sjgardiner Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Yer can't have it back unless yer promise to look after it next time....... It's that kind of attitude that almost makes a loan like this not happen. It's been cared for, and better cared for than many pieces of our own collection over the time it's been in Canada. Exporail's main pavillion which is the snazzy new building has only been around for about a decade, and before that much of the Canadian collection was outside weathering away, and large parts of it still are outside weathering away while Dominion of Canada has been safely inside, even if it hasn't received regular cleaning in that time, it's been well cared for and better cared for than many pieces of Canadian equipment. The notion you espose really annoy's Canadian railfans and you should think twice before going there. In any event, pictures from Saturday at Exporail: Full Set: http://www.flickr.co...nrailwaymuseum/ /url] Dominion of Canada oustide in the sun Head on View with Flying Scotsman headboard Dominion of Canada rear 3/4 view Lubricated Motion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2012 Nice pics thanks - did somebody forget that it didn't have a buckeye coupler at both ends? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjgardiner Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Nice pics thanks - did somebody forget that it didn't have a buckeye coupler at both ends? Yeah, several years ago. The story I've heard (not corroborated by anyone present), is that an attempt to shunt the locomotive with one of the diesels (Canadian locomotives aren't fitted with buffers) and that when they stopped the diesel which was pulling the A4, the A4 kept going right into the buckeye coupler. That fact is partly why the John Molson was in steam when i was at Exporail Saturday, it has buffers and can pull the A4 out of the shed without that problem happening again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think you should lighten up a bit.. I'm not going to change my style of writing (poor as it is) just to keep some Canadian fans "happy"... Perhaps when you've made more than 17 posts you'll have got to know me better. I hesitate to provide a link for you to this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/35109-dominion-of-canada-disturbing-pics/ Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjgardiner Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think you should lighten up a bit.. I'm not going to change my style of writing (poor as it is) just to keep some Canadian fans "happy"... Perhaps when you've made more than 17 posts you'll have got to know me better. I hesitate to provide a link for you to this thread: http://www.rmweb.co....isturbing-pics/ Best, Pete. No, I never said anything about your writing style, i was commenting on your posting content. Post counts are hardly a means of assessing anyone online, i certainly don't assume someone knows what they are saying because they've said a lot on a forum. When i found RMWeb and joined is hardly a means of assessing my knowledge and experience. The UK Rail Fan community is very well regarded in Canada, aside from the fact that many wtihin it have an ingrained mindset that both North American A4's are theirs and should be given back and that no UK locomotives should be elsewhere as only they know how to care for them. That's not really how one should treat something that was gifted in friendship around 50 years ago. The mistakes of Exporail in shunting Dominion of Canada notwithstanding (I frankly have no idea how anyone could have thought what i understand to have happened was a good idea, but i am not involved there and as i said, i don't have first hand confirmation of exactly what happened, so i don't want to unfairly/unecessarily disparage Exporail's excellent volunteers without knowing the whole and accurate story). There is nothing in that thread that i need to comment on as i've commented on it here, lots of people making illformed comments about claiming back gifts, and some of the more enlightened realizing the truth of the situation that you don't claim gifts back, and that Exporail has not done badly by Dominion of Canada all things considered. It's been under cover, kept out of the Canadian winter, accessible to the public, and most importantly, still in existance. -Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 You still don't really get it. Nevermind it is not important. I'm sure everyone will be glad that it will return to Canada fixed and with a new livery. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 25, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2012 I'm sure everyone will be glad that it will return to Canada fixed and with a new livery. Absolutely Pete - Canada is quite welcome to keep the loco in my book whether it was a gift or whether they paid for it makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. It's a near impossibility to keep all the A4s that remained in Britain in ticket - or even in working order - so why on earth we should want any more is completely beyond me. (I also find it a strange idea in some respects thaht we should be shipping back to the country the two which went overseas only to send them back again but at least it should be a chance to see some genuine BR loco painting having, I think, got rid of almost all examples of it in this country. It's one thing if, say, the sole remaining example of a class was shipped overseas but even then there was a simple remedy at the time it was withdrawn or sold for scrap and if nobody exercised that remedy then it's no use bleating now - the world has moved on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 One thing to bear in mind is that preservation in North America is generally nowhere near as well-funded as it appears to be in the UK, and painful decisions as to how to use scarce resources are an everyday thing. I spent 20 years getting my hands dirty at a streetcar museum where frankly the collection was beyond our ability to conserve let alone restore. I am not that familiar with the Montreal museum's collection, but the A4 is probably somewhat peripheral to the story they are trying to tell, assuming that story is specifically Canadian railroading. That it has been selected for conservation over other pieces of the collection which might be more important to the story says that the locomotive is well appreciated. No doubt their limited restoration resources needed to be directed elsewhere, hence the state of the A4. From the perspective of preservation in the UK, quite why you would want so many duplicates is a bit of a puzzle to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 The A4 is not really relevant at all to the story which the museum tells. It's about Canadian railways. The A4 was a gift to Canada for the Centennial in 1967 and (unlike the UK) Canada has no government-funded railway museum. As understand it, the CRHA was set up to look after an increasing collection of historic railway equipment and though the museum is Canada's national railway museum it still receives minimal government support. Its a big collection of equipment - a dozen indoor tracks each with 2-3 items on, plus a huge amount of unrestored diesels and rolling stock outdoors. When I was there in May there were 4 'staff' on duty, three under 25 and one over 60. I suspect they were all volunteers. I don't suppose I saw 25 visitors in the whole afternoon I was there, so the money isn't exactly pouring in. Canadians in general don't seem to be very interested in history - at least not railway history - and I understand the A4 is looked after by a small group of mainly ex-pat Brits. I get pretty sick of seeing people on forums and elsewhere harping on about how 60010 hasn't been cared for - especially when they haven't even seen it. In fact - it's a precious time warp. How many steam locos can you go see now that carry a 1967 BR Crewe paint job? Its rusting round the bits where it was sure to rust after 45 years since it was painted. The only way the Canadians could have stopped that rust is if they had repainted the loco - then it would be like 60008, shiny but not authentic and we'd be arguing about the shade of green and thickness of the lining - not to mention the painted-over nameplates. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Thank you, Chris. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (unlike the UK) Canada has no government-funded railway museum. Chris, while there is no standalone national government-funded railway museum in Canada, there is a railway collection in the Canada Science and Technology Museum - http://www.sciencetech.technomuses.ca/english/collection/rail.cfm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Of course here in the UK we look after our preserved locomotives, no rusting relics on our lines! http://www.flickr.co...use/6121259598/ http://www.flickr.co...7_1/5125057497/ Especially not this one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Quite! Love the Arafat one! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 speaking about "no rusty relics", I apologise for posting this - but the bit you are interested in starts at about 2:27 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 The A4 is not really relevant at all to the story which the museum tells. It's about Canadian railways. The A4 was a gift to Canada for the Centennial in 1977 and (unlike the UK) Canada has no government-funded railway museum. As understand it, the CRHA was set up to look after an increasing collection of historic railway equipment and though the museum is Canada's national railway museum it still receives minimal government support. Its a big collection of equipment - a dozen indoor tracks each with 2-3 items on, plus a huge amount of unrestored diesels and rolling stock outdoors. When I was there in May there were 4 'staff' on duty, three under 25 and one over 60. I suspect they were all volunteers. I don't suppose I saw 25 visitors in the whole afternoon I was there, so the money isn't exactly pouring in. Canadians in general don't seem to be very interested in history - at least not railway history - and I understand the A4 is looked after by a small group of mainly ex-pat Brits. I get pretty sick of seeing people on forums and elsewhere harping on about how 60010 hasn't been cared for - especially when they haven't even seen it. In fact - it's a precious time warp. How many steam locos can you go see now that carry a 1967 BR Crewe paint job? Its rusting round the bits where it was sure to rust after 45 years since it was painted. The only way the Canadians could have stopped that rust is if they had repainted the loco - then it would be like 60008, shiny but not authentic and we'd be arguing about the shade of green and thickness of the lining - not to mention the painted-over nameplates. CHRIS LEIGH There is a lot to be said for simply conserving something rather than restoring it. We had a huge debate once about the wisdom of restoring a very early electric locomotive (the Van de Poele locomotive from Derby, CT) so that it would run. The main problem was that we really didn't have enough information about the way the electric motor had been wired and how the resistance had been provided to control the motor. Also, the kind of wire used in the original winding of the armature was no longer available. In the end the thing got "restored" and is completely inaccurate since it now uses external resistance grids and a K-type controller. There is not much interest among the general public in the US in industrial history. The big areas of interest tend to be the War of Independence and the Civil War. The Park Service does a reasonable job of interpreting a few sites (e.g., Lowell MA and Steamtown in Scranton) but the various small independent museums have a very tough job surviving on the kind of budgets that come with minimal attendance and scarce public funding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I notice in the BRMNA's latest journal that the CRHA is raising funds to pay for the 'skirts' and single chimney etc on DoC. The NRM is only paying for the repainting. Seems quite a modest sum that the CRHA is seeking but even so, it may not be easy to raise. Hopefully, it will pick up some financial support from British enthusiasts once it is back in the UK, even if it is not staying here long-term. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 If the CRHA develops a website for this fundraiser perhaps we can post it here so that anyone may contribute if they so wish? Perhaps even one to help for their general costs........... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Absolutely Pete - Canada is quite welcome to keep the loco in my book whether it was a gift or whether they paid for it makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I agree - I haven't actually seen one at all in preservation in person! It would be nice to have one within fairly easy driving distance of New York. If the CRHA promote it well, when it is back, it could prove a nice little earner for them. The last time I saw one was when my Nana dangled me over a bridge near Seven Sister's Road to watch "Mallard" go past (they were all Mallards to her).... I spent most of my childhood going up to Scotland from Euston (which is a different, very enjoyable, story)... Best, Pete. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted August 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 27, 2012 If the CRHA develops a website for this fundraiser perhaps we can post it here so that anyone may contribute if they so wish? Perhaps even one to help for their general costs........... Best, Pete. http://pages.ca.inter.net/~brmna/bak2blu.htm is the best they have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 60010 has been loaded on the flatcar. Moveright's pics are on flickr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjgardiner Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 60010 has been loaded on the flatcar. Moveright's pics are on flickr. Dominion of Canada arrived in Halifax's Rockingham Yard yesterday. Information i have seen from a well connected railfan in Halifax is that the next three days are booked for moving both locomotives onto their shipping pallets and being untarped for inspections, and that they are booked to sail Sept 25 on the Atlantic Conveyor for Liverpool. I would expect that if David Othen can get access again, there will be more video from him of the unloading/preparation/loading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 The Atlantic Conveyor has left Halifax bound for Liverpool with the two A4s. Due Liverpool 8am on October 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Which of the North American A4's was offered to Tony Marchington for $300,000 in the mid 90s? I seem to recall he was willing to pay $250,000, and whilst one of the museums politely declined his offer, the other said it would 'consider' 300k? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Which of the North American A4's was offered to Tony Marchington for $300,000 in the mid 90s? I seem to recall he was willing to pay $250,000, and whilst one of the museums politely declined his offer, the other said it would 'consider' 300k? Not a story that I've ever heard. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I seem to recall reading it in an edition of Steam Railway some years back which included an interview with Tony Marchington, this being shortly after he bought Flying Scotsman and when he was still on the look out for an A4. I say Steam Railway as during the 90s the only railway magazines I read (and had subscriptions for) were Steam Railway and Rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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