Layout signalling Validation

[Guest Moria]

Greetings all.

 

I started this thread to try and validate my thoughts for the signalling on my N gauge layout of Torcross, based on Paignton as opposed to saying please signal my layout for me The N gauge is relevant purely in regards to signals not being available with more than one feather, although to be fair, I think that's only relevant at the other end of the station.

 

I am starting with the East end of the station.. West end is scary

 

Anyhow, or anyhoo as they say over here.. Here is the diagram of the east end of the station :-

 

 

Both platforms are bi-directional

 

Please forgive if my terms are wrong as well, I'm doing a heck of a lot of assuming in this thread, so looking to learn loads as well.

 

Now.. Ist question.

 

I have a picture of the starter as it exists today at position a)....

 

 

This shows (I believe) from right to left a 3 aspect with position light (for shunting?) and a route indicator box. Since the only route options are for shunting, is it right to assume that the route indicator box is only used for shunting ?

 

Anyway assuming this is the case, I have signalled the above as follows :-

 

a) as above, but because of additional branch line, add left feather to main 3 aspect.

b ) identical to a.

c) branch line approach signal.. as I could go to either platform, I assume main route is to platform 1 so that would mean 3 aspect with right feather on it?

d) main line approach signal.. 3 aspect with right feather?

e) & f) shunt signals at ground level assuming slow enough speed that driver can see which way points are set?

 

Have I missed anything or are there better arrangements?

 

Would I also need facing locks on points around the branch line and the scissors, or is this not needed?

 

Thanks in advance for help...

 

I'm still working on drawing up the West end but will add to the thread when done.

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Judging by the layout thread the period modelled is 'now(ish)' so we can assume the signalling is similarly dated to the real thing or perhaps sometime 1970s-80s (Paignton South closed in 1972 but that area has since been resignalled, twice), Paignton North went in the late 1980s (possibly 1990). One questionmark in my mind is that 'route indicator' in theh pic and I think it might not be and is in fact an 'RA' indicator but I can't find a drawing to check that one.

 

So if we work to WR practice signals a & b will have 3 aspect heads (could be 2 aspect if you wish) plus a stencil indicator on top of the head to show which route is set plus a subsidiary head down the post or to one side with no route indicator and reading only towards a Limit of Shunt marker in the vicinity of '5' (the sub might also read to the other lines, depends on operational needs).

Signal c will be similar but with have a full size theatre indicator as it is approached by trains moving faster than those starting away. The sub in this case would read to either platform (with the main route indicator) or to the siding with a separate stencil type indicator.

Signal d could be Paignton style with a Position 1 Junction Indicator (JI = 'feather) plus a sub with a stencil which would only illuminate for the straight ahead route to Platform 2, the sub would show with the JI to Platform 1 but this strikes me as a bit unusual so I would think it more likely that the signal here would be similar to c but without a stencil indicator for the sub (the sub would read with the theatre indicator for either route.

No need for e, f would be placed clear of the fouling point where the connection from the branch enters Line No.4

 

Does that little romp through it all make sense?

 

PS Yes - all point ends in teh layout as drawn above would need FPLs

[beast66606]

Judging by the layout thread the period modelled is 'now(ish)' so we can assume the signalling is similarly dated to the real thing or perhaps sometime 1970s-80s (Paignton South closed in 1972 but that area has since been resignalled, twice), Paignton North went in the late 1980s (possibly 1990). One questionmark in my mind is that 'route indicator' in theh pic and I think it might not be and is in fact an 'RA' indicator but I can't find a drawing to check that one.

 

Cetainly looks like a RA to me too.

[Guest Moria]

Mike thanks:) had to dash away to google to get some terms

 

Thank you for update on an RA.. had never heard of it but have now found pictures.. not sure about that, but will be down there, all being well in a couple of weeks, so will get a much better look (assuming that signal is still there). Luckily though, in N, I don't think it will be working, whichever it is, but an RA would make a lot more sense I think as that picture may well have been taken after scissors was removed and there was just a crossover. I also found a sub, which I think I was calling a position light.

 

okay signal c) 1 clarification, the "siding" in the diagram on the end of the branch is only a sand drag on a point, so I think that would remove the need for a stencil indicator on c? ? There will be no shunting on this line, so would that make c) just a three aspect with theatre indicator and sub, in theory the theatre being used for both main and sub? (if not used for shunting, can I loose the sub?)

 

d) I think I will go with 3 aspect with theatre and sub as for c). You said junction indicator to platform 1, but I think I managed to confuse everyone here, should that be to road 1 (plat 2) as the main is to road 2 (plat 1) (I'll try to do better next time)

 

why no e)? is that because the sub on d) would cover it?

 

Many thanks again.

 

Regards

 

Graham

 

The limit of shunt in vacinity of 5, one on each track? or can one cover it?

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you for update on an RA.. had never heard of it but have now found pictures.. not sure about that, but will be down there, all being well in a couple of weeks, so will get a much better look (assuming that signal is still there). Luckily though, in N, I don't think it will be working, whichever it is, but an RA would make a lot more sense I think as that picture may well have been taken after scissors was removed and there was just a crossover. I also found a sub, which I think I was calling a position light.

I'm fairly sure it is still there Graham. And yes a 'subsidiary signal' is a position light - it only illuminates (two white lights) to show a proceed indication, the red of the main aspect above it is its 'stop' indication but that remains at red when the sub clears.

 

okay signal c) 1 clarification, the "siding" in the diagram on the end of the branch is only a sand drag on a point, so I think that would remove the need for a stencil indicator on c? ? There will be no shunting on this line, so would that make c) just a three aspect with theatre indicator and sub, in theory the theatre being used for both main and sub? (if not used for shunting, can I loose the sub?)

The only reason for the sub is to allow a second train to enter a platform which is already occupied (or possibly to shunt an engine onto a train standing in the platform). No need for the stencil if there is only a sand drag (do freights still run on the branch - if not and there are no 'unusual' features such as a steep descending gradient there is no need for the point towards the sand drag).

 

d) I think I will go with 3 aspect with theatre and sub as for c). You said junction indicator to platform 1, but I think I managed to confuse everyone here, should that be to road 1 (plat 2) as the main is to road 2 (plat 1) (I'll try to do better next time)

I think I'm with you - 1 is 2 and 2 is 1 (and people say Canada is supposed to be boring )

 

why no e)? is that because the sub on d) would cover it?

Basically 'yes' - if d was a long way in rear of the points (it could legitimately be 880 yards away although unusual in this situation) you would need e but as d is fairly close to the points there is no need for e as well unless you have a particular traffic reason for it - and I don't think you have.

 

Regards

Graham

 

 

The limit of shunt in vacinity of 5, one on each track? or can one cover it?

Limit of Shunt boards/ markers only apply to movements in the wrong direction so there would only be one applying to the incoming line, Line 5. Trains leave on Line 4 and you can't have a Limit of Shunt board facing a running movement.

 

However if you take a trip down to Kingswear on the steam railway you might see a facing Limit of Shunt just past Goodrington Sands halt - this is a peculiarity of the thinking of their Signal Engineer who had no properly brought up operators to check up on him until I came across it on a visit there (sorry Dave if you happen to visit this 'ere site but you know what I said!) The get-out was that they have only a few Drivers who don't work elsewhere and - don't forget this is on 12":1ft scale - 'it's my railway'. The offending LoS can be seen, mid right on the 'ground frame' control panel -

 

[beast66606]

Ouch !

[Guest Moria]

okayyyyy I think I got it, and learned The branch is, as I am sure you know, fictitious, but yes, lots of goods and theoretically a down grade, so I extended to a sand drag just in case.

 

Thanks so much.

 

I'll work on the west end diagram.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[Guest Moria]

okayyyy west end diagram, and again, my thoughts for correction on this nightmare (well to me anyway).

 

 

 

Lines 3 and 4 terminate, lines 1 and 2 go through to the previous discussion.

 

Line 5 is the yard with storage sidings and turntable area, protected by a catch point at the exit. (I am assuming all sidings beyond the catchpoint are hand lever operated and signalled by man operating levers, so no ground signals.

 

Unlike today, Preservation area in Semaphore, main line colour light.

 

okay Main line Signals , and my probably wrong reasoning

 

a) Main line arrival. 2 Main running routes.. Platform 2 main line and Platform 2 preservation. However shunting options to 3 locations, to include platform 1 mainline. so 3 aspect C/L with Route Indicator and sub signal also using RI for shunting. As there are 2 main running roputes, could it also have a RH feather indicator to indicate crossing to the preserved lines? Or.. what about <insane grin> 3 aspect colour with RH FI to cover main line and preserved line, and then sub signal with RI (or stencil indicator) above it for the three shunting routes?? (I have one of these)

 

d) Main Line departure platform 1. 3 aspect colour light with FI left (exit to preserved line) and sub signal for shunting. (also if there are RA's at east end, would asssume those here as well maybe?)

 

e) same as d) for platform 2

 

From the notes above, I am assuming no shunt limit signal on the main lines out at the tunnel mouth as it is a bidirectional line.

 

Preserved line signals

 

b ) Single arm platform starter (only one route) Can this main signal be used for shunting as well, or would it need a ground disc as well?

 

c) The two routes here are using closest crossover for preserved line (usual route) or out to main. Bracket starter, Left Arm higher. (same question re shunting signals as for b )

 

f) I think this could just be a disc, but as at Buckfastleigh, can I use a single arm signal with an O loop indicator for exit?

 

g) This release crossover is operated from a ground frame, so am thinking this is just 2 ground signals, one either side of crossover, both in 6' way and hand signalled.

 

h) Preserved line advanced started.. am thinking 2 arm signal.. home arm above "S" arm to allow for pulling stock out of a platform before reversing them into storage roads 5.

 

j) Preserved arrival signal Tricky This looks like it should be a huge 4 arm bracket signal wrong sided, but since I am using Dapol signals, I was hoping to get away with a wrong sided single arm, modified to hold a RI board unit (were these also called Clack Boxes?). I wondered if I could get away with it as it is a 25mph line so slow speed, bit like the origional Kingswear exit from the bay platform signal.

 

So, apart from the ground signals on the preserved line at the platform release, can I use the same signals for shunting or should they all be duplicated with ground discs.

 

I've probably got it all wrong, but here's hoping.

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Before anything else Graham I would suggest that the track layout is excessive in terms of the amount of connection between main line and preserved. It could easily be simplified by removing the ability to run from Line 6/Signal a towards Line 4/Presevn Platform No.2 . Most connections that I can think of between big railway and the little ones are signalled as either little better than shunt routes or are worked by ground frames (or levers in the preserved railway's signalbox effectively working as little more than a ground frame. this is done to minimise the impact of signal etc controls 'across the border' between the two - partly for simplicity but more importantly to save money - the sort of signalling you are talking about above would have cost well over £200, 000 in BR days and probably over half a million nowadays, not the sort of thing a preserved railway can afford! So apply KISS first off and leave only one connection between the two.

 

Confirm you're happy with that and amend your signals to suit the change (you won't be wasting your time in such amendment as basically you're heading in the right direction on most signals).

[Guest Moria]

Ahhh ermmmm oh err well you see sir, ermm because I made the west end a through line rather than a termination into the sidings, I errrrr "added" an extra crossover that doesn't exist on the maps to make the operation easier to run straight out from preservation land to westbound, and err whilst I could change it, it is currently laid and working.

 

Can I beg rule 1 and accept I have done wrong?

 

Having said that.. let me think on this as with the changes I have made to the fiddle yard would still give me the operation I want, so I might be able to lift that crossover in the middle and not loose too much.

 

I'll get back to you tomorrow and spend the night looking at the layout and thinking about it

 

Regards

 

Graham

[RJS1977]

Just looked up Paignton on Google Maps. Hadn't realised the connection between NR and the PDSR was so far south (it's the south side of Goodrington station!).

 

Now, how about a working model of the Quay West water slides?

[Guest Moria]

Just looked up Paignton on Google Maps. Hadn't realised the connection between NR and the PDSR was so far south (it's the south side of Goodrington station!).

 

Now, how about a working model of the Quay West water slides?

 

Actually the link is just south of Sands Road, just south of Paignton station. The one just south of Goodrington is actually from a siding that appears to be part of the TDR that loops to the west of Goodrington Halt with no connection at that point to the Main Line from what I can see. Not sure if they still use that area. It's a little confusing as it vanishes through the bridge just north of Goodrington, and it's a heck of a radius just under that bridge, assuming it's connected (I suspect it is though).

 

Oddly enough, it was that siding that I used as an excuse to move the other crossover upto Paignton station for my what may have been

 

 

Regards

 

GRaham

[The Stationmaster]

Just looked up Paignton on Google Maps. Hadn't realised the connection between NR and the PDSR was so far south (it's the south side of Goodrington station!).

Look again - on Google Maps the connection lies immediately south of Sands Road level crossing which in turn is immediately south of the throat of the PDSR station throat. The picture below - taken 26 Septr 2009 at the north end of Goodrington Sands station looking towards Paignton shows the boundary on the sidings between the two railways following some changes made, I think, in that year when the steam railway took over the southern nest of sidings by Goodrington Sands and connected them into its own line.

 

 

And this pic shows the alterations made to the control panel at Britannia Crossing to take account of the new connections at Goodrington - I'm not sure if it will show up here but the next connection to the right is labelled 'Railtrack' and is the connection I referred to above.

 

 

And this picture shows the connection to NR as it appears on the new (in 2009) control panel waiting - as it then was - installation at Britannia Crossing

 

[RJS1977]

OK - got it now - had to zoom in a lot closer in order for that one to show up! I thought from my previous visits that it should have been about there, but didn't see it on the map first time!

[Guest Moria]

Just to help me think... the circled connection is the one you would recommend loosing Mike?

 

 

 

Regards

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Just to help me think... the circled connection is the one you would recommend loosing Mike?

Regards

Graham

 

Yes Graham. And although it is slightly different you can see from my pic above that the connection at Paignton is very simple - just a crossover worked by a ground frame (although I see that you've lashed out the best part of loadsadosh on point machines for yours; I hate to think how much an HW point machine costs nowadays but it will be in tens of thousands I suspect).

[Guest Moria]

Lol. You see how much trouble assuming can get you into? I assumed that if there was a crossover between the preserved line and Network Rail that NR would want that under their control, however, I can see now that it is much more reliant on who pays and as such a simple guround frame will do (or connection to a box).

 

So the point motors.. Easy to rip up and throw away on the two crossovers that exist today and assume they are controlled from local box. (I'm moving the goodrington box up into my scene for the layout even though it will now have lots of spare levers)

 

Crossovers, still not sure, whilst I appreciate (now) the cost of these things, I suspect I am going for a rule 1 application here as origionally, when first the TDR, wasn't there a connection in this direction in Goodrington, which has now gone?

 

Will you forgive me if I override your sanity with my Rule 1?

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Lol. You see how much trouble assuming can get you into? I assumed that if there was a crossover between the preserved line and Network Rail that NR would want that under their control, however, I can see now that it is much more reliant on who pays and as such a simple guround frame will do (or connection to a box).

 

So the point motors.. Easy to rip up and throw away on the two crossovers that exist today and assume they are controlled from local box. (I'm moving the goodrington box up into my scene for the layout even though it will now have lots of spare levers)

 

Crossovers, still not sure, whilst I appreciate (now) the cost of these things, I suspect I am going for a rule 1 application here as origionally, when first the TDR, wasn't there a connection in this direction in Goodrington, which has now gone?

 

Will you forgive me if I override your sanity with my Rule 1?

 

Regards to all

 

Graham

 

I'm not sure if the Up carriage line (or whatever it was called) remained connected at Goodrington after the DVLR took over. I can only go back to 1980 with reliable source stuff and I can find no indication of a connection (or definitely a running connection) at Goodrington since then although some sort of move through sidings might have been possible but definitely wasn't officially recorded in the 1980 Appendix.

 

You can of course invoke Rule 1 as it's your railway - simple innit but by golly it doesn't arf complicate things - presumably you preserved railway's benefactor is considerably better off than Ian Allan? The only question needing to be answered now is how these connections would be worked/signalled and there things get interesting; they are of course controlled (at its end) by the 'big railway' but almost certainly actually operated by the 'little railway' - which automatically gives it control over its end. Paignton has always been shunting signals of some sort as far as I can trace, some lines don't even have that much (i.e no fixed signals at all). Somehow I can't see full running routes in either direction because of et very considerable control complications. Your view on that?

[Guest Moria]

Okay, let me do some research. I saw Brittania down there (by photo) a couple of weeks ago. Now the issue, I guess, is did she stop in paignton network rail and then flow through direct to goodrington via the sands road crossing, or did she cross light engine and reverse into paignton queens road and then run one of those trains down stabling her own stock till she returned.

 

Let me ask some people down that way and see if i can find out if it's been operation as a run through or whether theres a lot of shunting involved and changing of coaching rakes etc

 

I guess she could also have taken the whole of her train over the crossing and reversed it nto queens road as well, so i'll make some enquiries and see what the normal modus operandi is down there these days, especially as theres a special to kingswear every other weekend for the summer.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

Okay, let me do some research. I saw Brittania down there (by photo) a couple of weeks ago. Now the issue, I guess, is did she stop in paignton network rail and then flow through direct to goodrington via the sands road crossing, or did she cross light engine and reverse into paignton queens road and then run one of those trains down stabling her own stock till she returned.

 

Let me ask some people down that way and see if i can find out if it's been operation as a run through or whether theres a lot of shunting involved and changing of coaching rakes etc

I guess she could also have taken the whole of her train over the crossing and reversed it nto queens road as well, so i'll make some enquiries and see what the normal modus operandi is down there these days, especially as theres a special to kingswear every other weekend for the summer.

Regards

Graham

I think the normal mode of working is engine and train through - no need to set back into Queens Road to collect local stock (which is busy anyway) - and I think you will see it well illustrated in the ninth picture down (it's the one immediately below the first couple of seaside views) in this recent thread where the 'Brit' is on the level crossing and about to cross over to PDSR metals (the ground frame is hidden by the loco as it is immediately beyond the crossing on the right although you can see the rodding) while further down there's a view of it climbing away from Kingswear towards Britannia Crossing taken from a coach near the rear of the train. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/59387-wedding-anniversary/

[Guest Moria]

okay, and I spent the entire time after getting home from work watching YouTube videos of similar with Tornado etc crossing at Sands Lane. It would seem, from one Video, that (unless I have the wrong signal) that the departure from Paignton passes a red signal with the sub off.. maybe hand signalled?

 

okay okay .. I am going to rip up two points and replace them with plain track and save over 40k+ worth of HW point machines . Gonna take me a few days, but I'll be back with a new diagram, photo and some new signal ideas.

 

Regards

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

okay, and I spent the entire time after getting home from work watching YouTube videos of similar with Tornado etc crossing at Sands Lane. It would seem, from one Video, that (unless I have the wrong signal) that the departure from Paignton passes a red signal with the sub off.. maybe hand signalled?

 

okay okay .. I am going to rip up two points and replace them with plain track and save over 40k+ worth of HW point machines . Gonna take me a few days, but I'll be back with a new diagram, photo and some new signal ideas.

Regards

Graham

As far as I know Graham the move is signalled by a sub in either direction - definitely so from NR to PDSR and I'm fairly sure it is the same in the opposite direction as well. Doing it that way avoids any 'cross-contamination' between the two lots of signalling controls and saves a fortune in design & testing. If you look carefully at the green diagram pictured above you will see a red button (numbered 58) for a slot on the NR signal and an orange exit button on the NR line for a route from 53 plus a slot indication light at 53. These slot controls had not - at that time - been agreed with NR (and I don't know if they ever came into operation) but had been incorporated in the new panel in anticipation (or hope) as the provision of a signal at the PDSR end of the crossover reading onto NR was a new feature, the line had operated for years without one there (NR 'acceptance' being basically the release of the ground frame).

[Guest Moria]

OK Mike, had to change some fiddle yard bits to get the trains I wanted into the mix and the operational features I wanted, but this is what I am aiming for.. does this seem to fit the bill?

 

 

 

Regards

 

Graham

[The Stationmaster]

OK Mike, had to change some fiddle yard bits to get the trains I wanted into the mix and the operational features I wanted, but this is what I am aiming for.. does this seem to fit the bill?

Regards

Graham

I think that's far better Graham - simple connection in just one place 'over the border' and easily signalled (honest ). Signal J can quite legitimately be a single semaphore arm with a route indicator box (Western style?) and - depending on the sort of semaphore era you are aiming to portray - probably a Calling O arm reading only to Line 3 or 4. One of the running routes would be to the big railway and would be a very simple slot release (all the controls being on the big railway side of the fence so to speak but with mechanical interlocking and detection on the preserved railway side of the fence - all a very straightforward division).

[RJS1977]

Graham

 

Just looking at your plan, might I suggest you put a loco spur in the top left corner of the fiddle yard. That way you can bring a preserved train into one of the yard sidings then run the loco off the spur and back it on to the train. This will cut down on the amount of stock handling you need to do, though you may need to bring the road bridge forwards slightly to enable the entire move to take place "off stage".

 

Richard