Wright writes.....

[Gilbert]

I'll second the comments on the DVDs - really useful intro to the dark arts...

Chris

[davidw]

I'll second the comments on the DVDs - really useful intro to the dark arts...

Chris

Agreed - Coach construction was touched on in Detailing and Improving RTR, any thoughts  on complete Coach Construction DVD or fitting replacement Chassis to RTR?

[Tony Wright]

Agreed - Coach construction was touched on in Detailing and Improving RTR, any thoughts  on complete Coach Construction DVD or fitting replacement Chassis to RTR?

A complete coach construction DVD by Activity Media was thought of and was actually in the planning stage until my condition precluded its ever being made (by me, I mean).

 

A replacement chassis DVD was actually made (not by Activity Media but 'in house'), where I made new chassis in OO and one in EM for (amongst others) an original Bachmann B1 (EM) B1 (OO) and V2, Airfix 4F and 2P (replacing the hopeless tender drive), a Hornby Dean Goods (again junking the tender drive) and a Hornby tender-drive 'Britannia'. However, despite my preparations and work the DVD was never edited, such was the poor quality, and all the footage was dumped as far as I know. Making a DVD of the Right Track quality requires professional know-how and (of equal importance) professional equipment - not amateur point and shoot stuff, despite its claims of being HD!

 

If someone else contemplates making more DVDs, I wish them well, but it won't be me.    

[davidw]

That's shame on all counts. But thanks for all the effort; I regularly play them much to the wife's annoyance

Edited April 4, 2014 by davidw

[LNER4479]

It's rarely I do much in the way of modelling these days. However, I can occasionally manage to tackle the likes of the K3 new frames project, and it's nice to know it's appreciated.

I for one hope you feel moved to keep making and posting your inspirational projects (great tip re containing the valve rod movement). You know you will always get a warm reception on this thread

[ROY@34F]

I for one hope you feel moved to keep making and posting your inspirational projects (great tip re containing the valve rod movement). You know you will always get a warm reception on this thread

I would like to echo 4479's remarks Tony . Keep trying ,  and keep sharing your ideas ... always interesting .

Roy .

[S.A.C Martin]

Tony - smashing work on the K3. My pair of K3s have always been a bit suspect, I wonder if there is an alternative in using the 5'8" drivers of the Hornby L1, set into an etched replacement chassis? These are readily available on eBay at the minute.

 

I have been reading a volume by Peter Townend this week, which I am certain you must be aware of - LNER Pacifics Remembered. A very interesting book with driver's memoirs. What is your opinion of the book? I myself have found it an enthralling read. Certainly the photographs not published before are worth their weight in gold.

[will5210]

Tony - smashing work on the K3. My pair of K3s have always been a bit suspect, I wonder if there is an alternative in using the 5'8" drivers of the Hornby L1, set into an etched replacement chassis? These are readily available on eBay at the minute.

 

I have been reading a volume by Peter Townend this week, which I am certain you must be aware of - LNER Pacifics Remembered. A very interesting book with driver's memoirs. What is your opinion of the book? I myself have found it an enthralling read. Certainly the photographs not published before are worth their weight in gold.

 

L1 wheels are 5'2" unfortunately. 

[S.A.C Martin]

L1 wheels are 5'2" unfortunately. 

 

Seem to have mixed up my classes somewhere - my apologies.

[Tony Wright]

Tony - smashing work on the K3. My pair of K3s have always been a bit suspect, I wonder if there is an alternative in using the 5'8" drivers of the Hornby L1, set into an etched replacement chassis? These are readily available on eBay at the minute.

 

I have been reading a volume by Peter Townend this week, which I am certain you must be aware of - LNER Pacifics Remembered. A very interesting book with driver's memoirs. What is your opinion of the book? I myself have found it an enthralling read. Certainly the photographs not published before are worth their weight in gold.

Simon,

           Thanks for the comments on the K3. As Will 5210 has mentioned above - wrong sized wheels in an L1.

 

I am most certainly aware of the book you mention, since I was asked to proof read it and date the pictures (none of which was done by Peter). So, if you can find mistakes in the dating, those are down to me.

 

Given your almost reverence of ET, the Chapter by TCB Miller makes most interesting reading. Considering that he was responsible (as Shedmaster at Haymarket) for running the P2s, for a senior man to consider the work of his superior to be a 'criminal act' does rather substantiate the 'prejudice' regarding the Thompson Pacifics. Remember, by then 2001 was a conventional loco so any of the criticisms about it (noted elsewhere in the book) didn't apply. It's a pity Geoff Lund's observations weren't published as well (Irwell had them), for he was equally scathing of ET's work as well. Since he was shedmaster at 64B post-war (subordinate to Miller at the time in question), his first-hand accounts paint a very poor picture of the A2/2s in particular. Jack Somer's chapter, though containing some praise for the A2s (including 60533), does acknowledge the short-comings of the Thompson chassis arrangement, which nobody can deny was wrong. Though it's not mentioned in Trask's chapter, his opinion of ET was also pretty low. The comments by BC Symes say it all when the drawing office staff effectively 'hid' the drawings from the CME. 

 

Draw your own own conclusions............

 

And, despite my obvious interest, I recommend the book even if some of the pictures have been published before. 

[Paddy]

It's rarely I do much in the way of modelling these days (depression is not to be recommended for anyone!) and I no longer attend shows as a demonstrator/speaker/layout operator/punter, etc. However, I can occasionally manage to tackle the likes of the K3 new frames project, and it's nice to know it's appreciated.

Hi Tony,

 

My heart goes out to you and your family. As a fellow sufferer I know how debilitating depression can be. Just came out of a bout of the black dog and I have been able to restart work on HOLLERTON JUNCTION.

 

It is good to see you posting on here and contributing to BRM once more. Take care and I hope you feel better soon.

 

Paddy

Edited April 4, 2014 by Paddy

[Raymond46]

Tony, i have an oldish Hornby black five that  my dad left me.Its running badly though it is dcc. How can  i find a new chassis?  Please can you help me following your article in the BRM yearbook of 2013. I would be verry grateful as it has a crappy tender drive.

Thanks a lot.

 

Raymond46

Edited April 6, 2014 by Raymond46

[Raymond46]

That goes for me too Tony I hd a stroke but I need to find a chassis for my old Hornby black five and i don;t know who to ask. i.m in real trouble if I can't get this awful engine to run properly without all the stalls and jiggers etc,

 

Please can you help me, please.......

 

Raymond46

 

didnt mean to post twice,sorry

Edited April 6, 2014 by Raymond46

[jrg]

Simon,

           Thanks for the comments on the K3. As Will 5210 has mentioned above - wrong sized wheels in an L1.

 

I am most certainly aware of the book you mention, since I was asked to proof read it and date the pictures (none of which was done by Peter). So, if you can find mistakes in the dating, those are down to me.

 

Given your almost reverence of ET, the Chapter by TCB Miller makes most interesting reading. Considering that he was responsible (as Shedmaster at Haymarket) for running the P2s, for a senior man to consider the work of his superior to be a 'criminal act' does rather substantiate the 'prejudice' regarding the Thompson Pacifics. Remember, by then 2001 was a conventional loco so any of the criticisms about it (noted elsewhere in the book) didn't apply. It's a pity Geoff Lund's observations weren't published as well (Irwell had them), for he was equally scathing of ET's work as well. Since he was shedmaster at 64B post-war (subordinate to Miller at the time in question), his first-hand accounts paint a very poor picture of the A2/2s in particular. Jack Somer's chapter, though containing some praise for the A2s (including 60533), does acknowledge the short-comings of the Thompson chassis arrangement, which nobody can deny was wrong. Though it's not mentioned in Trask's chapter, his opinion of ET was also pretty low. The comments by BC Symes say it all when the drawing office staff effectively 'hid' the drawings from the CME. 

 

Draw your own own conclusions............

 

And, despite my obvious interest, I recommend the book even if some of the pictures have been published before. 

"Toram Beg" was a Haymarket driver who wrote many articles in the fifties.  He was very critical of the P2s-but this seemed to be based on the fact that they were unsuited for their application-the Edinbugh-Aberdeen road was detrimental to their long fixed wheelbase, and they were underutilised on their planned diagrams.  Why they were not simply transferred to Kings Cross and used on the heavy traffic to Doncaster and York, for which they would have been ideal, is a mystery.  Willie Yeadon's observation that ET was adequate when he was not interfering with Gresley's work seems to sum it up.

[cctransuk]

Tony, i have an oldish Hornby black five that  my dad left me.Its running badly though it is dcc. How can  i find a new chassis?  Please can you help me following your article in the BRM yearbook of 2013. I would be verry grateful as it has a crappy tender drive.

Thanks a lot.

 

Raymond46

 

I am embarking on exactly the same project - a tender drive Hornby Black 5 that I can't bring myself to get rid of.

 

My loco drive strategy will be to fit Markits wheels, and a High Level gearbox / Mashima motor onto the rear driving axle.

 

There is an access space onto this axle that will only need a little widening, as Highlevel do a SlimLiner gearbox intended for 3mm. scale chassis.

 

Another option could utilise the fact that the free-running Hornby Black 5 chassis shows evidence of having been designed to take a backwards-facing X04 motor. The distinctive cut-out is there, filled with a ballast weight. If alternative arrangements for weighting could be made, fitting an X04 should be relatively easy.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[coachmann]

I am embarking on exactly the same project - a tender drive Hornby Black 5 that I can't bring myself to get rid of.

 

 

 

Another option could utilise the fact that the free-running Hornby Black 5 chassis shows evidence of having been designed to take a backwards-facing X04 motor. The distinctive cut-out is there, filled with a ballast weight. If alternative arrangements for weighting could be made, fitting an X04 should be relatively easy.

Sadly this says it all. The Black Five is dinasaurily long in the tooth and bringing it up to scratch means a lot of work plus a new Tender underframe. Even then it's 1980s origins are plain to see. Sadly, everyone who wants a Black Five probably has one and so it seems unlikely we will see a 21st Century model from anyone else.

Edited April 6, 2014 by coachmann

[St Enodoc]

Sadly this says it all. The Black Five is dinasaurily long in the tooth and bringing it up to scratch means a lot of work plus a new Tender underframe. Even then it's 1980s origins are plain to see. Sadly, everyone who wants a Black Five probably has one and so it seems unlikely we will see a 21st Century model from anyone else.

What a splendid new adverb Coachmann! I can think of several people in the model railway world to whom it could be applied...

[westerner]

I assume you are all talking about the early Hornby Black Five not the later one that came out about 10 years ago and the motor was in the loco and not the tender. It came out about the same time as the Bachmann standard class V. My mate bought both and the Hornby Black five was superior in all aspects, pulling power and slow and smooth running.

[cctransuk]

I assume you are all talking about the early Hornby Black Five not the later one that came out about 10 years ago and the motor was in the loco and not the tender. It came out about the same time as the Bachmann standard class V. My mate bought both and the Hornby Black five was superior in all aspects, pulling power and slow and smooth running.

 

Indeed - Ringfield tender drive and 'miniskirts' under the boller.

 

It represents one of my earliest renumbering / weathering projects and, as such, it deserves a place on my future Evercreech Junction layout.

 

I don't know whether I'll go as far as removing the 'skirts', but some decent wheels, a loco-mounted motor, and a decent tender chassis should make a passable job of it.

 

When one gets to my age, links with one's youth are not lightly cast aside!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Tony Wright]

Tony, i have an oldish Hornby black five that  my dad left me.Its running badly though it is dcc. How can  i find a new chassis?  Please can you help me following your article in the BRM yearbook of 2013. I would be verry grateful as it has a crappy tender drive.

Thanks a lot.

 

Raymond46

Raymond46,

                     Others have commented already about the Hornby Black Five. I've never had a tender drive version (yours), so I cannot comment from first-hand experience - other than to say that anything I've handled with a tender drive from Airfix/Hornby has been awful. The later, loco drive Hornby Black Five is far superior and apart from a few issues (anorexic axleboxes on the tender for instance) looks the part. On the Right Track Four DVD, I fitted a Brassmasters detailing kit which makes it even better.

 

Someone mentioned the original tender-drive 'Black Five' loco chassis has a backward-facing slot for an XO4/XO3 motor. Does this mean it shares the same chassis block as the B12, Hall, A3 and streamlined Coronation produced by Tri-ang? The B12 and the Hall had 'forward'-facing motors - for the A3 and Coronation, the driving wheel size was increased and the chassis turned around, but it was still the same block. I suppose you could use an XO4 five-pole replacement to fit in the slot - Airfix/MWOO5 etc. My real advice would be to build a Comet replacement chassis, especially as the original Hornby valve gear was/is pretty dire.    

[Tony Wright]

"Toram Beg" was a Haymarket driver who wrote many articles in the fifties.  He was very critical of the P2s-but this seemed to be based on the fact that they were unsuited for their application-the Edinbugh-Aberdeen road was detrimental to their long fixed wheelbase, and they were underutilised on their planned diagrams.  Why they were not simply transferred to Kings Cross and used on the heavy traffic to Doncaster and York, for which they would have been ideal, is a mystery.  Willie Yeadon's observation that ET was adequate when he was not interfering with Gresley's work seems to sum it up.

With regard to Toram Beg's (Norman Mackillop/McKillop?) writing about the P2s, I think his position regarding them is slightly suspect. Pre-war he can only ever have been in the most junior links at Haymarket (according to Geoff Lund) and thus rarely had to fire them (he probably wouldn't have driven them). That their long fixed wheelbase gave trouble on the torturous route through Fife there's no doubt, but they should never have been rebuilt. But, it's all been said before many times, and it was all a long time ago.   

[stewartingram]

With regard to X04 motors in chassis blocks, another suggestion?

As a former service engineer on Hornby/Scalextric from this era, I note that Scalextric went over to a can type motor rather than using the earlier X04 style they had before. This can motor was also used in the starter locos, but mounted in a plastic cradle that fitted into the X04 cutout. Possiblity of an adaption there to getting a smaller motor in - I would suggest the can version is perhaps too high revving?

Also, I have a Chinese made B12. This has a modern Chinese motor in place of the X04 of earlier years. The motor is much smaller, and I think also has a conversion cradle - I can open it up to check if anyone wishes? The B12 was bought new for £10 from Alley Pally, with a stripped gear, easily replaced, an absolute bargain. I'm quite a fan of the old X04, though usually regear them to be slower, but the new B12 is I think a good improvement. Worth considering to see if parts could be squeezed into other chassis such as the Black 5.

 

Stewart

[cctransuk]

 

"....I'm quite a fan of the old X04, though usually regear them to be slower........"

 

Stewart

 

 

Now that's what I'm very interested in !!

 

Can you suggest a source of gears of a higher ratio that have the same shaft separation as the standard X04 set?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited April 7, 2014 by cctransuk

[coachmann]

Not sure who produced them at this distance in time but there used to be 30 to 1 and 40 to 1 gear sets consisting of a steel worm and brass gearwheel in the days when motors like the XO4 and 5-pole variants were very popular. The latter could be screwed to a 1/8" axle.

[cctransuk]

 

"....I'm quite a fan of the old X04, though usually regear them to be slower........"

 

Stewart

 

 

Now that's what I'm very interested in !!

 

Can you suggest a source of gears of a higher ratio that have the same shaft separation as the standard X04 set?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

Well - I can confirm that the tender drive Black 5 loco chassis will take an X04 as a direct fit in the chassis weight cut-out - it just needs a hole drilling and tapping for the motor fixing screw.

 

Also, Ultrascale produce 40:1 direct replacement gears for the Tri-ang Hornby X04 powered chassis, with either 9/64" or 1/8" bore for Tr-ang Hornby or Romford axles.

 

So - I will convert my 1st generation Triang Hornby Black 5, (and a Standard 5 that I built from a Hornby Black 5 boiler and / Airfix Mogul kit parts), from tender drive to X04 loco drive with Ultrascale 40:1 gearing.

 

I will report back in due course.

 

Sorry for highjacking Tony's thread!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.