tender Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I have a Tenshudo WB35 power bogie that I' like to convert to DCC. As supplied the motor is directly connected to wheel pickups internally. There are also two solder tabs on the side of the bogie that seem to be connected to either the motor or the pickups. Obviously the feed from the pickups needs to be split from the motor but there doesn't seem to be any way of doing this without stripping the unit down. Has anybody already gone through this process that can advise? Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Converting a Tenshodo SPUD is quite easy. Just take it apart, it will go back together without any problems. Make sure you don't lose the screw securing the base plate. It is very small and is only too easy to drop and spend hours looking for it. Do not unscrew the covers on the carbon brushes, the two brass hexagons. They contain a spring and the carbon brush and can be fiddly to reassemble. John Polley's Metromodels web site http://www.metromodels.net/ tells you how to do it in his Modelling Tips and Tricks section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 My method is slightly tweaked version of http://www.metromodels.net/tenshodo_spud_dcc_conversion_a.jpg If you are hiding the SPUD inside frames etc then when dismantled the contact strip the motor brushes are fed from the pickups are bent upwards on the outside rather than inside. These make good solder points for the red & black feeds. Then solder the orange & grey onto the tabs sticking out the top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Many thanks for the link and tips for the conversion. Hoping to put this unit in my 5BEL as the Hornby motor doesn't respond well at slow speed to DCC conversion having tried 4 different decoders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnysa Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 My method is slightly tweaked version of http://www.metromode...onversion_a.jpg If you are hiding the SPUD inside frames etc then when dismantled the contact strip the motor brushes are fed from the pickups are bent upwards on the outside rather than inside. These make good solder points for the red & black feeds. Then solder the orange & grey onto the tabs sticking out the top. This is exactly how I have been doing it for yrs.. Works very well.. Cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Many thanks for the link and tips for the conversion. Hoping to put this unit in my 5BEL as the Hornby motor doesn't respond well at slow speed to DCC conversion having tried 4 different decoders. Do you mean that you want to replace the Hornby motor? You may find that the SPUD hasn't got the pulling power. When I motorise an EFE 4 car set I use 2 SPUDS, and certainly that is what most other people do for a 4 car set even with improved wheel bearings.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Do you mean that you want to replace the Hornby motor? You may find that the SPUD hasn't got the pulling power. When I motorise an EFE 4 car set I use 2 SPUDS, and certainly that is what most other people do for a 4 car set even with improved wheel bearings.. I second this and Tenshodos are a nightmare with DCC if you fit 2 to power a train you will have major issues - my advice don't do this. I have 4 Tenshodos removed from my 2 4 car EFE tube trains - one of my most expensive modelling mistakes! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Thanks for the warning on the pulling power, if necessary I'll explore adding another spud at the trailing end as well. Alternatively, I have a replica railways powered motor chassis ( two motors driving both bogies) but I think that will take a bit more work to adapt. XF - what's the problem with running Tenshudo with DCC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thanks for the warning on the pulling power, if necessary I'll explore adding another spud at the trailing end as well. Alternatively, I have a replica railways powered motor chassis ( two motors driving both bogies) but I think that will take a bit more work to adapt. XF - what's the problem with running Tenshudo with DCC? I fitting a chip and Tenshodo Motor Bogie to both driving cars of a 1938 tube stock. It proved very difficult to set up any of the speed related CV's and I was not very happy with the control of the train. Things got even worse when a train was stooped and then restarted as either one or both power bogies would not work or would operate in the opposite direction to each other! This occurred both of my 4 car 1938 tube sets - i tried consisting, used both PowewrCab and Prodigy DCC systems and never solved the issue. I replaced all 4 motors with Black Beetles motor bogies and have no issues with these and use these in most of my units now. I still have a couple of single car units with single chip and Tensohodo fitted they work however slow speed control is difficult - changing CV's has minimal effect. I highly recommend the Replica chasissI had one pulling 14 coaches last week on our club test track with no issues, very smooth and good speed control XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Whenever you use multiple powered bogies - on dc, ac, or dcc, its alway important to SHARE the power pickup between them, so that they operate in cooperative parallel at all times, with the benefit of extra wheels picking up, and not as a bucking bronco competative arrangement .... an EFE tube train is light enough without adding pickup problems caused by fighting motors! DCC requires more consistant pickup than analogue because of its serial command structure - which takes time to send a complete command, and this must be uninterrupted or it has to wait until the next time it is transmitted: consider a new speed command, accelerating from rest - as you rotate the control knob... if only one motor/decoder understood the message, only it would change speed...causing a set of wheels to lift perhaps ... then the other motor/decoder catches up ....... A single decoder of sufficient rating to drive the motor bogies in parallel is the best way of matching 4 identical Tenshodo power bogies. [Or consider prototype practice, and wire 2 in series for a reduced speed range) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Many thanks for the link and tips for the conversion. Hoping to put this unit in my 5BEL as the Hornby motor doesn't respond well at slow speed to DCC conversion having tried 4 different decoders. A Black Beetle would be more reliable! Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 I highly recommend the Replica chasissI had one pulling 14 coaches last week on our club test track with no issues, very smooth and good speed control XF If there are problems with multiple Tenshudo's rather than spend money on a second unit i might invest in a second centre car for the 5BEL and cannibalise it to fit the Replica Railways power chassis and remove the Hornby motor from the power car. There's not so much under carriage detail on the centre car so should be easier to transfer to the Replica chassis. Not sure about the interior seating/table lamps though due to the thickness of the chassis. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 A Black Beetle would be more reliable! Charlie If i went for a Black Beetle would i still need two for a five car unit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 If i went for a Black Beetle would i still need two for a five car unit? Yes you would need 2 - I use one Black Beetle in my 3 car Class 501's and it works fine but is a happy limit IMO. Black Beetles are a simpler solution than the Replica Chassis and Mr Petty is a well renowned purveyor of these little creatures! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Whenever you use multiple powered bogies - on dc, ac, or dcc, its alway important to SHARE the power pickup between them, so that they operate in cooperative parallel at all times, with the benefit of extra wheels picking up, and not as a bucking bronco competative arrangement .... an EFE tube train is light enough without adding pickup problems caused by fighting motors! DCC requires more consistant pickup than analogue because of its serial command structure - which takes time to send a complete command, and this must be uninterrupted or it has to wait until the next time it is transmitted: consider a new speed command, accelerating from rest - as you rotate the control knob... if only one motor/decoder understood the message, only it would change speed...causing a set of wheels to lift perhaps ... then the other motor/decoder catches up ....... A single decoder of sufficient rating to drive the motor bogies in parallel is the best way of matching 4 identical Tenshodo power bogies. [Or consider prototype practice, and wire 2 in series for a reduced speed range) The issues is with the Tenshodos - Both of my EFE;1938 sets had 2 power cars with each with 8 wheel pickups- no problem with the Black Beetles which replaced them - apart from the hole in my pocket! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 The issues is with the Tenshodos - Both of my EFE;1938 sets had 2 power cars with each with 8 wheel pickups- no problem with the Black Beetles which replaced them - apart from the hole in my pocket! XF Are you using two decoders in a consist or wiring the motors in parallel (or series) from a single decoder? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Are you using two decoders in a consist or wiring the motors in parallel (or series) from a single decoder? There is a decoder and motor fitted to both driving cars I tried consist and using the same address as the units never change their configuration. Consisting was worse than using the same address for both decoders andI spent hours on this issue and ended up very peed! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnysa Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I can not understand your problems with Tenshudo spuds (power bogies) I have 2 double (2 cars in each) sets of railcars powered with Tenshudo and seperate decoder for each with no problems what so ever. In fact one set has Loksound 3.5 in one car and TCS non sound in the other car. The 2 are consisted each with its individual number. IE not consisted with same number. All works very well. DCC system is Lenz. Cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hi Ian, That's encouraging news, I'll try the Tenshudo with a decoder (TCS) before making any more decisions on which way to proceed. As an aside, I'm interested in how you get the loksound to run with a non-sound decoder in a consist. All my sound decoders have some form of start-up (sound) delay before moving off, if I consist these with a non-sound decoder unit the sound unit gets dragged along while it goes through it's start-up procedure. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Black beetles run very nicely together. Give each of them a Zimo MX620 and you will not go wrong. Joining the pickups should ensure that they start together. Not a cheap solution by any means, but it will make for a very good runner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I can not understand your problems with Tenshudo spuds (power bogies) I have 2 double (2 cars in each) sets of railcars powered with Tenshudo and seperate decoder for each with no problems what so ever. In fact one set has Loksound 3.5 in one car and TCS non sound in the other car. The 2 are consisted each with its individual number. IE not consisted with same number. All works very well. DCC system is Lenz. Cheers Ian Hi Ian - I think this problem may only occur when using the smallest Tenshodo bogies, as I for the 1938 stock. It could be due to the small gears and small armature causing back EMF issues. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnysa Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Hi Ian - I think this problem may only occur when using the smallest Tenshodo bogies, as I for the 1938 stock. It could be due to the small gears and small armature causing back EMF issues. XF I have used the small Tenshudo bogies with no problems using Loksound, Lokpilot, TCS, DCCconcepts decoders. Cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnysa Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Hi Ian, As an aside, I'm interested in how you get the loksound to run with a non-sound decoder in a consist. All my sound decoders have some form of start-up (sound) delay before moving off, if I consist these with a non-sound decoder unit the sound unit gets dragged along while it goes through it's start-up procedure. Ray. Ray & others, The above involves doing a full speed curve in each loco etc, CVs 67 thru 94. and speed matching the locos , concerned. Set the first 1 or 2 speed steps IE Cv 67 & 68 to zero some times even the third step CV69. This gives the Loksound a chance to catch up. Open the thottle slowly untill the loksound loco starts to move then throttle can be advanced further. I realize some can not be bothered doing this which is up to them but this is the beauty of DCC. There is very little that can not be done with a little time and effort. Lokpilot decoders can be adjusted to compensate for the lag in Loksound decoders. I don't normally use lokpilot ( to expensive) when TCS or DCCconcepts decoders are aprox 1/2 the price and with a little time and effort can be just as good. Cheers Ian cheers Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Ray & others, The above involves doing a full speed curve in each loco etc, CVs 67 thru 94. and speed matching the locos , concerned. Set the first 1 or 2 speed steps IE Cv 67 & 68 to zero some times even the third step CV69. This gives the Loksound a chance to catch up. Open the thottle slowly untill the loksound loco starts to move then throttle can be advanced further. I realize some can not be bothered doing this which is up to them but this is the beauty of DCC. There is very little that can not be done with a little time and effort. Lokpilot decoders can be adjusted to compensate for the lag in Loksound decoders. I don't normally use lokpilot ( to expensive) when TCS or DCCconcepts decoders are aprox 1/2 the price and with a little time and effort can be just as good. Cheers Ian cheers Ian Thanks Ian It's not a case of cannot be bothered, but rather did not know! I was using Lenz Silver decoders when I had this issue XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Ray & others, The above involves doing a full speed curve in each loco etc, CVs 67 thru 94. and speed matching the locos , concerned. Set the first 1 or 2 speed steps IE Cv 67 & 68 to zero some times even the third step CV69. This gives the Loksound a chance to catch up. Open the thottle slowly untill the loksound loco starts to move then throttle can be advanced further. I realize some can not be bothered doing this which is up to them but this is the beauty of DCC. There is very little that can not be done with a little time and effort. Lokpilot decoders can be adjusted to compensate for the lag in Loksound decoders. I don't normally use lokpilot ( to expensive) when TCS or DCCconcepts decoders are aprox 1/2 the price and with a little time and effort can be just as good. Cheers Ian That's brilliant, why didn't I think of that. I'd given up on trying to consist anything with a sound chip but will now have another go with renewed vigour. Just shows the value of RMWeb Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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