Bachmann Class 25 (32-401DS)

[bankerboy]

I have recently bought a secondhand 32-401DS with no user guides. Can any-one tell me what function keys are in use and what they do? Some-one has told me that I need to 'notch up', but being a steam man I do not know what this is all about. I sent a query to Bachmann weeks ago, but the Wells Fargo rider must have been ambushed on the way back!

 

Thanks

 

Howard from Solihull

[HLT 0109]

Hello Howard - try these:

 

Engine Start F1

Lighting - directional F0

Lighting - cab F8

Horn - single F2

Horn - double F3

Buffer F9

Coupling F10

Shunting mode F7

Fan F4

Notch up F5

Notch down F6

 

Notch up is a means of revving up the engine sound. Press F5 once and it will latch on; press it again and it will either switch the function on or it will toggle through a sequence (or you may have to press F6) - I do not use notching so I am not sure how it works on that loco. If you go to Bachmann's website you will find downloads of their service sheets and you may find the sheet that is included with a new loco. If not, send me a personal message and I will scan mine for you.

 

Harold.

[st1ngr4y]

Hello Harold & Howard,

I recently bought a new Bachmann Class 25 32-330DS, and according to the sheet which accompanied the loco, most of the functions are as described by Harold. The exceptions are:

F4 Airbrake

F8 Aux 1 (not a connected feature on this loco)

F9 Guard's whistle

F11 Volume control (scrolls through 4 settings)

I am assuming, of course, that the internal workings of 32-330DS and Howard's 32-401DS are the same.....

 

However, I have had no success in getting F5, F6 and F11 to work (I use a Hornby Elite and Railmaster) - these functions seem to have no effect on the sound. Someone suggested looking at the CV's using DecoderPro, but it doesn't even recognise the manufaturer/model of the decoder. Any thoughts?

 

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Hello Harold & Howard,

I recently bought a new Bachmann Class 25 32-330DS, and according to the sheet which accompanied the loco, most of the functions are as described by Harold. The exceptions are:

F4 Airbrake

F8 Aux 1 (not a connected feature on this loco)

F9 Guard's whistle

F11 Volume control (scrolls through 4 settings)

I am assuming, of course, that the internal workings of 32-330DS and Howard's 32-401DS are the same.....

 

However, I have had no success in getting F5, F6 and F11 to work (I use a Hornby Elite and Railmaster) - these functions seem to have no effect on the sound. Someone suggested looking at the CV's using DecoderPro, but it doesn't even recognise the manufaturer/model of the decoder. Any thoughts?

 

 

It is not unknown for a manufacturer to issue a generic sound sheet for all locos, and then say "Oh, that one is a bit different...".

If the "F11" volume control is working, you need to turn F11 on and off again very rapidly for it to change volume level.

 

 

DecoderPro should identify the decoder as made by ESU. That's as far as DecoderPro can get because ESU don't provide any more clues in CV's which can be read to narrow it down to a specific decoder, so from there on, its down to the user to select the appropriate decoder.

 

Depending on the age of the model, a factory fitted sound loco from Bachmann UK will have either a LokSound version3.5 or a LokSound version4. If you don't know which, one way to tell is to adjust the volume (CV63). With the LokSound Version3.5, a volume of 63 will be the loudest possible. Whereas with the Version 4, the volume range goes from 0 to 192, so a volume of 63 will be fairly quiet compared to default.

 

If its a Version3.5, then the DecoderPro user interface allows fairly straightforward setting of most features. It won't tell you which sounds are allocated to which slot, but you can experiment with them.

With a Version4, then DecoderPro is OK as far as it goes, but the V4 is the most complicated decoder I've ever met, with well in excess of 1000 CV values to adjust (and many are inter-related, so change one thing and lots of others change what they do). Getting all of that lot to work well within DecoderPro is taxing everyone within the JMRI development community that I've ever discussed this with. It may well be necessary to just stop at a "good enough for most people" level, not much more than at present, rather than attempting to cover everything.

 

 

- Nigel

[st1ngr4y]

Nigel,

Many thanks for this extremely useful information. I've finally managed to get DecoderPro to recognise the Decoder - it's Loksound v4.0. So i'm in DecoderPro and I've asked it to read from the Decoder. I've gone to the Function Map tab in the Programmer and I have found function 11 down the left hand side. Looking along that row, the only box ticked is under a column headed 24 SS8. Also, function 5 has a tick in column 22 SS6, and function 6 has ticks in the two columns 9 ABV and 10 Shunt. Does this mean anything to you? Also, I tried pressing F11 twice in rapid succession on my Hornby Elite, but it didn't seem to have any effect.

 

Ray

[bankerboy]

Based on the updated details I have managed to get all of the functions to work both using DecoderPro3 through a MERG CANCMD, and a Roco Multimaus with the exception of F11, although I must admit that when 'playing about' earlier to try and see what sounds were produced, there was sometimes some inconsistancy. Ray, don't forget that all the sounds are produced from 'sound bites' so when pressing F5 and F6 the chip has to step through several of these as it goes up or down, and F6 takes longer to come down. Pressing F11 just turns the engine off, and sounds very realistic, but not what was defined on the datasheet.

 

When DecoderPro3 initially just gave a list of possible ESU chips, I looked inside the loco but nothing obviously said Loksound 4, but I assumed it was this.

 

Howard

[Nigelcliffe]

Nigel,

Many thanks for this extremely useful information. I've finally managed to get DecoderPro to recognise the Decoder - it's Loksound v4.0. So i'm in DecoderPro and I've asked it to read from the Decoder. I've gone to the Function Map tab in the Programmer and I have found function 11 down the left hand side. Looking along that row, the only box ticked is under a column headed 24 SS8. Also, function 5 has a tick in column 22 SS6, and function 6 has ticks in the two columns 9 ABV and 10 Shunt. Does this mean anything to you? Also, I tried pressing F11 twice in rapid succession on my Hornby Elite, but it didn't seem to have any effect.

 

SS = Sound Slot, there are numerous sound slots in V4 decoders. Without knowing the structure of the sound project (private to the person who wrote it) its impossible to predict which sound is in which slot, though there are often commonalities between projects. So SS6 = SoundSlot6

 

ABV, I can't remember, but its in the manuals, think it turns off the acceleration and deceleration (CV3/CV4). Shunt = probably half--speed.

 

 

The mapping of features to function keys shown in JMRI works, but it assumes the decoder project was setup "normally" - I'd be surprised if a standard Bachmann project wasn't set up normally. But the underlying flexibility in the decoder design means just about anything is possible and configurable by end-user CV changes (eg. "if travelling backwards, and FnKey1 is pressed and FnKey9 is not pressed then play sound slot 10, wait ten seconds and then turn on the headlamps" is a perfectly legal option !!). I've a set of notes, 20-odd pages long, written last Easter which documents what I've learned, if wanted PM me and I'll find them. Most of what I found is now in the ESU manual for the V4, at the time it wasn't documented, just implied behaviour in the LokProgrammer software.

 

The volume control stuff might not work on all V4's. It was reliable on the V3.5. Similarly, any suggestion of manual notching depends on the age of the V4 project, it took a long time for ESU to put manual notching back into the V4's capabilities.

 

 

- Nigel

[st1ngr4y]

Nigel,

I'm new this year to DCC so please be patient with me (lol). If I understand you correctly, ESU manufacture v4 of their Loksound Decoder, then Bachmann come along and set various CV's as a project for one of their locomotives, and this is the state of the decoder when it is sold on-board a Bachmann loco? Do the Open University have a degree course for this??

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Nigel,

I'm new this year to DCC so please be patient with me (lol). If I understand you correctly, ESU manufacture v4 of their Loksound Decoder, then Bachmann come along and set various CV's as a project for one of their locomotives, and this is the state of the decoder when it is sold on-board a Bachmann loco? Do the Open University have a degree course for this??

Ray

 

Ray,

Broadly yes, that's how it works, though you have to add the specific loco sounds as well.

 

ESU make the LokSound decoders.

Bachmann then load sounds on to the decoder including some rules about how sounds relate to each other, and set various CV values. This is done with the LokProgrammer software tools. ( Its quite conceivable that Bachmann pay someone else to do this sound development ).

The end user can then change how the loco behaves and which sounds play in response to user actions by CV values. The end user cannot alter the sounds stored in the decoder (except by replacing all the sounds with new ones using the LokProgrammer)

 

Hornby are the same.

 

 

 

No OU course as far as I know. One of my jobs is at the OU, I have a pile of marking to do this week

 

- Nigel

[cassey jones]

All the sound set ups for Bachmann are done by SWD, I believe.

[st1ngr4y]

Nigel,

I'm not too bothered about the notching capabilities, although it would be nice to have. I am much more interested in the ability to reduce / increase the volume. My layout is basically a double track oval with hidden sidings at one end, accessed by tunnel portals at each side. Down one side, there is a main line station with 6 platforms. The train operations are controlled by programs in Hornby Railmaster via a Hornby Elite. The Class 25 is my first loco with sound, and it would have been nice to have the sound volume reduce to zero as the train disappears into the hidden sidings tunnel, and then to increase as it emerges from the other side. This is the sort of thing I would like to do with any other sound locos I acquire in the future.

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Ray,

There is a fader within the V4. Its fairly long winded (unlike Zimo which has this and is quite simple to setup !).

 

At the simplest level, just turning the sound off whilst the loco is moving will achieve zero sound. As the loco is moving, it doesn't go through its startup or shutdown processes.

 

 

It is possible to fade the sound to a lower level, rather than to off, or to have a specific key which achieves "mute" (by setting the faded level to zero).

Its not in the current JMRI file for the LokSound, though could possibly be added.

If you want this, tell me which function key you want it allocating to and I'll try to work out a possible set of manual CV's. But, be warned, it is complicated to set manually, involving the use of the "index" CV's. So at least two CV's to set anything, I'm expecting this to be at least half a dozen CV changes.

 

 

- Nigel

[st1ngr4y]

Hello Nigel,

It is very kind of you to offer to do this, but before you do, just a couple of things:-

Firstly, I just received this reply from Bachmann:

"

 

The loco has the version 4 lok sound decoder as produced by ESU. Function 5 ‘notch up’ should work when the loco is on notch 1 or above on the controller and will remain operational until F5 is cancelled. At which point the reving effect will die down. F6 and F11 do not actually operate on this decoder, the volume can be altered via CV settings in accordance with the instructions. We apologise for any inconvenience.

"

 

Secondly, can the Hornby Elite cope with index CVs? I noticed a couple of error messages from DecoderPro, which suggested there might be a problem in this area. I can't remember the exact wording of the messages but it appeared that even though I was trying to read the existing CVs, DecoderPro was having difficulty writing CV 75, and the acronyms SI and PI were mentioned in this context, whatever they might be.

 

If it is possible to raise and lower the volume, would two function keys be needed, one to raise and another to lower the volume? If so, how about 11 & 12?

 

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Ray

 

Indexed CV's might be causing a problem to the Elite when using JMRI. This is because the Elite's computer interface is has problems, the Elite has a habit of dropping some commands if sent too quickly, though doesn't warn anyone that this is about to happen. If you want to raise the fault on the JMRI-User's forum on Yahoo, then possibly one of the development team will change the time-outs applied to the Elite code to try to fix it, but the correct value is a guesswork compromise. I'm somewhat fed up of testing code for Elite's (I don't have one, but a friend does) so not really inclined to undertake reporting and testing interim fixes with the developer. Most other systems don't have these problems.

 

 

 

I don't have a V4 on the bench at present to check all this, so its from the manuals and my notes on how it works. Also, the features in V4's have changed over the years as more elements have been added by ESU. So what is present in a given decoder depends on when its firmware and the sound project was written to the decoder. Any V4 can be updated to "current", but its something only a sound developer would do.

 

 

 

Apart from turning the sound on/off, there are two main ways to cause the sound to fade out or alter its level.

 

One is "volume control". This works by pressing the key, then releasing, the sound alters to a different level. Press and release again and it changes again. Repeat enough times and it comes back to full loudness. But, I think this tends to over-ride the default volume level set in CV63, so may result in a volume you don't want.

 

The alternative is the Fader key, which is a single on/off, it sets the sound to a lower (or higher) overall value when the key is on, and the sound returns to normal when the key is off.

 

 

You should be able to use the "Single CV Programmer" within JMRI to make the settings below, its going to be less key prodding than using the Elite's keypad to read and write the relevant changes. Set the option in the Single CV Programmer to "direct". If the Elite doesn't answer sensibly at the first CV above CV255, then the Elite can't make these changes - some systems can't do CV's above 255. There are ways around, but its another layer of complexity which I suspect will be too much to contemplate.

Go slowly with any changes, you should be able to read any value which has been written to check that it is correct.

 

 

If F11 isn't currently doing anything, then should be able to use that.

 

By default (and its a fair guess that Bachmann are using defaults), F11 is in the 17th block of function outputs (page 58 of my downloaded LokSound manual shows standard mapping of V4 and V4 micro decoders), which in turn is controlled by

Index CV31=16 and CV32=3, and then CV's 257 to 272 (mapping line 17 on page 52)

 

You can confirm this by writing CV31=16, CV32=3 to set the indexing, then read CV260, I would expect a value of 4, which would indicate F11 allocated to this block.

(Control CV D, page 53 )

 

Then, to attach the "sound fader" behaviour to the same mapping line as the F11 key; This is in "Control N", which is CV269 for mapping line 17. The Fader takes a value of 8, so write CV269=8 (page 56).

As an alternative to the "sound fader", its possible to have the "volume control" key allocated. Again "Control N", in CV269, this time a value of 64. So, to use the "Volume control", set CV269=64 (again page 56)

 

Then clear the Index CV's so that CV indexing is back to normal, write CV31=16, CV32=0 (this isn't essential, but I think its good practise to put things back to how they were at the start !).

 

 

Finally, if you went with the "Fader" set the value for the amount of fade, this is in CV133, and takes a value from 0 to 127 for sounds quieter than the default level, with 0 being silent, 128 is "no difference in level". Try CV133=40 and see whether its the right level of volume for you (page 73).

 

 

 

- Nigel

[HLT 0109]

it would have been nice to have the sound volume reduce to zero as the train disappears into the hidden sidings tunnel, and then to increase as it emerges from the other side. This is the sort of thing I would like to do with any other sound locos I acquire in the future.

Ray

Ray,

 

At the risk of upsetting Nigel, may I suggest a different approach? Why not try sound-proofing your tunnel(s)? On my layout I have a single line tunnel about six feet long, made of polystyrene and covered in scenic scatter etc. Although no specific attempt was made to sound-proof, the sound from my sound locos is significantly reduced when in the tunnel and (of course) increases when they emerge. The success or otherwise of this suggestion is likely to depend on the length of your covered way and the width of the openings but it might achieve an acceptable result.

 

Nigel - I am in awe of your electronics expertise and read your explanations with great interest but most of it is too technical for me to comprehend despite your excellent descriptions.

 

Harold.

[st1ngr4y]

Harold,

Thanks for the suggestion, but the tunnel covers hidden sidings, so after entering at one end, a train would halt in a siding and remain there for maybe 10-15 minutes until required again. I would need a loco with sound to be silent during this "parked" period.

 

Nigel,

Thanks for your script. I'm reading this at 22:40, far too late to risk trying it tonight, so I'll give it a go tomorrow.

 

Once again, many thanks.

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Ray,

 

At the risk of upsetting Nigel, may I suggest a different approach? Why not try sound-proofing your tunnel(s)? ..........

 

Nigel - I am in awe of your electronics expertise and read your explanations with great interest but most of it is too technical for me to comprehend despite your excellent descriptions.

 

Soundproofing had crossed my mind too, but I was trying to answer Ray's specific request. I did include "apart from turning the sound on and off", which is by far the simplest option ! The earlier post explained that if you turn sound on/off whilst moving, then the startup and shut down sequences are ignored.

 

- Nigel

[st1ngr4y]

Nigel,

I'm not sure about that. As I said earlier, I am running my trains using Railmaster programs, and in one of these which brings the Class 25 into the tunnel and to a halt in the siding, I inserted a command to send F1 (sound on/off) to the loco immediately after entering the tunnel. When the program executed, the train came to a stop still emitting sound about 12 seconds after entering the tunnel. It took another few seconds before the shut down sound sequence started. Another program, which starts the Class 25 in the tunnel, was set to send F1 shortly before reaching the exit from the tunnel, and in this case the sound was the engine full flow, i.e. the start up sequence was skipped.

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Ray,

 

Your second case (loco moving silently, then turn on sound whilst moving) is behaving correctly. The sound startup sequence should be skipped.

 

The first case is not as I'd expect a LokSound decoder to behave. Try it manually, drive a loco with sound playing using the Elite's throttles, and turn the sound off whilst moving. Testing with manual throttles will help to indicate whether it is a decoder issue.

 

 

 

If using a computer to drive the trains (RailMaster), then another option for sound levels might be to alter the volume (CV63) under computer control. Issue an Ops-mode programming instruction to the chip whilst it is running to set the sound level. I've no idea if RailMaster will let you do this.

 

- Nigel

[st1ngr4y]

Ray,

 

Your second case (loco moving silently, then turn on sound whilst moving) is behaving correctly. The sound startup sequence should be skipped.

 

The first case is not as I'd expect a LokSound decoder to behave. Try it manually, drive a loco with sound playing using the Elite's throttles, and turn the sound off whilst moving. Testing with manual throttles will help to indicate whether it is a decoder issue.

 

 

 

If using a computer to drive the trains (RailMaster), then another option for sound levels might be to alter the volume (CV63) under computer control. Issue an Ops-mode programming instruction to the chip whilst it is running to set the sound level. I've no idea if RailMaster will let you do this.

 

- Nigel

Nigel,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you - I decided I need 8 hidden sidings instead of 6 so I've a major permanent way project underway. I did as you suggested - I set the Class 25 in motion with sound on, then issued a F1 sound on/off through the Elite. After another 10 seconds, I used the Elite's throttle to stop the loco. I timed it - the shut down sound sequence started almost exactly 15 seconds after the loco came to a standstill.

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Nigel,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you - I decided I need 8 hidden sidings instead of 6 so I've a major permanent way project underway. I did as you suggested - I set the Class 25 in motion with sound on, then issued a F1 sound on/off through the Elite. After another 10 seconds, I used the Elite's throttle to stop the loco. I timed it - the shut down sound sequence started almost exactly 15 seconds after the loco came to a standstill.

Ray

 

Ray, something unusual in that loco, but it may be internal to the sound project and thus not adjustable by the end user. It has me baffled.

 

The alternatives are to try either the fader/mute stuff (earlier in thread), or try writing an Ops-mode volume change whilst on the move.

 

- Nigel

[Mike-Greg]

Hi

 

I have a Bachmann class25

32-400DS BR Blue

 

I have just tried it on our layout

When running with sound on if i press the button to to switch it off it stops the sound direct no run down

When running with no sound and press the button the sound starts no run up

 

this is with an Elite

 

Mike

[HLT 0109]

Hi

 

I have a Bachmann class25

32-400DS BR Blue

 

I have just tried it on our layout

When running with sound on if i press the button to to switch it off it stops the sound direct no run down

When running with no sound and press the button the sound starts no run up

 

this is with an Elite

 

Mike

This is how my 32-401DS reacts with NCE Power Cab.

[st1ngr4y]

This is how my 32-401DS reacts with NCE Power Cab.

Thanks for those observations, Mike and HLT. Mine is 32-330DS BR Green D5183. I believe mine has a Loksound v4.0 Decoder. Is this what yours have ?

[Mike-Greg]

Hi

 

Mine is a Loksound 3.5

dont think the 4 was in production when i bought the loco

 

Mike