Theory of General Minories

[Northroader]

The old approach into Holborn Viaduct, with a bridge over Ludgate Hill, was quite picturesque:

[Lacathedrale]

 

Lovely, but hardly Minories!

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Lovely, but hardly Minories!

 

Do we need a new topic, "Majories"?

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Lovely, but hardly Minories!

 

You could argue it was in it's final years....

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

A great picture which I cant post for copyright reasons, but here's a link for you.

 

https://di262mgurvkjm.cloudfront.net/e67f128b-abca-43cd-9aa6-44a89c36f633/Holborn_Viaduct_station-SM1956_ARCHIVE~2_xgaplus.jpg

 

 

 

What used the short platforms? They're not electrified, I see.

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

What used the short platforms? They're not electrified, I see.

 

They were too short to be used by passenger trains after electrification, so mainly used by parcel vans. I would imagine loco's would sometimes wait in them to haul the parcel trains back out, as there was no runaround at that time.

 

They were little used and done away with after a few years.

Edited February 6 by simon b

[fezza]

By the end Holborn Viaduct was very minimalist...

[Pacific231G]

11 hours ago, simon b said:

The one that I'm surprised CJF never tried to imitate is Holborn Viaduct. That has alot going for it with overall roofs, 6 platforms, and a very compact track layout. 

 

Obviously he didn't have the slip points to work with that we do now, but that is the one that most screams comutter terminus to me.

He did! There's a complete plan for it in his 1993 book "Model Railway Operation" ch 10 The City Terminus. In fact, the plan includes (from South to North) the south bank approach to Blackfriars, Blackfriars (formerly St. Paul) Ludgate Hill (original and new) and High Holborn, which for some reason is what he called Holborn Viaduct, with the tracks down to Snow hill and the Widened Lines. 

 There are actually only three double slips in the entire three station complex (one of them at Holborn Viaduct but a lot of scissors crossovers. Holborn Viaduct has a very Minories like set of loco spurs off the easten end of platform one which presumably is where he got the idea from. . 

He didn't turn the complex into a dimensioned layout plan because he reckoned the whole thing was far too big- even in N, but did say that any of the three stations would be eminently modellable though his preference was for Blackfriars. That chapter them went on to include three plans for city termini, one of them Minories (with a kick back goods shed) followed by two five platform types one of them a Southern Railway/Region north of the river terminus straight off a viaduct over the Thames and clearly inspired by Charing Cross and Cannon Street.   

 

There is an excellent image of the Holborn viaduct approach amongst others including some very interesting then and now images of Farringdon and the Snow Hill tunnel  her http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Holborn_Viaduct_station.html   

 

The odd thing about Holborn Viaduct is that I must have seen it and the approach bridge over Fleet Street a hundred times but never noticed that it had gone when it did. There's absolutely no trace now that there ever was a railway there. Is the Thameslink Station actually on the site of Hoborn Viaduct low level and it is very pleasing to actually be able once again to travel through the Snow Hill tunnel and onto the widened lines (I last did it to get from Blackfriars to St. Pancras and it was also very strange to get to Blackfriars from the entrance on the South Bank.  

Edited February 6 by Pacific231G

[D-A-T]

My “enlarged” Minories (when it gets built) will be based on ‘South for Moonshine’ which I think has more than hint of Borchester Market about it as well. 

[simon b]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

He did! There's a complete plan for it in his 1993 book "Model Railway Operation" ch 10 The City Terminus. In fact, the plan includes (from South to North) the south bank approach to Blackfriars, Blackfriars (formerly St. Paul) Ludgate Hill (original and new) and High Holborn, which for some reason is what he called Holborn Viaduct, with the tracks down to Snow hill and the Widened Lines. 

 There are actually only three double slips in the entire three station complex (one of them at Holborn Viaduct but a lot of scissors crossovers. Holborn Viaduct has a very Minories like set of loco spurs off the easten end of platform one which presumably is where he got the idea from. . 

He didn't turn the complex into a dimensioned layout plan because he reckoned the whole thing was far too big- even in N, but did say that any of the three stations would be eminently modellable though his preference was for Blackfriars. That chapter them went on to include three plans for city termini, one of them Minories (with a kick back goods shed) followed by two five platform types one of them a Southern Railway/Region north of the river terminus straight off a viaduct over the Thames and clearly inspired by Charing Cross and Cannon Street.   

 

There is an excellent image of the Holborn viaduct approach amongst others including some very interesting then and now images of Farringdon and the Snow Hill tunnel  her http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Holborn_Viaduct_station.html   

 

The odd thing about Holborn Viaduct is that I must have seen it and the approach bridge over Fleet Street a hundred times but never noticed that it had gone when it did. There's absolutely no trace now that there ever was a railway there. Is the Thameslink Station actually on the site of Hoborn Viaduct low level and it is very pleasing to actually be able once again to travel through the Snow Hill tunnel and onto the widened lines (I last did it to get from Blackfriars to St. Pancras and it was also very strange to get to Blackfriars from the entrance on the South Bank.  

 

Now that's interesting. I've never heard reference to that plan before, or the book for that matter! Will have to get a copy and have a read.

 

The thameslink station is built between the old low level station and Ludgate hill station. If you come out of Smithfeild sidings you can still see the old low level platforms before you reach the new station. There was an interesting period when the snowhill tunnel had been reinstated for thameslink traffic, but Holborn viaduct was still in use. The old platform at Ludgate hill was demolished so the tracks could be slewed over and the junction put back in.

 

 

And this pic which I forgot I had earlier.

 

 

Edited February 6 by simon b

[simon b]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

My “enlarged” Minories (when it gets built) will be based on ‘South for Moonshine’ which I think has more than hint of Borchester Market about it as well. 

 

Now that I like alot. No reverse curves to worry about either.

[Annie]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

My “enlarged” Minories (when it gets built) will be based on ‘South for Moonshine’ which I think has more than hint of Borchester Market about it as well. 

May I ask where that plan is taken from?

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, simon b said:

 

Now that's interesting. I've never heard reference to that plan before, or the book for that matter! Will have to get a copy and have a read.

 

The thameslink station is built between the old low level station and Ludgate hill station. If you come out of Smithfeild sidings you can still see the old low level platforms before you reach the new station. There was an interesting period when the snowhill tunnel had been reinstated for thameslink traffic, but Holborn viaduct was still in use. The old platform at Ludgate hill was demolished so the tracks could be slewed over and the junction put back in.

 

 

And this pic which I forgot I had earlier.

 

 

PM with of CJF's plan should be with you. 

That B&W photo really seems to capture the atmosphere of the lines around there and the widened lines. For my money, the best model railway to have captured that atmosphere was Geoff Ashdown's EM  Tower Pier. Operationally a Minories (with a separate goods line) and all fitted into two metres of scenic and one of cassette fiddle yard. The longest loco hauled train it could handle was a Quad Art but good use of two overbridges and an overall canopy means you never reailised just how short it was . 

 

A SAD UPDATE 

While trying to find out a bit more about Geoff Ashdown and Tower Pier just now I discovered very sadly that he died on the 24th March last year. I wasn't sure if it was the same Geoff Ashdown but he was an officer n the Salvation Army and talking about his retirement in 2020 he mentioned exhibiiting Tower Pier 11 times.  Geoff had invited me to one of his operating evenings near Southend but unfortunately circumstances and the Covid pandemic meant that I was never able to take him up on that.  

Edited February 6 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, D-A-T said:

My “enlarged” Minories (when it gets built) will be based on ‘South for Moonshine’ which I think has more than hint of Borchester Market about it as well. 

That reminds me of the enlarged version of E.R. Carrroll's Victoria.I recall it had the Terminus (Victoria) then a very long convoluted run with a couple of holding sidings that eventually brought trains back to Victoria (though there was a branch)  

[simon b]

24 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

That reminds me of the enlarged version of E.R. Carrroll's Victoria.I recall it had the Terminus (Victoria) then a very long convoluted run with a couple of holding sidings that eventually brought trains back to Victoria (though there was a branch)  

That was a good way to design a layout. Operate it with a few freinds, or leave the route set to act as a return loop for solo operation.

 

The above plan is a winner as it seems perfectly doable with off the shelf track, that's where something like Buckingham falls down.

[D-A-T]

I’m wary of posting anymore for copyright reasons. (Under the fair use doctrine of copyright, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports).

The track plan is from an an old, 1970s I think, MRC Annual. The article is by S W Stevens Stratten who I believe was the Editor(?). There are photos of the layout but no mention of the builder. The layout is built in a garage and has “representations”  of East Croydon, Clapham Junction and Reigate.

[D-A-T]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

That reminds me of the enlarged version of E.R. Carrroll's Victoria.I recall it had the Terminus (Victoria) then a very long convoluted run with a couple of holding sidings that eventually brought trains back to Victoria (though there was a branch)  

Looking at the full track plan the terminus is called Victoria, there are hidden sidings and other stations so I think this is the layout you mention. Especially as the builder is reluctant(?) to be named. 

Edited February 7 by D-A-T
Typo

[Nearholmer]

Building a goodly part of the Central Section your garage does seem a tiny bit beyond the purpose of Minories.

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, simon b said:

That was a good way to design a layout. Operate it with a few freinds, or leave the route set to act as a return loop for solo operation.

 

The above plan is a winner as it seems perfectly doable with off the shelf track, that's where something like Buckingham falls down.

 

If you did away with the complex scissors plus slips station throat and replaced it with a couple of curved crossovers, you can do Buckingham with RTR track. At an exhibition a while ago, I was shown photos of a layout based fairly closely on Buckingham where somebody had done just that. Such a layout would be far more complex and physically bigger than Minories but the operational potential is many times greater.

 

If you went for an earlier version, such as the double tracked version of Buckingham Mk. 2, it becomes even easier.

 

However, Buckingham was never really about RTR.  It was more about the freedom from being constrained by what was available commercially that you get by making things for yourself. When it was started in 1947 there was almost nothing you could buy that could be used, apart from rail, wheels and motors and a few castings for axle boxes and suchlike. Not relying on RTR is a philosophy that I have always liked and which I follow myself, so even when I build a layout that could be done with ready to lay points and track, I prefer to make my own, so it can be based on my chosen prototype. 

[simon b]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

If you did away with the complex scissors plus slips station throat and replaced it with a couple of curved crossovers, you can do Buckingham with RTR track. At an exhibition a while ago, I was shown photos of a layout based fairly closely on Buckingham where somebody had done just that. Such a layout would be far more complex and physically bigger than Minories but the operational potential is many times greater.

 

If you went for an earlier version, such as the double tracked version of Buckingham Mk. 2, it becomes even easier.

 

However, Buckingham was never really about RTR.  It was more about the freedom from being constrained by what was available commercially that you get by making things for yourself. When it was started in 1947 there was almost nothing you could buy that could be used, apart from rail, wheels and motors and a few castings for axle boxes and suchlike. Not relying on RTR is a philosophy that I have always liked and which I follow myself, so even when I build a layout that could be done with ready to lay points and track, I prefer to make my own, so it can be based on my chosen prototype. 

 

If you take out the complex trackwork it becomes close to this: 

 

 

Just to be clear I'm not knocking Buckingham, for what they had to work with back then it's a work of art. But it doesn't come across as an intensive worked commuter terminus which is what Minories set out to represent, with all the extras it has the operation moves to something else. 

[Flying Pig]

10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

A SAD UPDATE 

While trying to find out a bit more about Geoff Ashdown and Tower Pier just now I discovered very sadly that he died on the 24th March last year. I wasn't sure if it was the same Geoff Ashdown but he was an officer n the Salvation Army and talking about his retirement in 2020 he mentioned exhibiiting Tower Pier 11 times.  Geoff had invited me to one of his operating evenings near Southend but unfortunately circumstances and the Covid pandemic meant that I was never able to take him up on that.  

 

Very sorry to hear that. Geoff's interactions with visitors at shows were exemplary and Tower Pier was always an absorbing layout to watch.  Perhaps a note in the obituaries section would be in order?

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, simon b said:

 

If you take out the complex trackwork it becomes close to this: 

 

 

Just to be clear I'm not knocking Buckingham, for what they had to work with back then it's a work of art. But it doesn't come across as an intensive worked commuter terminus which is what Minories set out to represent, with all the extras it has the operation moves to something else. 

 

In my view, Buckingham is like a Minories plus plus! It has all the extra working but these have to be fitted in between a very intensive passenger service. The timetable runs from early morning through to around midnight and there are very definite "rush hours" at the appropriate times, where an operator really has to be on their top form to keep things flowing. Then once the rush of commuter trains has subsided, you go into spells of long distance trains, parcel, freight and other workings.

 

At "rush hour", there are trains that arrive, have a loco put on the back and are away again within 3 or 4 minutes, freeing the loco that brought the train in to be read to drop onto the back of the next one.

 

So when you operate the layout, you see a lot of the sort of operation that CJF envisaged for Minories. As CJF and Peter Denny were good friends, sharing ideas on operation shouldn't be a surprise and I have often wondered if Minories was designed as a cut down mini Buckingham, as there was a version of Buckingham featuring this type of operation before CJF produced Minories.

 

On Buckingham, the main local services are worked by a few sets of carriages. There is always a spare tank loco in a spur at the terminus ready to back on and take the train out. That is really the essence of the operation on Minories.

[RobinofLoxley]

21 hours ago, D-A-T said:

My “enlarged” Minories (when it gets built) will be based on ‘South for Moonshine’ which I think has more than hint of Borchester Market about it as well. 

I admire the drafting of the track plan part. Sometimes it isnt clear what kind of turnout is used in a particular location, adds to the fun of trying to draft it in Anyrail.

 

The appearance is very reminiscent of the original Minories plan; drwing style, paper, etc...

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I admire the drafting of the track plan part. Sometimes it isnt clear what kind of turnout is used in a particular location, adds to the fun of trying to draft it in Anyrail.

 

The appearance is very reminiscent of the original Minories plan; drwing style, paper, etc...

 

When you have a plan that flows nicely like that, it is very often because the points have been been handmade to suit the locations. I remember the article in the MRC annual very well. The layout was distinctly short of scenic work but I always thought it would have been an interesting one to operate, with a considerable length of run for a small space. What I cannot recall (and I don't have the annual to hand) is whether the points were proprietary or homemade.

[Nearholmer]

Now this has departed from Minories on a short(?) excursion, can I raise something that has always made me wonder about these more complex model termini?

 

Would you really want to operate one on your own? 
 

I seriously wonder, because unless the capacity is effectively wasted, by running very few trains, the intensity of operation of a steam age, particularly pre-grouping, terminus ramps-up significantly as the number of platforms increases. TBH, keeping the show on the road with just a two platform terminus at each end of the run on my former layout was enough to keep me entertained, by the time light engine movements, adding and detaching vans, and shunting the daily goods train were included. For a one person layout, while I’d have loved to expand to allow better goods siding provision, and some carriage stabling, I’m not sure I would want to go significantly more complex topologically.

 

 

Edited February 7 by Nearholmer