but in reality have become collectors. While they are keen to continually buy the latest must have product as you point out, price will remain a very major factor.

 

Jol

[GC Jack]

 

It's ironic that "cheque book modelling" was rather derided, but is increasingly practised in 4mm by many who consider themselves modellers, but in reality have become collectors. While they are keen to continually buy the latest must have product as you point out, price will remain a very major factor.

 

Jol

 

Jol,

 

That's an interesting comment. Perhaps they are "debit/credit card modellers" now though.

 

I think the collector v. modeller scenario has been with us for many decades but what has changed the balance now is the qaulity of RTR. Although the likes of Triang and the original Hornby are now highly valued and collectable that was not their original target market, they were sold as toy trains.

 

The "cheque book modellers" then wanted the hand built qaulity models, now they can buy them off the shelf.

 

Jack

[coachmann]

I think the term Cheque book Modellers must have been coined by someone who had overlooked the fact that incomes vary. Joe Red can afford an £80.00 loco, Joe Black saves diligently so he can buy a £400.00 loco while Joe White can easily afford a £400.00 loco....period. It's called life but the one thing they have in common is they are railway modellers. To assume a rich person is merely a collector is incorrect.

[billbedford]

The interesting question would be how many folk on here are prepared to pay that 'small premium' for a 'local prototype'? I would be prepared to do exactly that for certain classes of Western/consituent's locos but I would expect to see greater fidelity and better quality running than I can get off the retailer's shelf for say £120, and I couldn't afford very many at, say, £300 a pop.

If some one really wants a J15, jumbo or coal tank, at the moment they have a choice of either buying a kit, which with wheels, gears and motor is likely to cost twice as much as the equivalent RTR model and need considerable skill and time to build, or they scratchbuild. While both of these options may appeal to a minority, all be it a vocal one, I believe enough modellers would be willing to pay a premium over the RTR prices, for something that the majors are unlikely ever to consider, to make short run RTR a viable proposition for smaller manufacturers.

[GC Jack]

I think the term Cheque book Modellers must have been coined by someone who had overlooked the fact that incomes vary. Joe Red can afford an £80.00 loco, Joe Black saves diligently so he can buy a £400.00 loco while Joe White can easily afford a £400.00 loco....period. It's called life but the one thing they have in common is they are railway modellers. To assume a rich person is merely a collector is incorrect.

 

I think there is a difference. Of course a rich person can be a modeller, its just that the definition can be blurred. If they build and run a model railway then that's what they are. If they are well off enough have everything built for them - including the layout and everything else - to call them a modeller is stretching the point I think.

 

Jack

[The Stationmaster]

If some one really wants a J15, jumbo or coal tank, at the moment they have a choice of either buying a kit, which with wheels, gears and motor is likely to cost twice as much as the equivalent RTR model and need considerable skill and time to build, or they scratchbuild. While both of these options may appeal to a minority, all be it a vocal one, I believe enough modellers would be willing to pay a premium over the RTR prices, for something that the majors are unlikely ever to consider, to make short run RTR a viable proposition for smaller manufacturers.

 

Which is in effect what the 'commissioners' are doing although their prices aren't a huge premium above the big boys. The economics then revolve around the length of run needed to recoup the investment in research, design and tooling and there is going to be a level at which the size of run becomes uneconomic because price would exceed top quality handbuilt/painted. You then have to take into account simplicity which also clearly impacts on design and tooling so that also comes out in the price - it would be far simpler to produce a coal tank (with one lot of period detail) than a Western 15XX for example in exactly the same way as the amount of input varies in creating a kit.

 

The only problem with going in for short r-t-r runs is the financial risk - running off 1,500 -2,500 examples will get the price down to a sensible marketable level (i.e. r-t-r+ in price terms) but a run of 500 immediately trebles the investment to be recouped on each loco. I'm not saying it's impossible but it is an enormous financial risk on which a lot of folk might not be prepared to gamble their house unless they not only have guaranteed sales but have a good percentage of the cash from those sales paid up front. It will be interesting to see if anybody is prepared to take the gamble.

[billbedford]

Which is in effect what the 'commissioners' are doing although their prices aren't a huge premium above the big boys. The economics then revolve around the length of run needed to recoup the investment in research, design and tooling and there is going to be a level at which the size of run becomes uneconomic because price would exceed top quality handbuilt/painted. You then have to take into account simplicity which also clearly impacts on design and tooling so that also comes out in the price - it would be far simpler to produce a coal tank (with one lot of period detail) than a Western 15XX for example in exactly the same way as the amount of input varies in creating a kit.

 

That is not the approach OO Works has used, and I suspect there are a number of other possible solutions for people who think sufficiently creatively.

[justin1985]

Remember when Dapol used to make a song and dance about manufacturing in Wales? That all went quiet didn't it ...

 

I don't know if any of their Collectors' Club members can shed any more light, but I get the impression that the only things made in their factory now are the old Airfix construction kits, and possibly the print stages of the limited edition wagons? Certainly Dave's posts indicate that even the CAD design for new models, ostensibly the most skilled stage of the whole process, is done in China (so much for the British "knowledge economy" ...)

[coachmann]

I am sure there would be a ready market for 3-D loco bodies made specifically to fit on Hornby or Bachmann chassis. I have in mind basic locos with pips to denote where to drill for lamp brackets, pipework and handrails etc, the latter being fitted by the buyer. See, I've already got money saved in a piggy for an L&YR 'A' Class 3F to fit on the Bachmann MR 3F chassis....

[billbedford]

Having done one, I come to the conclusion that it will be much better to use the 3-D print as a pattern for resin casting. Are you intending to do the 'A' yourself?

[The Stationmaster]

Having done one, I come to the conclusion that it will be much better to use the 3-D print as a pattern for resin casting. Are you intending to do the 'A' yourself?

Or how about a 94XX to fit on a Bachmann 57XX/8750 chassis (I see the 94XX is on a certain concern's 'suggestions' list so perhaps it could be done the way Coach has suggested; would you like my order now?)

[Jim Martin]

Peco is uk manufacture is it not?

 

Regards

 

Graham

 

I think it is, which allows us to make a useful comparison. On Hattons' website right now, the Peco n-gauge HAA hopper is on sale for £13; the made-in-China Farish model of the same thing is available for pre-order at £9, with some of the (presumably less well selling) versions with hoods available from stock for £7 or £8. I'd say that these two models are of comparable quality.

 

Jim

[coachmann]

Bill B said :

Are you intending to do the 'A' yourself?

No Bill. It is a loco (or two) I need seeing as it was the Lees Shed maid of all work.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am sure there would be a ready market for 3-D loco bodies made specifically to fit on Hornby or Bachmann chassis...

It is an attractive idea but I anticipate two obstacles.

 

Any class popular enough to generate enough customers willing to do the relatively little DIY for this 'alternative body' approach, is likely to already be on a RTR manufacturers short list. Easy enough answer to that, plan on a relatively short run volume to capture all the likely sales ahead of any RTR announcement.

 

The other obstacle of course is the lack of availability of separately supplied chassis. Some of us may be willing to buy the complete model and rely on selling on or recycling in some way the left over parts, but I feel a lot of potential customers will baulk at this point.

 

[pipe dream]Linking this to some earlier posts about RTR P4, can feel a business plan coming on. What this needs is an integrated approach operated by a retailer, who can get the 'feedstock models' on wholesale terms. Split models that have P4 worthy bodies: offer the bodies with RTR P4 chassis (made in house); use the OO chassis with made in house bodies for models of types not otherwise available RTR. It is so simple that I cannot help but feel that a savvy retailer would already be about it, which rather tends to say there is no money in it...[/pipe dream]