Theory of General Minories

[Pacific231G]

On 04/02/2024 at 22:46, Harlequin said:

Has anyone built a TT:120 Minories yet?

 

At TT:120 scale, Minories SP35 would be 1.352 m long and 193mm wide, or call it 4ft 6in by 7 3/4in in old money.

 

The original Minories was 5ft long in TT3 but as that also used 12mm gauge track I don't think I'd scale it down from that. I though it worth trying out the same size with Peco TT120 medium points ( claimed to be a B6) and it does comfortably fit onto two 30 inch x 9inch board (this is a 6inch grid) 

 

I've allowed an inch between the turnout at each end and the board end. In his original article CJF did say that it would be improved by plugging in another foot (or  more) of parallel track at the end so I have . The next step will be to check coach and loco lengths with the Hornby catalogue and see what sort of train it could take. 

Update, with the one foot extension so 40 inches available (at least on platform 1)   it'll take a Dutchess of Atholl (chosen only because, as a child, that was the HD 3 rail loco I had on my very first layout) and four Mk1  coaches reasonably comfortably . Personally- i think four coaches is a bit too short for a Pacific hauled main line express especially in this smaller scale so I'd want to add enough length for a five coach train (Odd numbers 3 & 5 always seem somehow more satisfying than an even number like 4)  If Hornby ever bring out a loco (diesel or steam) more suitable for a loco hauled suburban service (or even a smaller loco for semi-fasts and locals- a Hall would be nice) then the origjnal concept of Minories kicks in. 

Edited February 5 by Pacific231G

[Schooner]

At which point we're close to the recurring question: is CJF's Minories an unbeatable commuter-terminus formation?

 

If more space is available does one simply add more platform length, or indeed more platforms, to suit? Or is there another Reference Plan we should be looking towards?

 

Asking for a friend... 😇

[Nearholmer]

 

Four platforms, rather than three (OK, two were through, but that didn’t matter for these porpoises, or dolphins), and operable to an incredible intensity. And, a very good theme tune.

 

Oh, and a poem (which was better read by Betjeman himself, but I can’t find a copy of that recording for free on-line):

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

 

As I’ve said before though, if you operated it as it was designed to operate, it would rapidly become a job, rather than a relaxing hobby, so maybe you need to find somewhere with a different pace, and greater variety of trains - I’m sure this thread has been round this oval on the carpet a couple of times before.

 

 

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

As I’ve said before though, if you operated it as it was designed to operate, it would rapidly become a job, rather than a relaxing hobby, so maybe you need to find somewhere with a different pace, and greater variety of trains - I’m sure this thread has been round this oval on the carpet a couple of times before.

 

 

 

I posted this pic in the Flickr thread, but it does show how great a Baker street based layout could look.

 

[Northroader]

I’ll have to sit upstairs and have a nice long think about it:

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

Or is there another Reference Plan we should be looking towards

Buckingham GC?

[Schooner]

38 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Buckingham

As per

?

Edited February 5 by Schooner
A classic, a beauty and by all accounts a ball to operate!

[simon b]

30 minutes ago, Schooner said:

As per

?

 

Great layout, but it's not really an urban comutter terminus.

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, simon b said:

 

Great layout, but it's not really an urban comutter terminus.

Not as built but the four-platform layout with direct access between all four and the turntable would be a good feature to incorporate.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

As per

?

And a good demonstration of how much more you can fit in if you go back to the pre-grouping era. (which, unfortunately doesn't float my boat) Buckingham's two long plaforms are only 4ft 6ins long and the shorter one 3ft 6ins yet the longer ones will take a London express with a main line loco and five coaches. 

Edited February 5 by Pacific231G

[fezza]

8 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

And a good demonstration of how much more you can fit in if you go back to the pre-grouping era. (which, unfortunately doesn't float my boat) Buckingham's two long plaforms are only 4ft 6ins long and the shorter one 3ft 6ins yet the longer ones will take a London express with a main line loco and five coaches. 

It's a shame Hornby didn't launch TT with Pre-Grouping Edwardian stock - something "different" that might have helped it to be more of a success. Some of the loco and coach liveries of that era were so beautiful and the smaller locos and carriages of that era would have demonstrated TT's space saving characteristics much better.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

12 hours ago, Schooner said:

At which point we're close to the recurring question: is CJF's Minories an unbeatable commuter-terminus formation?

 

If more space is available does one simply add more platform length, or indeed more platforms, to suit? Or is there another Reference Plan we should be looking towards?

 

Asking for a friend... 😇

Cyril Freezer's objective with Minories was to demonstrate that you could build a busy urban terminus in the sort of space normally only considered appropriate for a small branch line affair where, in reality, the same train would trundle up and down the line all day relieved only by the daily goods train and just maybe a through coach. Minories by contrast is  based on a suburban turnover operation which could be very busy.

Oddly, the most Minories like terminus I personally  remember n terms of busyness was Ryde Pier Head. I went there on a family holiday when I was about five ot six and vividly remember four trains lined up on the platforms when we arrived on the ferry (we stayed in a guest house on the Esplanade so travelled on the pier tram but did take a train from Esplanade to Shanklin  There was not though much variety in the trains on the Island's railways.

There are other excellent reference plans for compact main line termini. With Borchester Market, you could lose the colliery branch and the junction to make a simple L or U main line terminus with planty of operation, or a real example in Ramsgate Beach/Harbour which had inrtense passenger operation, a small goods yard, a turntable release, a tunnel  mouth just beyond the station throat all on a very cramped site on a shelf between the cliffs and the beach. 

 

With Minories, if you single the main line and lose the loco spur  you are left wiith two points accessing three platforms. It couldn't be simpler but, as Fort William, a reversing terminus,  it had an incredible variety of often fairly short trains (the Hogwarts Express is five coaches) complete with sleeping cars, diners and observation coaches coming on and  off as train from Glasgow and Mallaig - sometimes with summer reliefs, cross there, tail loads of fish, even an early motorail service and all providing gainful employment for not one but two pilot locos. You could choose to operate Minories as that sort of station rather thana as a city suburban affair. 

I think another plan worth eyeing up is John Charman's Charford. It was very much a branch line terminus (albeit with through coaches off the ACE and Bulleid light Pacifics) but, if you take the basic plan and simply lengthen it somewhat with the loco release and cattle dock road turned into  a third platform you'd get a  perfectly good secondary main line terminus.   

 

Edited February 6 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

26 minutes ago, fezza said:

It's a shame Hornby didn't launch TT with Pre-Grouping Edwardian stock - something "different" that might have helped it to be more of a success. Some of the loco and coach liveries of that era were so beautiful and the smaller locos and carriages of that era would have demonstrated TT's space saving characteristics much better.

 

 

The trouble with that is that Edwardian era stock already does the space saving job without having to go down a scale. It's worth looking at Gavin Thrumm's Great Moor Street for that- though his Minories is set just after the grouping. 

https://thrumlington.blogspot.com/2015/06/great-moor-street-minories.html

[D-A-T]

But Buckingham GC is Marylebone in all but name. To my way of thinking it is a grown up Minories. 

Edited February 6 by D-A-T
Typo

[D-A-T]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Buckingham GC?

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

As per

?

 

1 hour ago, simon b said:

 

Great layout, but it's not really an urban comutter terminus.

Sorry I don’t post often so I’m not used to the Forum software. The above quotes should have been in my previous post.

Mea Culpa. 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

But Buckingham GC is Marylebone in all but name. To my way of thinking it is a grown up Minories. 

Yes - but I think it has a key feature, namely the turntable access, much as MInories has the minimisation of reverse curves.

[simon b]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Not as built but the four-platform layout with direct access between all four and the turntable would be a good feature to incorporate.

It's a good exercise in track building, but if you lay that out in streamline how much space does it really take up? I seem to remember something about very sharp curves being used in part of it.

[simon b]

The one that I'm surprised CJF never tried to imitate is Holborn Viaduct. That has alot going for it with overall roofs, 6 platforms, and a very compact track layout. 

 

Obviously he didn't have the slip points to work with that we do now, but that is the one that most screams comutter terminus to me.

[Annie]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

The one that I'm surprised CJF never tried to imitate is Holborn Viaduct. That has alot going for it with overall roofs, 6 platforms, and a very compact track layout. 

 

Obviously he didn't have the slip points to work with that we do now, but that is the one that most screams commuter terminus to me.

Definitely interesting. (1900s OS map)

 

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Definitely interesting. (1900s OS map)

 

 

It got a little simpler as time went on, but there is scope for a very interesting layout there. I did lay it out using Tilling slip points once, it worked very well as they have a more shallow curve.

[Schooner]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Borchester Market

'50s / "as built":

 

'80s / "as preserved":

Edited February 6 by Schooner

[St Enodoc]

Just now, Schooner said:

'50s:

 

'80s/as preserved:

Two entirely different layouts, of course.

[simon b]

A great picture which I cant post for copyright reasons, but here's a link for you.

 

https://di262mgurvkjm.cloudfront.net/e67f128b-abca-43cd-9aa6-44a89c36f633/Holborn_Viaduct_station-SM1956_ARCHIVE~2_xgaplus.jpg

 

 

 

[Annie]

9 minutes ago, simon b said:

A great picture which I cant post for copyright reasons, but here's a link for you.

 

https://di262mgurvkjm.cloudfront.net/e67f128b-abca-43cd-9aa6-44a89c36f633/Holborn_Viaduct_station-SM1956_ARCHIVE~2_xgaplus.jpg

 

 

 

Tight curves as evidenced by those check rails.  Thanks for posting the interesting picture link.  I don't know if I'll do anything just yet, but it's certainly something to think about.