LNER ground signals; route setting

[Loxborough]

Title and topic description pretty much say it all...

 

I am starting to signal my model based on Tallington in approx '38 (see other thread on heer) and I have come up with a puzzler;

 

Without going into great detail, there is a turnout on the down slow through which a train could back up either straight into the down yard, or over the lines into the up yard. My understanding of the literature (and various forum posts) is that on the GWR, LMS and others, including it seems the GCR, this would have been signalled using stacked ground signals, with the top one indicating the route across the lines to the up yard ('cos this is the leftmost move) and the bottom indicating the shunt straight into the down yard. The same sources, however, seem to indicate that it was not GNR or LNER practice to stack ground signals (and it is not clear to me, anyway, how stacking of rotating heads would have worked mechanically). So, when the driver of a goods train was reay to set back through the ground signal, and he looked to see that the signal was off, how did he know that it was set for his intended route?

 

The (massively simplified) diagram below may help understanding of my tortuous description.

 

 

Any guidance would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

George

[The Stationmaster]

LNER practice for multiple discs seems to have come in two forms the most common of which was to mount one behind another and sightly higher so that both could be seen from an engine. The other form which photos suggests existed was to use two discs mounted next to each other - possibly even three sometimes as the GCR has done in preservation? But generally the LNER group seems to have gone in for single discs reading to several different routes - a practice which the GWR also adopted after WWII (although it also had another way of a disc reading to two different routes from the 1890s onwards).

[Loxborough]

LNER practice for multiple discs seems to have come in two forms the most common of which was to mount one behind another and sightly higher so that both could be seen from an engine. The other form which photos suggests existed was to use two discs mounted next to each other - possibly even three sometimes as the GCR has done in preservation? But generally the LNER group seems to have gone in for single discs reading to several different routes - a practice which the GWR also adopted after WWII (although it also had another way of a disc reading to two different routes from the 1890s onwards).

 

Seriosly impressive response time, especially in the middle of the night; thanks very much.

 

Sounds like I could get away with a single disc in this case, but as I am automating the signals based on relays fed by point position (which I know is back to front logic...), and the relay cascade is going to get hideous if I try to set up a single disc reading to two routes, I will probably go for you option 1.

 

Thanks again,

 

George

[beast66606]

but as I am automating the signals based on relays fed by point position (which I know is back to front logic...),

 

Noooooooo (imho)

 

I absolutely hate that, in your case, if you set a route out of the down yard the disc will clear or you set a route from the up yard to the down slow.

[chaz]

Good point. I also abhor signals which show off when the movement is in the other direction. However an on/off switch at the front of the relay cascade will prevent this. A changeover switch labelled up/down would also do the trick. I would use a centre off and this would avoid the signals coming off when no movement is to be made.

 

I'm all for working signals....

 

 

Hope you don't mind this off-topic snap....

 

Chaz

[Loxborough]

Noooooooo (imho)

 

I absolutely hate that, in your case, if you set a route out of the down yard the disc will clear or you set a route from the up yard to the down slow.

 

Yeeeees (imho). My trainset...

 

However, RM web being what it is, I now feel that I have to rise to your challenge. The issues are twofold;

 

1. The philosophy (big word) of the layout's operation is that you set the route, the relays check occupancy and if there is nothing showing in the way then the signals clear the route. On what will thus become (eventually) a relatively complex roundy roundy, the operators just have to obey the signals and they should not crash into anything.

 

2. I am rather proud of what I regard as the elegance of my control arrangement for this board (an ethed brass layout diagram will be fixed in front of the levers);

 

 

and I am not about to start adding other buttons to it!!!

 

So, the solution; occupancy detection in the sidings. If the route is set this gives three conditions;

 

1. Train detected in the yard exit road; route signalled for out

2. Train detected on mainline just in front of yard entrance; route signalled for in

3. No train detected; no route set.

 

Would this be satisfactory to you?

 

(if you could let me have an address to which I could send the invoice for the extra relays etc I would be most grateful!)

 

On a serious note, I thank you for keeping standards up like this; when I 'came back' to modelling I was happy with railroad rolling stock on 3rd radius set track and no signals. This forum (and people like you nudging me gently to look again at what I am doing) is mainly responsible for getting me from there to a place where I worry about the difference between GNR and NER timbering on tandem turnouts!

 

Best,

 

George

 

(edited because my fat fingers posted the first time before the post was complete)

[beast66606]

Yeeeees (imho). My trainset...

 

Of course.

 

1. The philosophy (big word) of the layout's operation is that you set the route, the relays check occupancy and if there is nothing showing in the way then the signals clear the route. On what will thus become (eventually) a relatively complex roundy roundy, the operators just have to obey the signals and they should not crash into anything.

 

Unless you limit the sidings to one loco then occupancy detection does not solve the problem, you may already have an engine in the sidings and want to send a second inside, in that case the signal won't clear, even worse, the wrong one would clear as it would "think" you were signalling a departure.

 

An alternative, if it's not too late, is to make each signal lever route setting, so clearing the signal sets the route - as per the Great Western at Winchester Chesil and I'm sure other companies/places.

 

Your layout as you say.

[Loxborough]

A fair point, especially as brake vans will be fitted with pickups, lights and resistors so that they look to the system like locos (ie both ends of the train are detected) so a brake van left standing in the yard would fool the system. So, occupancy detection only in the section of the sidings immediately in front of the signal that clears out to the main line, and a local rule to the effect that locos pootling about (not the technical term, I know) in the sidings should stay (25 yards?) back from the signal unless they intend to go out to the main line.

 

I know that gives its own issues, but it as far as I really want to go!

 

I had thought about making the signals route setting but I am doing the thing (very slowly) one board at a time with points generally going in before signals, and phasing copnstruction would have been v difficult.

 

Best,

 

G

[beast66606]

Your layout as you say.

 

[chaz]

Yeeeees (imho). My trainset...

...........

1. Train detected in the yard exit road; route signalled for out

2. Train detected on mainline just in front of yard entrance; route signalled for in

3. No train detected; no route set.

 

Would this be satisfactory to you?

 

 

Of course - your trainset......and you are free to do just whatever you want to control it. Of course others may well express their "I wouldn't do it that way" sentiments so, if you can't stand the heat - don't post on forum. Sorry if that sounds rude, it wasn't meant to be, just making the point that forum is like a discussion amongst friends - and everyone is free to chip in with their two pennuth....

 

I can see what you are aiming for from the above and I must say I heartily approve of operators having to obey signals. My layout is always operated by two - one plays driver, the other signalman - and strict observance of the signals is de rigeur - SPADS are treated with derisive banter..... This does mean that my goods yard is rather over-signalled. It's much more like the NER than the parsimonious GNR - still it is my trainset........

 

Chaz

[Loxborough]

Of course - your trainset......and you are free to do just whatever you want to control it. Of course others may well express their "I wouldn't do it that way" sentiments so, if you can't stand the heat - don't post on forum. Sorry if that sounds rude, it wasn't meant to be, just making the point that forum is like a discussion amongst friends - and everyone is free to chip in with their two pennuth....

 

 

Absolutely agree; see the later paragraph in the post which you quote;

 

"On a serious note, I thank you for keeping standards up like this; when I 'came back' to modelling I was happy with railroad rolling stock on 3rd radius set track and no signals. This forum (and people like you nudging me gently to look again at what I am doing) is mainly responsible for getting me from there to a place where I worry about the difference between GNR and NER timbering on tandem turnouts!"

 

So, thanks to both of you for posting you views, and thus improving my trainset!

 

G

[AberdeenBill]

Hi George,

 

Is N7 in the plan a trap point or does it lead somewhere not drawn on the plan?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[LNERGE]

36 disc reads to probably 5 locations, give or take the odd hand point. 21 and 22 show a completely different way of doing thing's..

 

[Loxborough]

Hi George,

 

Is N7 in the plan a trap point or does it lead somewhere not drawn on the plan?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

N7 is a trap which keeps stock in the yard off the main down slow.

 

I sense that there is something else behind the question..... have I got this wrong in some way?

 

G

[Loxborough]

36 disc reads to probably 5 locations, give or take the odd hand point. 21 and 22 show a completely different way of doing thing's..

 

 

I think this illustrates beautifully the difficulties faced by those of us who are new to the science of signalling; there are so many principles (NB not rules) that one is tempted to think that there is a hard and fast way of doing everything, but so many of the principles can be pushed or straight ignored because of conflicting factors that what seems like clear certainty disappears into a puff of smoke.

 

Which is why I for one am so grateful for the support which is available on this forum.

 

G

[micknich2003]

36 disc reads to probably 5 locations, give or take the odd hand point. 21 and 22 show a completely different way of doing thing's..

 

Also no doubt some very interesting "Conditional Locking".

[LNERGE]

Also no doubt some very interesting "Conditional Locking".

 

On the subject of locking.. To go from up slow to down slow using 36 disc what point levers would you expect to pull?

[Grovenor]

To go from up slow to down slow using 36 disc what point levers would you expect to pull?

33,31,35, then the signal.

Getting back to the original question, when a shunt signal was used for multiple routes, then it was required that the shunter and the bobby came to an understanding of the required moves so the bobby could set the routes in the required sequence. There would not be any other indication.

Regards

Keith

[LNERGE]

31, 35 then 36 disc.

 

Here's another GN trailing ladder, this time at New Barnet North.. A clear understanding was essential. Also not all the points carried detection

 

 

[AberdeenBill]

N7 is a trap which keeps stock in the yard off the main down slow.

 

I sense that there is something else behind the question..... have I got this wrong in some way?

 

G

 

Sorry George, not at all. I just realised that the down slow starts to the left of N4 (just like your caption states... )

 

Bill

[Grovenor]

31, 35 then 36 disc.

So how does 33 get to be reverse then?

Rgds

Keith

[beast66606]

So how does 33 get to be reverse then?

Rgds

Keith

 

Why does it need to be reversed ? - it's the crossover between the up and down main and doesn't need reversing in the up slow - down slow move.

[The Stationmaster]

Getting back to the original question, when a shunt signal was used for multiple routes, then it was required that the shunter and the bobby came to an understanding of the required moves so the bobby could set the routes in the required sequence. There would not be any other indication.

Keith

Are you sure? The normal requirement was that a clear understanding should be reached before shunting commenced and (and I think not stated as such in the Rule Book although I'm always open to 'memory update' ) that the Shunter would advise the Signalman what moves were required and once the road was set the Signalman would simply pull-off the signal. There were handsignals to cater for absence of fixed signals and also to indicate when a movement was clear of points worked from a signalbox but that was about it - mostly in Rule 111 and transferred with minimal alteration into Section J of the 'new' Rule Book.

[Eggesford box]

Hi,

as you have realised, practises varied with different companies and even the same company at different times. Also if a location came under different regions at different times alterations would tend to be done following that regions practise. Banbury North for instance has a single disc reading two ways with no indication of route, a single disc with an illuminated route indicator and stacked triple discs.

[Grovenor]

Why does it need to be reversed ? - it's the crossover between the up and down main and doesn't need reversing in the up slow - down slow move.

Quite right, sorry, must have been late .

Are you sure?

Well you seem to have said the same thing, in slightly different words.

regards

Keith