Theory of General Minories

[Lacathedrale]

For what it's worth, I've finally started building a Minories.... https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/172744-an-edwardian-lbscr-terminus/

 

 

 

I had originally thought of a small goods shed in the foreground infront of the throat, as a view block  as per Cyril Freezer's "Ultimate Minories" - I'm sure it's justifiable, but I think after researching Holborn Viaduct  (i.e. the epitome of cramped Urban Terminus) which had both a tiny pilot loco shed adjacent the platforms, and had NO goods facilities at all execpt a loading dock) - I came to realise that the operation of freight trains and NPCS, which definitely happened at HV outside of peak hours between the LNWR, GNR, LSWR, and SECR does not neccesarily require dedicated goods facilities.

[Lacathedrale]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’ve always suspected that the Met Railway goods depot at Vine Street, served from the outer road of the circle line, just west of Farringdon, might have been the inspiration.

 

The real thing was very compact, one track either side of a central platform, each able to take only seven wagons, with all the goods going up in lifts to the upper floor, which had a loading bay for lorries at street level.

 

I've never come across the Met Vine Street goods depot and as a layout design element it's actually quite genious! Thank you for linking it, @Nearholmer- The typical road-bridge-view-block can have an upper-level entrance to the goods shed, and the lower level can have maybe just the archway/lift and end of the platform. At only a foot long, you might be able to make it self contained in the FY boards.

 

On 28/06/2022 at 18:07, t-b-g said:

The fairly common "half station" arrangement where the run round is completed in the fiddle yard somehow just doesn't work for me, although I know it is popular with others.

 

Layouts like Wolverhampton West Park show that this model is workable and satisfying visually, but my (meagre) experience of this is exactly as you have described:

 

I was operating a half-minories solo - and there was a need to shunt into the FY for every movement, and for every runaround move. For a tightly edited video series (I'm thinking "Bradfield Gloucester Square"-style) it would have been fine, and I'm sure would have worked well for an observer - but it fell down completely as an operator, as the suspension of disbelief was interrupted every time with the very unrailway-like shoving of the traverser roads.

 

That said, I have made a compromise on my layout so that it can be operational in three boards: platforms - throat - FY. I accept that this is not an ideal scenario for the reason above mentioned, but it does get me 'in the door' and the goal is to include a fourth board with a stretch of track up to an advanced starter, to permit all moves to take place on-layout.

 

 

[Morello Cherry]

Apologies if this has been cited as an example before. I came across an interesting station that had (to me) some very strong Minories vibes. Oporto Trindade up until the 1970s when it was steam worked. It comes complete with coaling stage (albeit with 6 platforms). Interesting trackwork and a very compact space.

 

View from on top of the tunnel

 

 

Rush hour in 1974 - which I think is the effect most of us would like to create with a Minories type layout.

 

 

Towards the tunnel mouth and where the signal box was.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bf_Porto_Trindade.jpg

Edited June 30, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

Apologies if this has been cited as an example before. I came across an interesting station that had (to me) some very strong Minories vibes. Oporto Trindade up until the 1970s when it was steam worked. It comes complete with coaling stage (albeit with 6 platforms). Interesting trackwork and a very compact space.

 

View from on top of the tunnel

 

 

 

Rush hour in 1974 - which I think is the effect most of us would like to create with a Minories type layout.

 

 

 

Towards the tunnel mouth and where the signal box was.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bf_Porto_Trindade.jpg

These pictures are much clearer than anything that has been posted before. If you have any more of the same quality please add them. I say that as I have noted runarounds on P1-2 and P3-4 but not P5-6

[Morello Cherry]

Apologies if these have been posted. There is this image from further round (the lack of round round on 5-6 is clearer here). What I like as an option for modelling is the use of the cliff face, it gives another way of conveying why this is a cramped space - ie we had to cut this flat space out of rock and this was as big as we could make it and so we've stuffed everything into this tiny space.

 

 

There is this blog with some photos - http://portoarc.blogspot.com/2016/12/comboio-xi-estacoes-da-boavista-e-da.html

 

Thinking about when people talk about diesel era and the mix of trains between loco hauled and dmu

 

and this youtube video showing the intensive operation in steam days.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Pacific231G]

On 30/06/2022 at 09:32, Lacathedrale said:

I was operating a half-minories solo - and there was a need to shunt into the FY for every movement, and for every runaround move. For a tightly edited video series (I'm thinking "Bradfield Gloucester Square"-style) it would have been fine, and I'm sure would have worked well for an observer - but it fell down completely as an operator, as the suspension of disbelief was interrupted every time with the very unrailway-like shoving of the traverser roads.

 

That said, I have made a compromise on my layout so that it can be operational in three boards: platforms - throat - FY. I accept that this is not an ideal scenario for the reason above mentioned, but it does get me 'in the door' and the goal is to include a fourth board with a stretch of track up to an advanced starter, to permit all moves to take place on-layout.

 

 

Though there's a significant overlap I agree that there is a difference between a layout optimised for  viewing at an exhibition and one designed primarily to entertain the operator(s).

For the former, the operator doesn't really need any suspension of disbelief (though it does make operating more engaging) and you can have "bitsa" stations where some of the operation involves sleight of hand off-stage.

For the latter though you ideally want to be able to set up the fiddle yard,  for the next few trains at least, and then do no more than select the road for the next movement in or out with as few visits "backstage" as possible.

I'm curious about what a "half-minories" might be but on my own layout at home, so long as some of the train stays in my sight, I don't find running into the fiddle yard a problem in terms of my own suspension of belief.

I operate the layout from the front (not ideal for exhibition but better at home) and the empty road in the fiddle yard just becomes, in my imagination, the running line as far as the limit of shunt. I did actually design the layout for all the shunting moves for a normal train to be carried out on the station board so that it could be used without the fiddle yard as  a shunting layout. In practice though I found that I wanted the train to arrive from and return to somewhere else even if that was just a single track "fiddle-stick".  I've also found that running goods trains with too many wagons for the run round loop makes the operation far more of a challenge and that does require trains to shunt into the FY.  At home I now even attach  the screen that hides the fiddle yard even though that was only intended for the occasions when I take it out.  

Edited July 1, 2022 by Pacific231G

[RobinofLoxley]

6 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Apologies if these have been posted. There is this image from further round (the lack of round round on 5-6 is clearer here). What I like as an option for modelling is the use of the cliff face, it gives another way of conveying why this is a cramped space - ie we had to cut this flat space out of rock and this was as big as we could make it and so we've stuffed everything into this tiny space.

 

 

There is this blog with some photos - http://portoarc.blogspot.com/2016/12/comboio-xi-estacoes-da-boavista-e-da.html

 

Thinking about when people talk about diesel era and the mix of trains between loco hauled and dmu

and this youtube video showing the intensive operation in steam days.

 

Not only the big cliff but the film clips show trains disappear into a tunnel not far in. That would make a great scenic break for a model!

[Morello Cherry]

Exactly.

 

For some reason previously it would only post the link rather than the wiki image but I've got it working this is looking the other way which shows the signal box and the tunnel. I think it gives a couple potential twists that could easily be deployed by anyone wanting to build a Minories layout.

 

[KingEdwardII]

On 30/06/2022 at 01:30, Pacific231G said:

Ramsgate Sands was a busy passenger terminus.

Thanks for pointing me at Ramsgate. I had not realized that the railways of Ramsgate had such a complex history. Once a town has multiple stations, many things become possible. It certainly appears as if the main goods traffic for Ramsgate was handled at Ramsgate Town station so that the traffic at Ramsgate Sands/Ramsgate Harbour was minor by comparison.

 

You would not know it today that the current Ramsgate station replaced both the Ramsgate Town and Ramsgate Harbour stations and that it is entirely a creation of the Southern, post grouping - including the through line. Quite a major change for such a late date.

 

Wells in Somerset - very much a small country town even today - had 3 goods yards. 2 on the GWR and one on the SDJR. Another example of complex history, in this case perpetuated until the lines all fell to the axe in the 1960s.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Lacathedrale]

I also have found satisfaction in Dover Harbour (not Marine) station - initially a terminus with two platforms, four tracks and only one runaround. It then sprouted connections in all directions - a through line to the Admiralty Pier, a carriage/goods siding behind the Up platform, and a strange skewed connection around underneath a movable section of platform.

 

 

View showing the original terminus end of the station

 

A view towards London, showing the track under the movable platform section.

 

It was another one of those stations adjacent goods facilities and so needed none of its own, but the carriage siding behind the Up platform (where the carriages are stationed in the above photograph) was used for the loading and unloading of coal wagons/etc.

 

The shuffling of carriages to the Admiralty pier and and vans around to the others using Dover Harbour as a pseudo reversing terminus would make a compelling justification for a Minories-style operation, I think! The station lost its overall roof and became a fully through station early on, but the station buildings and chimney still remain.

 

@Pacific231G a 'half minories' in this case was only using half of the station throat, the final connection of the lower platforms to the outbound line was off-layout.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Satan's Goldfish]

Had a quick play about with the 2 track goods idea and came up with the below (All turnouts are Peco medium apart from a Hornby Y). If movements are only likely off-peak then I assume goods arriving in a platform then being shunted by the pilot into the shed via the departure line is acceptable. I did originally draw it with a double slip creating the 2 goods track and a trap before the running line, but changed it to a simple point and 2x traps to help with the cramped appearance.

 

I also added a siding trailing onto the arrivals line. I did ponder on whether to use this as mentioned by others as the end of a bigger yard, or end of a docks branch to allow more freight activity. But to keep the track work as simple as possible and keeping in mind the urban location, reasoned a milk tank unloading platform with the co-op/warehouse/distribution building on top of the retaining wall above would match the location and hide the tracks going off scene below.

 

 

Even though it's drawn at 24" wide, it should fit in an 18" width. 

[Morello Cherry]

On 30/06/2022 at 02:30, Pacific231G said:

That's not necessarily so Mike. Ramsgate Sands was a busy passenger terminus. especially for holiday and tripper traffic   but it had a very small two road goods yard tucked between the terminus and the cliffs behind that I assume served just the harbour and beachfront area. 

 

I thnk there was a small goods shed and it also seems to have handled coal, possibly for the fishing fleet and local guest houses etc. 

 

The main goods depot of a mainline railway associated with its major terminus would indeed be large, as at Paddington or Bishopsgate (Liverpool St), and probably separated somewhat from the passenger terminus. However, a fairly large terminus could ocassionally have a relatively  small goods yard serving just the local needs of the district the terminus happened to be in while the passenger terminus served the whole city.

Though it's not in Britain, there was a particularly good example of this at the St. Paul station in Lyon where a busy five platform passenger terminus handled mainly commuter traffic  but with a relatively small goods shed and yard alongside it even though the city's main (and very large)  goods yards were elsewhere. 

 

I think that in a large city, and possibly also at Ramsgate Sands, such a local yard would probably be served by trip workings rather than being a destination/origin of longer distance goods trains.

Alternative approaches are to use a kickback goods yard but assume that it's one end of a much larger yard stretching back alongside the main line or to make the goods sidings not a goods yard as such but rather the exchange sidings for a line serving  docks or local industries. 

 

 

For anyone interested there is a model of Ramsgate Sands/Habour at the Museum in Ramsgate and a youtube video of it.  Maybe it is me, but I think it needs to be a foot wider to include the beach front. That said you'd still need a big space for it. Sadly (but understandably) the operation in the museum doesn't really reflect the intensive operation you would get.

 

 

[Regularity]

Is it me, or is the R1 on the up platform road, but the turntable aligned to the centre release road?

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Is it me, or is the R1 on the up platform road, but the turntable aligned to the centre release road?

 

There's a question: with the turntable at the dead end of both platform lines, what were the interlocking arrangements? 

[5BarVT]

17 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Is it me, or is the R1 on the up platform road, but the turntable aligned to the centre release road?

Turntable looks midway between later in the video.

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's a question: with the turntable at the dead end of both platform lines, what were the interlocking arrangements? 

NLS 25” turn of the century map shows what looks like a run off on the cliff side platform so I would assume TT set for sea side platform to run in.

Paul.

[roythebus1]

Try Edgware Road in Metropolitan Railway days. Not only a through station and terminus, but also had a loco shed, carriage works, a small goods handling facility, but a double junction off-stage. There was a small-scale NLS map copy on the FB Metropolitan Railway group earlier this week.

 

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's a question: with the turntable at the dead end of both platform lines, what were the interlocking arrangements? 

Normal method is an additional turntable bolt interlocked with, or worked from, the signal box lever frame.  The Requirements required turntables to be interlocked with signal unless they were a safe distance from the running line.

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

NLS 25” turn of the century map shows what looks like a run off on the cliff side platform so I would assume TT set for sea side platform to run in.

 

So I see: https://maps.nls.uk/view/103679480.

 

12 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Try Edgware Road in Metropolitan Railway days. Not only a through station and terminus, but also had a loco shed, carriage works, a small goods handling facility, but a double junction off-stage. There was a small-scale NLS map copy on the FB Metropolitan Railway group earlier this week.

 

Some interesting trackwork: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101201289.

 

Everything labelled "Engine Shed" on that 1893 survey but that may just be down to change of use over the years or just lack of knowledge on the part of the surveyors.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Normal method is an additional turntable bolt interlocked with, or worked from, the signal box lever frame.  The Requirements required turntables to be interlocked with signal unless they were a safe distance from the running line.

Wot he sed.

 

Arriving trains would not be accepted unless the turntable was aligned and locked with the down road. Most movements off the turntable used the central road, and the departure (up) road  also had a short safety siding, so that shunting movements into the platform would not end up in the pit. My guess is that the safety point may have been released by a locking bar when the turntable was aligned to the up platform road, but that might be a local (ground frame) arrangement, worked from the box, a weighted hand lever to keep the turnout on the “normal” (safety) route, or I could - not for the first time - be talking out of my elbow…

[Morello Cherry]

The state of the brickwork in this photo suggests that a few drivers might well have missed their stopping points.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Maybe it is me, but I think it needs to be a foot wider to include the beach front.

 

Hmm, yes, at least a foot wider to show anything of the beach, or the esplanade, or the sidings near Augusta Stairs.

 

 

Ref : https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.33483&lon=1.42610&layers=168&b=1

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Everything labelled "Engine Shed" on that 1893 survey but that may just be down to change of use over the years or just lack of knowledge on the part of the surveyors.

It was an assemblage of carriage shed/workshop and loco shed/workshop, and there were satellite ‘loco hutches’ nearby to stable overspill locos.

 

c10 years ago, a small group were in the process of building a very accurate model of the location in dual-gauge days, and they’d made solid progress, but that was interrupted by the death of one member and I’ve not heard anything since. Great pity if the project has been abandoned, because it was shaping-up to be a museum quality depiction.

 

I plead guilty to very close involvement in the sweeping away of the last, well-hidden, remnants of the site in order to create a major traction substation to feed the latest generation of Met and Circle Line trains.

[kitpw]

Although not a turntable, the terminus part of Baker Street (MET) had a sector plate in its first iteration after the northwards extension of the line past Lord's to Swiss Cottage with a single track link into the original Met system.  I did work out a track plan (in 7mm) about 3.6m long intending to put fiddle yards each end as both ends go into tunnels - I dug out the plan from archive and have posted it here.  I have a printed copy of the relevant OS but I can't see it on NLS:  by the earliest date of their London maps, the station layout had changed quite a bit.  I recall seeing the Edgware Road model referred to above on the Broadgauge Society website - it looked pretty good with some very challenging trackwork.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Turntable looks midway between later in the video.

NLS 25” turn of the century map shows what looks like a run off on the cliff side platform so I would assume TT set for sea side platform to run in.

Paul.

That's correct. You can see it in this image.

Until I saw the OS map I assumed there was a similar safety spur on the "down" side, (That was the arrangement at Sheerness Dockyard, where a type of sector plate at the end of the two platforms was used as a release) but I think you're probably right about the TT being normally locked to the beach side platform with the signals for that platform only released when it was. The interlocking for the cliff side "up" platform presumably required the points on the up side to be normalled to the spur. From the few photos I have of Ramsgate Beach (aka Ramsgate Harbour) It looks as though they did operate it with a departure and arrival side using the bays on each side for shorter trains. With only a barrow crossing between the platforms I think it would have to have been worked that way. The track beside the "up" bay clearly served as a carriage siding at busy times and as a second goods siding (full of coal wagons in the one image I have of it with wagons) at other times leaving just the one track  beneath the cliff serving mileage and the goods shed. One photo does though show carriages occupying the centre road so it would be interesting to know how it was operated. Possibly with train engines shunting ECS into the carriage sidings beyond the tunnel at quieter times but use of pilots on the busiest days.

It's interesting to consider how the station might have developed in more modern times had it not been closed. A possible subject?

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

I have a printed copy of the relevant OS but I can't see it on NLS

 

Does this help? Rotated about 45 degrees to suit display here.

 

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101201520