Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Mornin' all, The topic of BR Rules & Regs is potentially vast so why not have a specific topic of the day, suggested by a modeller wanting to know about a particular aspect of 1948 to 1980 BR operation e.g.distant signals, pipes on loco bufferbeams, headcodes etc and we'll have a concerted effort to pool all relevant information on one thread for that day? Any starters? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Starters: a stop signal usually sited at the end of a platform. Can also be the section signal, giving entry to the block section ahead of the signal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Starters: a stop signal usually sited at the end of a platform. Can also be the section signal, giving entry to the block section ahead of the signal. Mornin' Roy, ....we're instantly into the jargon of the railway. The name 'Starter' can be given to the stop signal controlling access to the block section in advance but the name shouldn't be confused with a stop signal described as a platform starter, which may only authorise movements towards the next stop signal. Tip for absolute beginners - Google the BR video 'Absolute block', it was a training film for signalmen and gives the basics of the signalling system. Here is a link to a suitable instructional video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT_AVJjnotc&list=PL04B08DA76EB0306F&index=27&feature=plpp_video on U-tube On lines worked under the 'Absolute Block' system of signalling, easily the most common during the 1948-1980 period, the Section signal or 'Starter' could have been a semaphore stop signal - red arm (with white vertical band) horizontal for stop and raised or lowered by 45 degrees to show proceed, at night showing a red light for stop and a green light for proceed or else a two aspect colour light signal capable of showing red or green. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2012 Starters: a stop signal usually sited at the end of a platform. Can also be the section signal, giving entry to the block section ahead of the signal. Alas not. The term Starter Signal (normally in the form 'starting' in later years) was usually applied to the signal reading into the block section in advance although this could sometimes be called an Advance Starter - hence the Rule Book reference for many years (it goes back to at least 1900) to the Starter Signal in respect of movements into the block section in advance. Nowadays - and for some years past this signal is - very logically - referred to in the Rules & Regs as the 'Section Signal'. Company/BR Regional practice regarding naming of stop signals varied quite a lot - e.g. on the LM the Starter or Starting Signal was the most advanced stop signal applying to a particular through running line at a signalbox. On the GWR all running line stop signal in advance of the signalbox were suffixed 'starting signal' with their exact name depending on their relationship to any other starting signals applying to that line, and just to be awkward signals which controlled the movement out of dead end platforms were called 'starter' (n.b. that was GWR/WR practice) Edit to correct trypos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 11, 2012 When you have finished with starter signals (on which I follow the perfectly logical GWR practice), here is a real life query from this summer. I was travelling from Newtown, Powys, to Birmingham in the summer. The trains reverse direction at Shewsbury. We did fine as far as Shrewsbury, arriving in the northbound through platform. Then we were told that all traffic to Wolverhampton had been put on hold by Network Rail because of signalling problems in the Wolverhampton area. I never found out the details but they don't matter here. After a while we were told that there was a train bound for the north (Crewe or Chester I assume) wanting to use the platform so we would be shunted into one of the south facing bay platforms. This was done quite quickly, and we came back into the station as soon as the northbound train had cleared the junction south of the station. Then after a while, we were told that we would be going to Crewe instead of Birmingham (shades of Oh, Mr Porter!), but we were now in a south facing bay, so had to shunt back to the northbound platform. Now comes my query. We had to leave the train while this happened, even though the previous shunt had been done without. As fas as I can see we went out of the station the same distance, to the same signal, before reversing. Can anyone explain why one movement should have been OK for a loaded train and the other not? Incidentally, despite spending over an hour at Shrewsbury, I arrived at my final destination, Chesterfield, via Crewe and Stockport, less than an hour late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 ....it may have been an unsignalled move or required to pass over points without a facing point lock. Don't know exact details as I'm not familiar with Shrewsbury layout now. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2012 . Now comes my query. We had to leave the train while this happened, even though the previous shunt had been done without. As fas as I can see we went out of the station the same distance, to the same signal, before reversing. Can anyone explain why one movement should have been OK for a loaded train and the other not? Pick anyone from the following list - but first a quick check of the 'box diagram shows that 85 & 86 points which are normally trailing and over which the first move had to pass in the facing direction haven't got bolts (FPLs) and the second move would have had to pass over 86 in the facing direction. So firstly I'll be exceedingly generous or act like Nelson and assume someone got there to secure those points for the first move but wasn't available to do the same for the second one, or secondly I'll be slightly less generous and say the first move was done in a hurry without time to think things through but there was more time to think about the second one. Now I'll get a bit less generous and say they made the first move without thinking it through but woke up before they made the second one and did it properly, Or I'll be even less generous and say the first time they did and got away with it because no one was looking but that somebody latched on before the second move and gave them a gentle hint about doing it properly (or I'll be much less generous and say they were caught out the first time and realised they couldn't get away with doing it wrong the second time). I don't know any of those involved and it's an awful long time since I was around that neck of the woods so I haven't got a clue which it was (but I can guess, and am not saying). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 11, 2012 Or I'll be even less generous and say the first time they did and got away with it because no one was looking but that somebody latched on before the second move and gave them a gentle hint about doing it properly (or I'll be much less generous and say they were caught out the first time and realised they couldn't get away with doing it wrong the second time). Il go for this one ^^^^^ ""How did you make that move earlier without the points being scotched and clipped??"" Ermm, we had a guy do it but he's gone home...... ............best we find a points opperator or route setting agent etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Pick anyone from the following list - but first a quick check of the 'box diagram shows that 85 & 86 points which are normally trailing and over which the first move had to pass in the facing direction haven't got bolts (FPLs) and the second move would have had to pass over 86 in the facing direction. So firstly I'll be exceedingly generous or act like Nelson and assume someone got there to secure those points for the first move but wasn't available to do the same for the second one, or secondly I'll be slightly less generous and say the first move was done in a hurry without time to think things through but there was more time to think about the second one. Now I'll get a bit less generous and say they made the first move without thinking it through but woke up before they made the second one and did it properly, Or I'll be even less generous and say the first time they did and got away with it because no one was looking but that somebody latched on before the second move and gave them a gentle hint about doing it properly (or I'll be much less generous and say they were caught out the first time and realised they couldn't get away with doing it wrong the second time). I don't know any of those involved and it's an awful long time since I was around that neck of the woods so I haven't got a clue which it was (but I can guess, and am not saying). I don't have the benefit of a signalling diagram so from the description, this is what I understand ; The poster's train arrived on platform 4 which is the main platform for trains heading towards Crewe and Chester. Trains used to be able to depart from platform 4 towards Abbey Foregate Jn (towards the left) and towards Sutton Bridge Jn to the right - both with passengers on. Passenger trains were also able to arrive in the south bays platforms 5 and 6 from Abbey Foregate Jn and Sutton Bridge Jn, and depart towards these locations. This theoretically means that provided the trains could be crossed over at Abbey Foregate Jn, Coleham or Sutton Bridge Jn, then theoretically the train could have done the shunt. However, I imagine rationalisation of the signalling has reduced the options available to the operators. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Whilst operating Bradford North Western last week the signalman (Steamale of this parish) pulled off his down home to allow the train to enter the station immediately after the train had entered the preceding section. The driver commented that whenever he went on a train entering a terminus it was always slowed at the starter and this signal was only pulled off when the train had nearly reached that signal and was almost at a halt. The date at BNW is always summer 1958 and it is an ex-LMS station, recently "moved" to the NE Region. Is the "driver" right about current rules, and if so would that also have applied in our imaginary timescale/location? I have a vague recollection that the rule regarding this was changed in the 1960s or 70s after a train arrived too fast in a terminus station, the driver having believed to have mistaken his location, I believe on the Underground. Ian (for whom no detail is too small, says my wife, but using less elegant phrasing) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Moorgate (1975) led to a change of practice with main line colour light signalling where with the route clear to the buffer stops the last signal before the terminus only cleared to single yellow rather than green as previously. I'm not aware of any change to semaphore practice but no doubt somebody better informed will be along shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Evenin' C'wyke, I'm with the driver at the moment but haven't got the right publication to say for certain, likewise I'm sure that it won't be long before we hear from somone who has. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2012 Whilst operating Bradford North Western last week the signalman (Steamale of this parish) pulled off his down home to allow the train to enter the station immediately after the train had entered the preceding section. The driver commented that whenever he went on a train entering a terminus it was always slowed at the starter and this signal was only pulled off when the train had nearly reached that signal and was almost at a halt. The date at BNW is always summer 1958 and it is an ex-LMS station, recently "moved" to the NE Region. Varied, Brirkenhead Woodside had a working distant to the buffer stops, so the home would be off however I'd be worried if the starter was off when approaching the stops ... Typically the main route (platform) would be a free pull and not require track occupancy, other platforms would be approach controlled, it would depend on circumstances and I doubt there is a 100% for every location rule to cover it (not on the LM anyway!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2012 Pull off - nothing in the Rules to prevent a Signalman pulling off if the train is following its booked route, it's not normally the Signalman's job to do the driver's work for him . But there might be Special Instructions in force for short platforms or in the event that a train which normally goes to a long platform has to be put into a short platform. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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