Theory of General Minories

[5BarVT]

30 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I'll give my award for "Worst Video Music" to that one.  Although it has plenty of competition.

 

Shame, since the layout is quite impressive.

Must be my taste in muzac, I quite liked it as background.

Layout is impressive!
Paul.

[Lacathedrale]

Very interesting thoughts. I used the through station plan as printed in a green 'BR Signalling' book - with a level crossing between the end of the platforms and the r/h crossover there was in excess of 15 levers used!

 

I like the idea of having a double-sided layout instead of a FY to imitate those pre-war 0-gauge system layouts like Paddington-Seagood as well as to take some of the serious po-faced solemnity of "railway modelling" out of the equation.

 

I think if i could get away with the plan in 00 I would do that, leaning towards Dublo and Triang and go straight for the heart!

 

EDIT: That video was good, shame it's letterboxed and zoomed in. I see he's leveraged some really very right curves in the hidden sections and he's spread the terminus into the middle of the board rather than my plan which left the middle mostly empty.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[KingEdwardII]

The video layout is continental, but the station arrangement put me in mind of Manchester Piccadilly. There, the vast majority of the platforms are terminus, but there are 2 through platforms on the south west side - although I believe that there is a desire to increase the number of through platforms to suit modern traffic patterns.

 

It's all well beyond "Minories" in scale though.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[5BarVT]

2 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

. . . Manchester Piccadilly . . . there is a desire to increase the number of through platforms . . .

4 through platforms at Piccadilly and Oxford Road are necessary to make Ordsall Chord work. Department for Roads removed that from the project hence the timetable fiascos that now leave it all a bit of a white elephant.

O.T. grumble over, back to more pleasant Minories discussions.

Paul.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

 

On 31/07/2021 at 22:54, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

It's not minories, but YouTube just threw this at me which is 2m x 1m n gauge with a terminus station and track through scenery and it made me think of your post https://youtu.be/-TaiQ5gRghM 

 

I thought I recognised the layout, though I’ve not seen this particular video before.  There’s a link at the end to www.track-plans.net where there’s a lot more information about the layout which may be of interest for railway modellers.  Of course, the key thing being demonstrated with this design is that the through station has been disguised as a terminus.  It’s great for running trains and reminds me of plans from a Faller track plan book I had when growing up (and which I wish I’d kept).

 

The clever design relies on locomotives and coaches (and some European coaches are very long) that can go round very tight curves when behind the scenes.  I suspect the layout doesn’t see the kind of in-out operation of a classic Minories, but I do like this layout for what it does offer.

 

Incidentally I’m sure I’ve seen other videos of this layout, which are perhaps more aimed at railway modellers (a couple of short ones are also on the website), so I suspect this particular one was put together with more of an emphasis on entertaining a wider audience - hence the choice of music and approach to editing.  It’s got us talking, so it worked!
 

Thanks to @Satan's Goldfish for sharing - nice to see it again.

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

 

.  I suspect the layout doesn’t see the kind of in-out operation of a classic Minories, but I do like this layout for what it does offer.

 

 

 

No reason why some of the roads in the terminus part should not be used to reverse trains. Indeed it would seem likely to me.

 

One could create a similar set-up in 00 in about 14' x 6' but with a central operating well.

[Nearholmer]

To me, that layout highlights something that I’ve noticed about continental, particularly German, railway modelling: less of a tendency to seek a hard distinction between ‘model railway’ and ‘train set’ than is the case in Britain, so layout designs that are much more like 1930s 0 gauge, or 1950/60s 00 by CJF, which are more or less the same thing.
 

Of course, there are layouts like this in Britain, and super hi-fi ones in Germany, but it’s broad trends I’m talking about

[Satan's Goldfish]

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

To me, that layout highlights something that I’ve noticed about continental, particularly German, railway modelling: less of a tendency to seek a hard distinction between ‘model railway’ and ‘train set’ than is the case in Britain, so layout designs that are much more like 1930s 0 gauge, or 1950/60s 00 by CJF, which are more or less the same thing.
 

Of course, there are layouts like this in Britain, and super hi-fi ones in Germany, but it’s broad trends I’m talking about

 

Interesting point. I find with the ideas that rattle through my head if it's to be UK outline then i try to design realism in. If it's a continental design then a rabbit warren style or many lines in an unprototypical situation seems perfectly acceptable.

[Zomboid]

It seems that the German approach is (generally) about having loads of scope for things moving, whilst the typically British style is presently to make things look as realistic as possible.

 

The American way seems to be different again, and more focused on getting as much freight/ switching operation in as possible. Which mirrors the smaller and of their real railways - even in a basement empire you'll struggle to run a mile long double stack with 12 locos...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

To me, that layout highlights something that I’ve noticed about continental, particularly German, railway modelling: less of a tendency to seek a hard distinction between ‘model railway’ and ‘train set’ than is the case in Britain, so layout designs that are much more like 1930s 0 gauge, or 1950/60s 00 by CJF, which are more or less the same thing.
 

Of course, there are layouts like this in Britain, and super hi-fi ones in Germany, but it’s broad trends I’m talking about

I think for me it is that sense of a large ‘middle ground’ in continental railway modelling that appeals.

[Lacathedrale]

Investigating a 1950's style Minories with Dublo 3-rail seem surprisingly compact:

 

 

The platform roads are only around 3' long each - way under-sized for realistic operation, but channelling this advert, maybe suitable?

 

 

I see this layout distilled down to the old 'varnished wood and polished brass' style with brightly coloured tinplate- interest would be almost entirely on signalling and train movements, to simulate a real railway's operation, rather than the visual aspects.

[Nearholmer]

You’ve seen this, I guess. HD 2-rail. 

 

[KingEdwardII]

39 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

channelling this advert

Ooh, that takes me back.  My first layout (aged 6) had that 8F 2-8-0 set. I still have all the components, though now long out of use. I also had a Deltic and a set of Pullman coaches, so that the passenger side of things was not neglected...

 

Yours,  Mike.

[john new]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

Investigating a 1950's style Minories with Dublo 3-rail seem surprisingly compact:

 

 

The platform roads are only around 3' long each - way under-sized for realistic operation, but channelling this advert, maybe suitable?

 

 

I see this layout distilled down to the old 'varnished wood and polished brass' style with brightly coloured tinplate- interest would be almost entirely on signalling and train movements, to simulate a real railway's operation, rather than the visual aspects.

 

I am of an age where that approach, so common in my youth, still seems the best way to do it. There are an awful lot of scenic train set ovals on the circuit currently and being lauded in the press. Heaton Lodge and the Chester Cathedral layout as just two, however good the scenery is they must be boring to operate.

 

[t-b-g]

10 minutes ago, john new said:

 

I am of an age where that approach, so common in my youth, still seems the best way to do it. There are an awful lot of scenic train set ovals on the circuit currently and being lauded in the press. Heaton Lodge and the Chester Cathedral layout as just two, however good the scenery is they must be boring to operate.

 

 

I separate those who have model railways into those who like to run trains and those who like to operate a layout. I think the people on this thread are very likely in the latter category. I certainly am.

 

Heaton Lodge etc. are very much about running trains. Layouts like Minories are about operating.

 

I have been a guest operator on a couple of exhibition layouts of the "running train" variety, including some real "big name" examples. They bored me silly after 15 minutes. I enjoy operating a simple terminus like a Minories or even a branch station like Leighton Buzzard far more.

[Lacathedrale]

Nearholmer, I have indeed seen that one. I think I'd probably backdate even further with 3-rail track, etc.  - I guess the problem is now that Dublo has crossed the rainbow bridge into 'very collectable' it's not really the straight-forward affair it might have been 20 years ago.

 

I think I'd be tempted go with the original Minories in TT gauge if there were just a few more locomotives out there - there just doesn't seem enough for one each of a mainline, shunter and suburban passenger loco for any one company...

[Nearholmer]

54 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

guess the problem is now that Dublo has crossed the rainbow bridge into 'very collectable' 

I’m not so sure about that, there seems to be plenty about, and my observation is that it is only genuinely super-rare variations, and pre-war stuff, that is ‘collector priced’. Even things in very acceptable condition don’t seem too bad. I made a brief foray into HD 2-rail just pre-Covid, and I found that even mint, boxed Wrenn (instead of the two diesels that HD fouled-up in 2-rail), which has a reputation for costing silly money, was sensible, provided one accepts the common fleet numbers.

 

My nascent HD stash is probably not now going to get used - I realised that I have too many things on the go already. Unless, maybe, I built a Minories …….

 

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not so sure about that, there seems to be plenty about, and my observation is that it is only genuinely super-rare variations, and pre-war stuff, that is ‘collector priced’. Even things in very acceptable condition don’t seem too bad. I made a brief foray into HD 2-rail just pre-Covid, and I found that even mint, boxed Wrenn (instead of the two diesels that HD fouled-up in 2-rail), which has a reputation for costing silly money, was sensible, provided one accepts the common fleet numbers.

 

My nascent HD stash is probably not now going to get used - I realised that I have too many things on the go already. Unless, maybe, I built a Minories …….

 

 

I would agree. I have a couple of friends who are big Hornby Dublo collectors as a side line to their modelling. Both have noticed that the pricing of most items has taken a big hit as more collectors fall off their perches and are not being replaced by new collectors.

 

Collections come up for sale and the people wanting them are just not there in enough numbers now to make them worth a lot unless they are rare items.

[Zomboid]

A quick look on eBay suggests that there's loads of HD locomotives at least at prices where you wouldn't be afraid to run them. How well they might run is another matter, but you could make quite the useable minories layout with eBay sourced HD traction and stuff like superquick buildings for eminently sensible money.

 

[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

stuff like superquick buildings for eminently sensible money.

 

A few more inches of length to fit in the Superquick terminus building at the platform ends would be nice.  Yes, it can be arranged alongside the tracks but that doesn't allow the vestigial roof to do its job of making the station look important.  Even part-relief might work.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

some real "big name" examples. They bored me silly after 15 minutes.

Stoke Summit?

[Nearholmer]

I dont know about operating it, but watching it held my attention for, oooooh, three minutes, maybe.

 

A very accurate and fine piece of modelling, but not of something that is "up my street", whereas the crowd of people along the barrier was held static by it. Having elbowed my way to the front, knocking several willowy individuals over with my rucksack, I then had to elbow my way back out again, sending several more reeling.

[Pacific231G]

On 02/08/2021 at 09:34, Nearholmer said:

To me, that layout highlights something that I’ve noticed about continental, particularly German, railway modelling: less of a tendency to seek a hard distinction between ‘model railway’ and ‘train set’ than is the case in Britain, so layout designs that are much more like 1930s 0 gauge, or 1950/60s 00 by CJF, which are more or less the same thing.
 

Of course, there are layouts like this in Britain, and super hi-fi ones in Germany, but it’s broad trends I’m talking about

Hmm. I think you may be equating "Continental" with German. Modellers in the Bundesrepublik do seem to like layouts with a lot of trains running at once but French modellers, for example, seem to go far more with the idea of trains running through beautifully modelled scenery or with a finely modelled townscape. The typical French club layout seems to consist of a double track "boucle" with a well modelled through station, often a real one,  and plenty of storage sidings hidden behind with usually quite a lot of scenic development. Operation, as opposed to simply running trains, is fairly rare  but of growing interest. French modellers do seem very willing to take inspiration from their British counterparts and the terminus- coulisse (terminus-fiddle yard) layout though still relatively rare, has started to appear. I've only come across a couple of French layouts run to a schedule and one of those was an industrial shunting layout but, in truth, very few British layouts are really operated to a timetable. 

 

As a general rule of thumb, my impression has long been that American layout builders seek to build whole sections of railroad ideally with a long sinuous run over which an operator will act as train crew for "their" train, switching it at several depots and sidings ; British modellers tend to to build and operate single stations with the rest of the railway off-stage. The operator's role is more that of signalman  and the few layouts with multiple stations tend to have an operator responsible for each; French modellers tend to go for beautifully modelled sections of scenery with an occasional train running through; German modellers seem to prefer layouts with a number of circuits on which multiple trains can circulate to give an overall sense of busyness, sometimes a sort of mini-Miniatur Wunderland.

There are of course plenty of exceptions to these archetypical national tendencies and quite a lot of cross-fertilisation. NG modelling is a whole different kettle of fish and, whereas 4mm scale is rarely used outside Britain, Australia and NZ, there are a surprising number of 009 layouts built by French modellers.   

Edited August 10, 2021 by Pacific231G

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I dont know about operating it, but watching it held my attention for, oooooh, three minutes, maybe.

 

A very accurate and fine piece of modelling, but not of something that is "up my street", whereas the crowd of people along the barrier was held static by it. Having elbowed my way to the front, knocking several willowy individuals over with my rucksack, I then had to elbow my way back out again, sending several more reeling.

I had the pleasure of being invited by Tony @Tony Wrightto operate Stoke Summit many years ago at an exhibition. I enjoyed trying to simulate realistic speeds, operation of the signals and the loops, etc. but that was about it as far as "operating" as described by the other Tony @t-b-g is concerned.

[Lacathedrale]

I think I like the IDEA of operating the railway. Certainly this is something that earlier layout builders expected from their creations - maybe because they were closer to the prototype, typically had the space (dedicating the spare billiards room) - but I am drawn back again and again to the author of the Paddington-Seagood line's construction, paraphrasing "A shorter train doing more, would be preferable to a longer train doing less" i.e. he would prefer to have a three or five coach passenger train and be able to fit in within reason an extra station or junction - as opposed to a 10-coach train which would circambulate interminably on a simpler layout. This is VERY DIFFERENT to the approach we've seen in layouts like Copenhagen Fields, Stoke Summit, Heaton Lodge, Chee Tor, etc.

 

I'm sure this is related to the fact that the vast majority of modellers that actually saw steam traction in the flesh would have been unable to meaningfully participate in the operation, but would no doubt have been amazed as a Duchess or A1 roared through a station, or glimpsed from the back of a garden. The modellers of the pre-boom era (i.e. when trainspotting was cool) would have likely been intimiately familiar with the workings of the railway, as well as its looks - and sought to emulate that.

 

We see a single axis of visual realism (including track formations) with less and more realistic as the two opposing points - but modellers of that era would have seen the other axis, that of operational realism as equally relevant - and I believe it would have factored into their design choices.

 

Long story short - that's my excuse if I build a HD Minories and run four shorty coaches as my intercity express.