Lochty no more Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Tripped over something in the long grass today at the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society, turned out to be a set of NBR Level Crossing Gates in deplorable condition. The gates had just been plonked on the ground and forgotten about, they had not enough sense to lay them on a couple of sleepers, as a result the timber has rotted away. As the timber on the gates is a write off, however the iron work can be salvaged. So I set about measuring & reccording, the gates are 4` x 14` and are a pair from Broughty Ferry station near Dundee, the other pair had an accident with an Inter-city 125 and are now firewood. We require a single track crossing at the end of our proposed station platform for dissabled access ( mums with buggies ect ) it is hoped to rebuild the gates as two single gates for this crossing. Now Level crossings are not my strong suite, so I had a trawl through Peter Westwaters photie collection looking for a nice photo of a single track level crossing - no luck the best photo I could find is this one this is the site of the original Leven station ( 1855 ) the original engine shed is visable on the extreme right, the site was used as Leven goods yard with a J88 signalled to leave the goods yard heading for Kirkland yard. The level crossing gate on the left is a longer gate (probably 17` or 18`) but identical in all other respects, detail of the gatepost is visible ( thats the bit we dont have - and will have to fabricate something ) If any one has photo`s or drawings of NBR crossing gates post them they will be a great help to us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 If nothing else, you have the "Iron Work", timber though expensive can easily be got. Best Wishes, Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Hi Lochty, You're a great man for taking on new projects! Good luck with this one. I don't know if the Broughty Ferry gates are genuine NBR, the Caley built the box, but anyway I suspect they were demolished several times before the HST finally did for them and they were replaced by barriers. (Which still seem to get into trouble! - see link). Here's a general idea of gate hanging arrangements, from "Railway Signalling and Communications", published 1940 and so (I hope) out of copyright: However, this shows solid timber hanging posts, which the Highland used, but I think most Caley and NB gates used cast-iron posts and wrought-iron tie rods which they bought in from one of the contractors (Stevens?). There are images of the Broughty gates' hanging posts here and here. If you open http://maps.google.co.uk/ and put in postcode DD11 4TZ, then look at the Streetview image by dragging the orange man to the road, you will be looking at the former Caley Glasterlaw level crossing, which has a preserved lower quadrant signal and the remnants of the gate, including the hanging posts and a wicket gate. With a bit of effort you can get quite a reasonable view: Might be worth a site visit if you go ahead with the project. I seem to remember there's a similar hanging post in a field fence at Ardler level crossing a bit further south, or there was about ten years back... no idea if it's been swept away now. The (Scottish) national archive has one or two useful looking elevation drawings for NB gates in their index, though they seem to have more Caley examples. Maybe if you have a colleague visiting the Sighthill archive they could check them out: RHP 19631 Plan and elevation of gates for level crossing at Mitchel Street, Duddingston (London and North Eastern Railway). RHP 26387 Plan and elevation of level crossing gates on the Markinch and Leslie branches of British Railways (1955) RHP 26555 Elevation of typical level crossing gates on the Markinch and Leslie branches of British Railways (1960) RHP 26624 Details of level crossing gates on the Markinch and Leslie branches of British Railways (1959) Finally there are a couple of photos in "LNER Constituent Signalling" in the Signalboxes section which show NB hanging posts. Hope that helps generate ideas and please keep us up to date with progress - as you usually do! cheers Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 A bit more gate info here.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Well done to Graham R for his customary comprehensive reply and LNERGE for his helpfull drawing, exactly the stuff we need. Graham R first photo is particularly interesting as the gates are so rotten I had not realised the vertical member on the end of the gate had a curved top and extended above the top rail - it`s completely rotted away. I also note one gate has 4 tie rods and the other has 5 (previous accident?). I will clear away the rest of the veggitation and post some more detailed photo`s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 It's a shame the gate has rotted Lochty, I hate to think what the replacement timber would cost. You probably know (but others might be interested) that there's still a crossing gate (but of the wooden hanging-post type) not far from you which must have been disused and without maintenance for at least fifty years - on the A955 at Coaltown of Wemyss, on the former Wemyss Private Railway siding to Hugo pit/storage depot. I remember noticing it over thirty years ago and was astonished to see it again on revisiting last year. Some photos: The wood looks in not bad shape all things considered. A bit long for your purpose though! cheers Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Graham R first photo is particularly interesting as the gates are so rotten I had not realised the vertical member on the end of the gate had a curved top and extended above the top rail - it`s completely rotted away... In that case you might like this shot which I took in the mid 1970s - horrible photo, but a mere forty years later it finally finds a purpose in life It seems it sported wire netting at that time, presumably to stop small boys like me from standing on the bars as the signalman wound the gate wheel to close it ... cheers Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I've this pic from June 86. Best of luck with the jigsaw! Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2012 some good views of level crossings from a quick search on RCAHMS canmore site obviously you'll need to look out the NBR ones - e.g. pic of carnoustie, halbeath 1 and halbeath 2. incidentally, just noticed the asymmetric gates at halbeath, would this be because the roads on each side are different widths? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 The Longforgan gates seem very similar in construction to those at Broughty Ferry so perhaps they are a CR design - or perhaps a common contractor was used by the NB and CR. Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff mcghie Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Think it was a common contractor design as these at Holywood on the GSW are also similar. Picture taken with appropriate protection etc, etc, etc. I tried uploading a gallery of detail shots taken at Holywood but can;t get it to work so pm sent to lochty instead. Cheers jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted October 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2012 interesting one at comrie in that both gates open to the one side and the 2 sets of tie-rods per gate attach at the top even in the more 'standard' looking gates, there seems to be the option of rectangular 'panels' with long bracing member or shorter square panels, each with a bracing member Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Amazed at how much hanging-post is in the ground! They meant`em to last in those days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Some great photo`s showing the kind of detail that we are after, as far as I can tell the crossing gates were a standard design of "Stevens & son" of Glasgow sold to a number of Scottish Railway companies. I think our major problem will be the clamp type castings joining the gates to the gatepost, the gate post itself should be relativly straitforward to fabricate ( by some of our engineering types )as soon as we have the measurements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Some more detail photo`s of the crossing gates the electric cable is for the gate lamp the cast operating crank is keyed to hold it in place the pivot on which the gate operates the number 19 cast onto the bracket ( perhaps a part No ) the gate bolt once it has been cleaned up, square headed screws held this in place and the bracket from the bottom corner of the gate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 We also need two of these level crossing lamps (LNER pattern I think) Photograph courtesy of Jeff McGhie of this parish I have convinced myself that I have seen one lying about somewhere, but to date the only thing I have found so far is the lamp that goes inside the crossing lamp casting that just reinforces my belive that we have them somewhere - the search continues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Yes, they are std LNER pattern lamps. Best Wishes, Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDEEDIESEL Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Seeing these photos has made me feel sick as Broughty Ferry signalbox and level crossing was my favourite location in the 1970's.(I dont remember the mesh on them though)A lot of people are still bitter about the removal of the gates and the later removal of the signalbox which was also allowed to rot away in a container.The "copy" that has recently been installed at the other side of the station is in my opinion very poor!!Sad images indeed.Mind you the one from the 70's is brilliant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The lenses are 90 degrees apart. It is not that common to see this type. Where i have had trouble getting lamps to face both road or rail i have made them rotate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 The lenses are 90 degrees apart. It is not that common to see this type. Where i have had trouble getting lamps to face both road or rail i have made them rotate. Yes, I have seen examples of the LNWR doing the same thing at the turn of the century ( this may turn out to be plan B if I cant find the B****Y things ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Not the best photo but here is the gate post with attachment, a bit of point rodding forming a link to the lamp with special base.. I found this picture after a quick search. The near lamp rotates. The far lamp is fixed.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frinton/8033594265/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDEEDIESEL Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Anybody got any further pictures of the signals/gates at Broughty Ferry over the years?Nearly all the photos i took are of locomotives going through and the photos miss a lot of the background detail that i took for granted at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Anybody got any further pictures of the signals/gates at Broughty Ferry over the years? Here's my photo of the Up platform starting signal in October 1978, with its co-acting arm. There is a nice photo of this signal on the last page of Marshall's "The Railways of Dundee", which shows it with two lower-quadrant arms, the upper one with NBR pattern spectacle plate, the lower with CR pattern. Sighting of the signal was affected by the steel-lattice footbridge at the west end of the platform, hence the co-acting arm. It's interesting that this is almost certainly a 1930s modification. The steel footbridge - which allowed Up passengers a quick exit route to Fort Street via the exit stairs from the Down platform - was additional to the wooden footbridge and subway at the east end above the crossing gates, and wasn't added until after the Grouping; maps and aerial photos narrow it down to the 1932-1938 period. The curve of the line surely meant that neither the Up platform awning nor the wooden footbridge blocked the driver's view - the latter was too high to interfere anyway - so no need for the second arm. My theory is that the co-acting arm was required for stopping trains' drivers, who would pull up short of the signal so the train was positioned for passengers from the main Gray Street entrance. The steel footbridge would block their view of the upper arm for re-starting. In spite of both LNE and LMS being committed to upper-quadrant arms from the early 1920s, it seems no-one thought it was worth paying to modernise the whole signal to UQ; simpler just to stick on a spare arm and it happened to be Caley pattern! The signal was still LQ in 1958 (photo by Peter Hay in "Memories of Steam from Glasgow to Aberdeen") so I imagine it was modernised in the 60s. You have probably come across this late shot of the signal and footbridge, which may be in 1984. The signal is not shown on the plan accompanying the May 1985 Dundee resignalling (the crossover was retained with position-light subsidiary signals; the Up and Down section signals remained as semaphores). I'm not sure when the footbridge was removed, the 1990s maybe? but it must have been largely useless after the Fort Street station entrance was closed, which as far as I recall was gone by the 1970s. regards Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRDEEDIESEL Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Thanks Graham-Great Photo!! Spent many a happy day here in the 70's and 80's looking at all the BR Blue diesels.Just the way i will always remember it!!!Thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochty no more Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 The search for two level crossing lamps at the KFRPS continues, today I found another crossing lamp ( of a different pattern ) but still no lamp castings the only place left to look is in a 40 foot container, rumoured to be filled with mostly permenant way stuff ( a bowline will be secured round my waist before entry and I am going in ) what could possibly go wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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