Manufacturing models

[souwest]

Hi,

 

The main model manufacturers whether based in the UK, or the UK arm of US companies all manufacture their models in China. Well actually they contract with companies in China to manufacture their models there.

 

I wonder if most UK modellers would rather have cheap models make anywhere and not care about the location/ conditions of manufacture rather than canvass the companies for a UK based production facility.

 

It would be interesting to know the rejection rates/ defective return ratios - of course we will never see this in an interview with a model company executive. I doubt if any of the main magazines whould be supportive of this - they may not get their models to review or other freebies.

 

We are in the middle of a global depression as bad as the 1930s, and British manufacturing has sufferred for many years. One arguement is that if it is not competitive then it should die. A great deal of our daily products including food is shipped around the world to be made, and hipped back again. The factories where many of our products are made are in conditions Victorian entrepreneurs would look askance at.

 

I am surprised that modellers in the USA are not advocating home manufacturing as so much of the US manufacturing has been hived off overseas.

 

Is there the ability? I see no reason for a UK company to have the courage to support its own citizens and help this. We are in Europe - perhaps manufacturing in Europe is an alternative?

 

Then again, as long as the models are cheap and don't electrocute you why bovver?

 

Souwest

[298]

Overseas manufacturing, purely on the basis of cheap labour, is nothing new- it's been going on since the late 1950's or so with imported brass models of US prototypes made in Japan or Korea. Some may have boycotted these products at the time but in alot of cases the prototypes chosen have never been produced as a plastic bodies RTR model and probably never will, so if you really want that model you have three choices (the others being make your own, or go without). I do recall certain "anti-China" musings when production was moved, but I've never seen a layout to contemporary standards that advertises itself as 100% British, if one did it would be ironic considering in the 90's many modern image layouts could claim to be 100% Italian.

 

Don't also forget though, the UK market is small with only domestic and a limited overseas interest, and the market has always dictated the price and therefore the quality of models, for years poorly finished plastic shells with limited added detail and cheap pancake motors were acceptable.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Poorly finished one piece plastic shells and ringpiece motors were never acceptable. Part of the problem was the number of UK enthusiasts who created a 'hair shirt cult' around these lamentable objects and bought them in vast quantity, but I digress.

...Is there the ability? I see no reason for a UK company to have the courage to support its own citizens and help this. We are in Europe - perhaps manufacturing in Europe is an alternative?...

There is no ability problem. Provided the potential work force have basic literacy and numeracy, modern low and medium tech manufacturing technique can be 'parachuted in' and be running to whatever the industry standard is for the output within three years. All it needs is the investment money. What attracts the investment money is the prospect of a workforce which can accept low wages for the medium term future.

 

And there's the obstacle, which indeed means no UK business will see a reason to invest in model railway manufacture in the UK. The only type of manufacturing that can be economically supported in developed economies is that which produces extremely high added value; and that requires a workforce with significant eductional attainment. Model railway and toy making generally is relatively low tech. It is ideal for getting agrarian economies onto the path of industrialisation. It will move through the BRIC economies in the next two to three decades, and then most likely go to Africa. That's if it continues in its present form; just for one, 3D printing is bidding fair to upset this particular apple cart...

[Jol Wilkinson]

Poorly finished one piece plastic shells and ringpiece motors were never acceptable. Part of the problem was the number of UK enthusiasts who created a 'hair shirt cult' around these lamentable objects and bought them in vast quantity, but I digress.

 

There is no ability problem. Provided the potential work force have basic literacy and numeracy, modern low and medium tech manufacturing technique can be 'parachuted in' and be running to whatever the industry standard is for the output within three years. All it needs is the investment money. What attracts the investment money is the prospect of a workforce which can accept low wages for the medium term future.

 

And there's the obstacle, which indeed means no UK business will see a reason to invest in model railway manufacture in the UK. The only type of manufacturing that can be economically supported in developed economies is that which produces extremely high added value; and that requires a workforce with significant eductional attainment. Model railway and toy making generally is relatively low tech. It is ideal for getting agrarian economies onto the path of industrialisation. It will move through the BRIC economies in the next two to three decades, and then most likely go to Africa. That's if it continues in its present form; just for one, 3D printing is bidding fair to upset this particular apple cart...

 

Kit manufacture is almost entirely UK based, but it is an entirely different "industry" and market. The castings, etches, etc. are produced here, only motors and some gears coming from abroad. Pricing, while important, is less critical than for RTR/RTP items.

 

While 3D printing is starting to have an impact, it isn't yet able to produce a finish that matches plastic moulding or even good whitemetal castings. Until it does, it won't become a mainstream manufacturing (as opposed to prototyping) process.

 

It would be good - for economic and balance of trade reasons - to see manufacturung come back to the UK. Unless buyers are willing to pay a bit of a premium for that or the quality of UK products could exceed imported stuff and become a desirable "brand" it's not likely to happen, especially with 00 products.

 

Jol

[Talltim]

I see a lot of moaning about Chinese productions on US modelling forums, and the US manufacturers that do make in the US trumpet it loudly.

Never seen anything equivanet in the UK.

[The Stationmaster]

In Britain we seem to be more than happy to buy foreign made cameras, motorbikes, cars, fridges, washing machines and whatever else you care to name so it is perhaps hardly surprising that we haven't kicked up a fuss about our model railway mass manufacturing moving to a land which has generally produced some very acceptable products and some very welcome retail prices.

 

As others have already noted production will probably move on from China as it rises up a few notches in economic wellbeing and as wage etc levels increase (see the new thread re the Kernow O2 for example) although I think such a move can only be to countries with political stability and a well founded and stable economic/business system. Eventually it might well be that manufacture could return to Britain as a land of comparatively lower wages and so on but I think market forces alone will mean that time is a long way off. And in present British economic circumstances I doubt if very many modellers would happily accept a significant hike in prices in order to see production return to Britain - as a nation we seem to be not even prepared to accept that for many basic foodstuffs, let alone 'luxuries'.

[buffalo]

...Don't also forget though, the UK market is small with only domestic and a limited overseas interest...

Exactly. Any viable production facility would need to be producing far more than just UK models to achieve competitive price levels, and preferably products that can be exported at competitive prices to other markets. Remember that the Chinese factories are not just supplying the UK market, they produce for the US, European and other markets as well.

 

Nick

[Horsetan]

.....Provided the potential work force have basic literacy and numeracy...

 

Having listened to the Reith Lectures on Radio 4 this morning, that could well become a greater problem (than it already is) in the years to come.

[Physicsman]

In Britain we seem to be more than happy to buy foreign made cameras, motorbikes, cars, fridges, washing machines and whatever else you care to name so it is perhaps hardly surprising that we haven't kicked up a fuss about our model railway mass manufacturing moving to a land which has generally produced some very acceptable products and some very welcome retail prices.

 

As others have already noted production will probably move on from China as it rises up a few notches in economic wellbeing and as wage etc levels increase (see the new thread re the Kernow O2 for example) although I think such a move can only be to countries with political stability and a well founded and stable economic/business system. Eventually it might well be that manufacture could return to Britain as a land of comparatively lower wages and so on but I think market forces alone will mean that time is a long way off. And in present British economic circumstances I doubt if very many modellers would happily accept a significant hike in prices in order to see production return to Britain - as a nation we seem to be not even prepared to accept that for many basic foodstuffs, let alone 'luxuries'.

 

Good points Mike. With the Indian population expected to outstrip that of China within a decade, and increasing "third world" aspiration, I expect production to move to India, and maybe to Vietnam, as China continues its rise. The BRIC countries are establishing a power bloc and the "civilised" West seems content to let it happen and outship their manufacturing to these places.

 

Given sufficient time (50 years?), a new equilibrium is likely to be established where it may be as cheap to manufacture in old Blighty as it is abroad.

 

In the meantime the masses in the UK are more than happy to buy from wherever so long as the price is reasonable, the product reliable and the appearance half-decent. How many of these 3 categories apply to the model rail market? In real terms, compared to the past and accounting for inflation, I'd suggest all three. So the "panacea" of models manufactured abroad looks set to continue.

 

Jeff

[PhilH]

As a matter of interest, and with no disrespect intended to Chinese, Indian et al manufacturing processes, where is the 'skilled' bit, ie toolmaking etc., carried out for models made in,say, China?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Given sufficient time (50 years?), a new equilibrium is likely to be established where it may be as cheap to manufacture in old Blighty as it is abroad...

The estimate for completion of the process of rolling out the industrial revolution to the whole world, so that 'everywhere' is fully economically developed is another 200 years; in other words we are about halfway through. But the assumptions behind that include a degree of global political stability and general international cooperation on a scale never previously sustained. So chances of something like Model Railway manufacture coming back to the UK - short of a vanity project underwritten by some magnate - is essentially zero in the lifetimes of all present readers...

[The Stationmaster]

As a matter of interest, and with no disrespect intended to Chinese, Indian et al manufacturing processes, where is the 'skilled' bit, ie toolmaking etc., carried out for models made in,say, China?

There is definitely tool making going on in China and it is using some very up-to-the-minute techniques - as some threads seem to show CADs are drawn in China, engineering prototypes are produced there, and tools are updated to final production standard there. I wonder if a more pertinent question might be to ask how much tool making for mass produced model railway products is still carried out in Britain?

[Derekl]

This would have been off-topic on the original post, but as discussion has ranged a bit it is worth noting that should you buy a BMW 3 series, a Mercedes C class, or VW Golf in the UK, they are quite likely to have been manufactured in South Africa (a BRIC country).

 

Aside, although the heavy industries in the UK were somewhat decimated from 1980 onward, there is still a lot of manufacturing industry here, mostly hi-tech (Rolls Royce airplane engines an example, or the Broughton plant producing wings for Airbus, among many others), The point made above, that these are hi-tech skilled jobs is relevant.

 

On the other hand, I happened to visit a factory in Holmfirth ("Last of the Summer Wine" country, although I have never noticed the factory in the TV series) where they make cast steel manhole covers and similar. I asked why they were still there, and not in China (a bit more politely than that). I was told that most of the production was for UK local authorities, that they all wanted their own design, and that as a result production numbers were so small that the out-sourced people could not compete on price.

 

More on topic, does Dapol not manufacture in the UK?

[jonhall]

At the risk of starting a mdellers vs collectors argument...

 

There are hundreds of skilled model railway manufacturing jobs in the UK, all our kit manufacturers. You could probably add several hundred more pro-builders as well.

 

Jon

[PhilJ W]

There is talk of using inmates of HM prisons to manufacture products. This would be ideal for some of those items made presently in the far east including model railway items.

[stewartingram]

There is talk of using inmates of HM prisons to manufacture products. This would be ideal for some of those items made presently in the far east including model railway items.

 

Not sure about that - probably come with no wheels if they are in for car related crime......

[298]

More on topic, does Dapol not manufacture in the UK?

 

Manufacture, or assemble...? (I suppose you could say the same for other manufacturers items that are assembled in the UK, usually just after the purchaser opens the box....). It's the same situation for MG cars and London Taxis that now arrive from China as a kit of parts.

[Bernard Lamb]

I wonder if a more pertinent question might be to ask how much tool making for mass produced model railway products is still carried out in Britain?

I wonder just how much tooling for any mass produced products is still made in the UK.

 

Bernard

[Barry O]

The UK can be cost competitive in any area given a level playing field and minimal personnel costs. Putting together model railway engines, coaches etc needs labour - and that's expensive here - and its getting more expensive in China too.

The use of CAD tools, laser measuring etc and specialist machining centres can be used in the UK to compete with anyone ( take a look at what Cosworth can do in terms of both delivery and re-engineering).

 

I take it the Chinese use labour intensive techniques to make masters = techniques which are going out of fashion in other industries.

 

What does concern me is the potential quality of items if it is moved to other countries in the Indian Ocean sector - if its as bad as the mass produced clothing made there we could be in deep doodoo.

 

Perhaps we can find a way to be more competitive in the UK by using modern techniques and redefining the quality of what we make and deliver?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Another possibility lies in that much misused term, a paradigm shift. What if many manufacturing processes now requiring large factories to house expensive machine tools are displaced by alternatives accessible for at home use, or in a small shop? We can now print at home and produce output that within living memory required a skilled printer, and bulky and very expensive letterpress and offset litho gear. The whole 3D printing concept is in its infancy, and there may well be other alternatives to what is presently all the go for producing solid objects on a small piece of home gear. That could mean a large slew of products being sold as downloads rather than physical objects, it is potentially a complete game changer.

[Guest Moria]

Peco is uk manufacture is it not?

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Bernard Lamb]

What does concern me is the potential quality of items if it is moved to other countries in the Indian Ocean sector - if its as bad as the mass produced clothing made there we could be in deep doodoo.

That's a bit unfair on the local workers.

They can only produce to the spec that is asked for.

Bernard

[sunbeam.20]

The last rolling stock for Australian outline powerline had made in india was generally regarded as the worst everyone had seen.

Matthew

[Happy Hippo]

For those wanting an all British product try Roundhouse Engineering: www.roundhouse-eng.com

 

A bit big for the majority, but all British nevertheless.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Ian J.]

Another avenue to look at is the high spec, high value end of the market, something not currently being sold here in the UK in model railways via conventional manufacturing (as against hand made).

 

The obvious 'elephant-in-the-room' is: would there be enough people in the world (but mainly in the UK) willing to pay the kind of prices associated with such products? Instead of £100 for a loco, think £300+. They'd have to be accurate to gauge of course, which means (within the HO/OO size bracket) either P4 or Proto87. Is there a big enough market for such a product? Historically the answer is no based on the usual answers to the scale/gauge debate, but no-one's ever tried so we don't really know.

 

NOTE: this answer is not to be taken as an excuse to start a scale/gauge debate either in this thread or on RMweb!!!