Wright writes.....

[johnarcher]

Looking at the flip side of the coin, if insufficient people purchased plastic RTR, we 'builders of things' would not be able to take advantage of the marvelous RTR models. The more people that rush out and buy Hornby and Bachmann the better. Such actions are not going to prevent "railway modellers" from building things and so we get to have our cake and eat it haha....

I hope you're right, but I suspect that if hordes of people are buying rtr then the demand isn't enough to keep ranges of kits and components going, and I'd think a good selection of those on the market is more use to 'builders of things' than any amount of rtr.

[Tony Wright]

Just to pick up a little on the 'kits/RTR debate', it's probably been aired at great length enough already. My point of view is quite well known by now I imagine, and whilst I applaud the standard of what's now available RTR, it personally interests me far less than stuff that folks have made, or are contemplating making. 

 

 

But, it only 'works' if the person making something at least has some idea/knowledge/degree of competence/ability/intelligence or what you will. Have you ever seen such a worse example of kit-building than this? It started out as an expensive DJH A1 kit but it is now no more than potential land-fill. It's part-soldered but unfortunately the solder used is electrical (high melting point), so the pan of boiling water won't reduce it to its parts. Glue of some bizarre type has also been employed, but what a mess! It came as part of an ebay purchase (see the second K3 and L1 below).

 

 

This came via ebay as well, bought by Geoff West who visited me today for more tuition/assistance. It's a SE Finecast K3, professionally built. I believe he bought it for something just over £100.00! What a bargain, and the previous owner must have taken a real hit in terms of money loss I'd say (though I have no idea how much the first owner paid). In fairness, it didn't run perfectly to start with - a trifle jerky and noisy. However, once the motor had been oiled and tweaked (made difficult by its too tight fit in the body caused by the thick wiring employed - now altered), the pick-ups adjusted and the motion oiled, off she went, sweet as a nut. The tender bufferbeam had a horrid gap in it to accommodate a Kadee coupling in its centre (shouldn't these be fixed below the beam, not in the centre?), but we soon soldered in a new piece and fitted a vacuum standpipe. The offside valve gear has the expansion link fixed back to front (had I commissioned this, I would have requested it be put right), but we left this alone. The loco was also a bit 'nose-up'; cured by inserting a washer under the back end of the chassis.

So, what a splendid loco now. The kit itself must cost around £130.00, then there's the cost of the wheels/motor, not to mention the price for building/painting it. Is this sort of bargain typical of ebay? Do 'commissioners' of models they now no longer want, regularly lose so much money (as must have been the case here, because the loco generally was well put together and beautifully painted and weathered, and far superior to a Bachmann equivalent)? I ask because ebay is a total mystery to me. 

 

 

Here's another of Mr West's recent ebay purchasers. This K3 is not so good, but it was quite cheap. It's an old Wills body on a newer SE Finecast chassis. Again, after a few tweaks and some TLC, off it went. The plan might be to build a replacement body, because the chassis runs really well now.

 

 

Another West ebay purchase at far less than the cost of the bits. This East Coast Joint Models/ABS L1 even has a Portescap motor. As with the others, a mechanical tweak here and there, a spot of oil and we had another beautiful runner. Whoever built it was in ignorance of the differences between the company-built and contract-built locos, but an hour's work saw a Westinghouse pump fitted, a new handrail curved around it, the cab windows glazed (still drying when I took the picture) and the incorrect (67782) numbers removed. Geoff has taken it with him to do more - lighting conduits, bufferbeam standpipes, etc. This is great fun - personal modelling on a loco (probably) costing less than its RTR equivalent. 

 

As I say, since my ignorance of ebay is monumental I have no idea whether examples like the three above are typical. All I can say is, as an observer, if they are then many folk must have money to waste, especially if things like this are sold on after being commissioned. Of course, I don't know individuals' fiscal circumstances, but these three are terrific bargains in my opinion, especially the first K3.

Does anyone else have similar 'good luck' stories of ebay? Or the opposite?

 

 

Finally, a gift from Geoff in the form of this Monty's Models' porter which he's painted so well. Many thanks my friend.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by Tony Wright

[teaky]

eBay is very much a mixed bag Tony.  There are some bargains and there some which are the exact opposite.  There is a section of RMweb for eBay.  A quick scan will give you a feel for what can be found there.

 

 

Compliments to Geoff on that porter.  I particularly like the light shine on his shoes/boots.  It would have been so easy to paint them matt like his uniform.

[micklner]

indeed check ebay madness total bonkers prices therein !!

[Richard_A]

Hi Tony , if the A1 is off in the bin could I buy the boiler from you? Or are you as I assume, just pulling our legs and will transform this into another fantastic model?

[Smiffy2]

Geoff West? Used to live in Sutton?

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony , if the A1 is off in the bin could I buy the boiler from you? Or are you as I assume, just pulling our legs and will transform this into another fantastic model?

It isn't mine to sell. If it were I'd only offer it to the type of chap who raises corpses and walks on water. I wouldn't tackle it at all. 

 

Geoff has taken it back with him. He looks at this thread so might comment and/or get in touch with you.

[Barry Ten]

I'd say one of the hazards of buying kit-built locos over ebay (or indeed, in general) is that unless the seller has specified things in detail, it's hard to know how it will run on another layout. "Good runner" is one of these terms that will mean different things to different people, and then you get into questions of what minimum radii the model will cope with, how it will deal with gradients, track undulations and so on.

 

Even being able to test run a model in a shop is no real guarantee as you're still probably only looking at a straight run up and down a length of track. It will give an idea if the model is a total dog, but the real test won't come until it's asked to perform on a real layout, with all the imperfections entailed.

 

I've only bought one kit-built loco "over the internet" and it wasn't much of a bargain! It was a DJH S&D 7F, a year or two before the Bachmann version was announced and when the Gibson examples were reportedly hard to find. I was told it would run around 30" curves and "might have been built by Tony Wright". I believe it was from the 4mm layout owned by Julian Birley? In any case, I don't think it was ever Tony's handiwork. While it does run, and the chassis has been built to a good standard, it's still a little tight on my 30" curves. So one of the axles needs a little more side-play, but until now I haven't really had the confidence to dismantle the valve gear, although I feel more positive about tackling it now.

 

I also bought three pre-grouping GWR prototypes from the sale of a collection hosted by my local model shop. In this case, I could examine all the models carefully and give them a test run in the shop. I also had a no-quibble offer of returning them if I turned out not to be happy. Here's one of the batch, an Aberdare class:

 

 

I also acquired an Armstrong goods and a Taff Vale A class.

 

Each model came in its own beautifully made wooden box, and although the models were all in superb condition, I had a feeling they'd been built quite some time ago, and perhaps only rarely used.

 

The Aberdare is built and painted very neatly although very much a no-frills model. All three locos run satisfactorily, although with quite a high current draw, which I think might be down to the age of the motors. One day I'll remove the bodies to see what's underneath, and get an idea of how easy it would be to substitute more modern motor/gearbox combinations.

 

 

 

[Andy Reichert]

I'd say one of the hazards of buying kit-built locos over ebay (or indeed, in general) is that unless the seller has specified things in detail, it's hard to know how it will run on another layout. "Good runner" is one of these terms that will mean different things to different people, and then you get into questions of what minimum radii the model will cope with, how it will deal with gradients, track undulations and so on.

 

Even being able to test run a model in a shop is no real guarantee as you're still probably only looking at a straight run up and down a length of track. It will give an idea if the model is a total dog, but the real test won't come until it's asked to perform on a real layout, with all the imperfections entailed.

 

I've only bought one kit-built loco "over the internet" and it wasn't much of a bargain! It was a DJH S&D 7F, a year or two before the Bachmann version was announced and when the Gibson examples were reportedly hard to find. I was told it would run around 30" curves and "might have been built by Tony Wright". I believe it was from the 4mm layout owned by Julian Birley? In any case, I don't think it was ever Tony's handiwork. While it does run, and the chassis has been built to a good standard, it's still a little tight on my 30" curves. So one of the axles needs a little more side-play, but until now I haven't really had the confidence to dismantle the valve gear, although I feel more positive about tackling it now.

 

I also bought three pre-grouping GWR prototypes from the sale of a collection hosted by my local model shop. In this case, I could examine all the models carefully and give them a test run in the shop. I also had a no-quibble offer of returning them if I turned out not to be happy. Here's one of the batch, an Aberdare class:

 

shill131.jpg

 

I also acquired an Armstrong goods and a Taff Vale A class.

 

Each model came in its own beautifully made wooden box, and although the models were all in superb condition, I had a feeling they'd been built quite some time ago, and perhaps only rarely used.

 

The Aberdare is built and painted very neatly although very much a no-frills model. All three locos run satisfactorily, although with quite a high current draw, which I think might be down to the age of the motors. One day I'll remove the bodies to see what's underneath, and get an idea of how easy it would be to substitute more modern motor/gearbox combinations.

 

I would suggest first replacing the magnets in any older open frame motors with a stack of the inexpensive and widely available neodymium ones. The current draw should drop dramatically, and the torque (an hence slow running) improve. You may then not need any further changes.

 

Andy

Edited April 21, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[Tony Wright]

I'd say one of the hazards of buying kit-built locos over ebay (or indeed, in general) is that unless the seller has specified things in detail, it's hard to know how it will run on another layout. "Good runner" is one of these terms that will mean different things to different people, and then you get into questions of what minimum radii the model will cope with, how it will deal with gradients, track undulations and so on.

 

Even being able to test run a model in a shop is no real guarantee as you're still probably only looking at a straight run up and down a length of track. It will give an idea if the model is a total dog, but the real test won't come until it's asked to perform on a real layout, with all the imperfections entailed.

 

I've only bought one kit-built loco "over the internet" and it wasn't much of a bargain! It was a DJH S&D 7F, a year or two before the Bachmann version was announced and when the Gibson examples were reportedly hard to find. I was told it would run around 30" curves and "might have been built by Tony Wright". I believe it was from the 4mm layout owned by Julian Birley? In any case, I don't think it was ever Tony's handiwork. While it does run, and the chassis has been built to a good standard, it's still a little tight on my 30" curves. So one of the axles needs a little more side-play, but until now I haven't really had the confidence to dismantle the valve gear, although I feel more positive about tackling it now.

 

I also bought three pre-grouping GWR prototypes from the sale of a collection hosted by my local model shop. In this case, I could examine all the models carefully and give them a test run in the shop. I also had a no-quibble offer of returning them if I turned out not to be happy. Here's one of the batch, an Aberdare class:

 

shill131.jpg

 

I also acquired an Armstrong goods and a Taff Vale A class.

 

Each model came in its own beautifully made wooden box, and although the models were all in superb condition, I had a feeling they'd been built quite some time ago, and perhaps only rarely used.

 

The Aberdare is built and painted very neatly although very much a no-frills model. All three locos run satisfactorily, although with quite a high current draw, which I think might be down to the age of the motors. One day I'll remove the bodies to see what's underneath, and get an idea of how easy it would be to substitute more modern motor/gearbox combinations.

Barry,

 

Though my memory is crumbling, I cannot recall ever building an S&D 2-8-0 (though I did get one running for Modellers Mecca way back in the last century). Anyway, all my work is signed and I've never built anything for Julian Birley as far as I can recall. 

 

The Aberdare looks superb by the way - an excellent buy.

 

Speaking of excellent buys (or not), a chap (now a friend) from Canada came over to see me today as part of his holiday, bringing with him a bit of a tale of woe in the form of a very expensive RTR A4. At over 2,300 Canadian dollars, it was a retirement present to himself. His layout has a minimum of 30" curves, and it's DCC. What a disappointment to find all it did was stutter and short out. He contacted the proprietor to be told to run the loco in the dark and 'see where it sparks'. Other than that, no after-sales advice/service at all. Perhaps over 3,000 miles distance means who cares? I examined it and found that the frame-mounted guard irons (which shouldn't be there anyway post-1957, which this model represents) were fouling the bogie wheels. So were the bogie-mounted guard irons. The cylinder drain cocks (which were also too long) also caught the bogie wheels on curves. The sandpipes also touched the drivers from time to time. So, off with the superfluous guard irons, bend out the bogie ones, shorten the cylinder drain cocks (they now need reattaching, such was their flimsy fixing, but that'll be done back home) and shorten the sandpipes slightly. Result, now a splendid runner, but should such an expensive item need the attention of a 'loco doctor? I ruined the celebration, of course (as I always do), by pointing out that the nameplates were fixed too low and the front numberplate had the wrong style of '6'! 

 

 

 

On another matter, the scratch-built Ivatt 'Flying Pig' mentioned earlier in these pages is now painted. My most grateful thanks to Mike Edge for bead-blasting off the years of muck. Because it doesn't have the tablet-changing apparatus, it's not really suitable for the M&GNR. However, a glance through the fantastic 'Book of' the class by Irwell reveals that 43127 was shedded at New England (and Spital) in the '50s/early '60s, so a trip out on the main line might not be out of the question, especially as it went to Retford in 1960 (where I saw it). So, here she is heading a secondary express through Little Bytham. Painting was my usual Halfords car acrylic satin black over red primer. Weathering is yet to be applied, but I find a loco like this fascinating. Originally started by someone long ago in the mists of time, I made the chassis go, added the valve gear and completed it. 

 

Returning to the theme of picking up bargains, this loco is an excellent example of this. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Tony Wright

[Focalplane]

Buying expensive locomotives across the atlantic can be a real trial.  Even taking one across the Atlantic to be worked on can be a real trial, so your visitor has my full empathy.

 

I did have one really good experience though.  Keen to own a modern RTR Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 I contacted various outlets in the US with inquiries about the then forthcoming Broadway Limited model (there is also one by MTH, just to confuse).  One outlet which no longer seems to exist not only offered me a good price and reasonable shipping, but also promised to check the running of the locomotive before shipping.  The latter was the trump card.  Sending locomotives back and forth becomes an expensive pastime.

 

The Daylight eventually arrived and was tested.  A good runner, the DCC worked as it should and the sound was, well, as correct as I would know it to be, having only seen old films of 4449 (remember Tough Guys, starring Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas?) and modern day running of the same preserved locomotive.

 

Meanwhile I had dropped off an old Japanese brass Balboa Daylight with a model shop in Calgary to have it worked on.  They have yet to return it and I have to admit I have more or less given up hope I will ever see it again.  Now I am retired there is no chance that I can hammer on a door and demand satisfaction.

[peach james]

Good on you.

 

I know it might seem repetitious but in my view a 'younger' generation has to keep the craft of personally making model railway things alive. If the mainstream hobby just becomes RTR-based/RTP-based, then the future (though suiting many, I suppose) will be rather boring, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yes, the new technologies will offer a fantastic opportunity for those who are willing to exploit them (and have the abilities to do so), but metal-forming/shaping, soldering, making things work electrically/mechanically and traditional craftsmanship skills must still have a place. Or do they? 

 

During a recent talk I gave, I suggested how 'easy' it might be nowadays to 'build' in OO, say, a model of the S&C main line in BR days. If woodworking skills were a problem there are many excellent firms who offer a general/bespoke service. Peco track could be used and its ease of laying shouldn't be beyond even the most clumsy. Many of the traditional-style buildings/structures are available RTP and most of the locos/rolling stock are available RTR. Even working signals are now available. If the owner couldn't make things for whatever reason, the speed at which such a project could be built professionally would be extremely rapid. 

 

'Progress' indeed, but I'm still much more impressed (and always will be) by blokes/girls really having a go themselves. Just what you're doing, Barry. 

 

Hi...Pot here !

 

(well, actually, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13244-long-marton-sc/page-1 )

 

So, yes it is fairly near possible to Plonk & Play the S&C.  That being said, there is a lot of time of mine spent in what _I_ want the railway to model.  I`m not frankly, that interested in having a dead scale model in P4.  What I am interested in doing is having a close scale model of the whole railway, and with operational signaling.  If I want to be an engine driver, I have a 3 1/2" Britannia I can go get steam up with, and _drive_.  I enjoy making the scenery, and enjoyed what I have done of making card buildings for Long Marton.  I have built a couple of kits (DJH starter kits) when I was quite young (14 or so), and I have built some coaches more recently.  (oh, and a steam railway engine, and some other machining projects).  There is still a huge amount of different skillsets required to build a model such as Long Marton, ranging from the woodworking, wiring, electrics, electronics, computer programming, mechanical hand skills, modelmaking, lighting, casting, plastercasting, foam work...  so, plonk and play it might be, but it still needs some skills !

 

James

[jrg1]

It isn't mine to sell. If it were I'd only offer it to the type of chap who raises corpses and walks on water. I wouldn't tackle it at all. 

 

Geoff has taken it back with him. He looks at this thread so might comment and/or get in touch with you.

You might be able to dismantle it by using a paint stripper heat gun-I have set up a soldered assembly inside a brick hearth, and literally soaked it in heat to melt the solder.  

[peach james]

 

 

Meanwhile I had dropped off an old Japanese brass Balboa Daylight with a model shop in Calgary to have it worked on.  They have yet to return it and I have to admit I have more or less given up hope I will ever see it again.  Now I am retired there is no chance that I can hammer on a door and demand satisfaction.

 

I'm a bit far, but I think you will find there is someone closer to Calgary to go knocking on doors...I do visit there on occasion, but I have no idea when the next time will be.  (last time was 2 years ago).

 

James

[AndyID]

My plan to needing 2 extra feet, 2.5 actually. A land grab into the basement corridor.

Under test to see if it stays flat.

 

Other benefit is it makes the duck under very easy as the floor there is 17 inches lower than in my train room.

 

Something similar to Tom's arrangement.

 

The garage under our house has 10 foot ceilings, so I went vertical and built an elevated railway room within the garage. There are trays on wheels under the railway room for additional junk storage. The railway space in the room is 12 feet by 12 feet, some of which projects out over the hood of my wife's car. (The panels under the layout are hinged to allow access under the baseboard.)

 

The framework suspended above the freezer will support reversing/storage loops. The framework leaning against the freezer will also support another set of reversing/storage loops on the other side of the door to the railway room (above the red tool chest).

 

The layout plan is basically a U-shaped double track with "off stage" storage loops with junctions to a high level terminus and a low level terminus.

 

[Tony Wright]

You might be able to dismantle it by using a paint stripper heat gun-I have set up a soldered assembly inside a brick hearth, and literally soaked it in heat to melt the solder.  

The problem is the solder (and there are great lumps of it) melts at a higher temperature than the white metal. 

[jwealleans]

You have to wonder how the builder managed to assemble it in the first place.

[gr.king]

I've probably bored you with the tale of the struggle I was having building my Little Engines whitemetal J11 body, and the increasing doubts about my soldering skills and the condition of my iron, until......I realised that I had picked up 140C solder rather than 70c solder at the start of the process. I was more than half-way through the build by then and it HAD all gone together without any of the castings melting. The excess solder had been fiendishly hard to scrape or file off of course. I finished the job with the correct solder and it all turned out fine. So it can be done, with the aid of blind stupidity.....

[Tony Wright]

I've probably bored you with the tale of the struggle I was having building my Little Engines whitemetal J11 body, and the increasing doubts about my soldering skills and the condition of my iron, until......I realised that I had picked up 140C solder rather than 70c solder at the start of the process. I was more than half-way through the build by then and it HAD all gone together without any of the castings melting. The excess solder had been fiendishly hard to scrape or file off of course. I finished the job with the correct solder and it all turned out fine. So it can be done, with the aid of blind stupidity.....

The awful A1 was mainly assembled with electrical flux-cored solder (there were still traces of the resin). This melts (I believe) at a higher temperature than modelling solders. 

 

In answer to Jonathan's point above, it was assembled, but large bits of the castings had just melted away!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I still have very satisfactory whitemetal wagons running, assembled solely with ersin multicore solder from the days of my youthful ignorance, before model railway club and being shown a better option. Not quite sure how I did it now, but as above, stupidity clearly found a way. By coincidence I only yesterday found an ancient instruction sheet for such a whitemetal kit and it recommended adhesive assembly by Araldite or similar, and 'solder if experienced'. No hint that the experience that was particularly relevant encompassed the knowledge that there was a low melting point option.

[coachmann]

In 1962, I was so hacked off trying to solder whitemetal with a large copper iron heated on the grate and no flux that I turned to building loco bodies in styrene sheet. Five years later I befriended George Mellor (GEM) and he told me about electric soldering irons, low melt solder and liquid flux.....................Revolutionised my hobby!

Edited April 22, 2015 by coachmann

[Theakerr]

Focal plane, there is a good chance i will be in the Calgary area later this summer.  PM if you want to try to take it further

[geoff west]

Geoff West? Used to live in Sutton?

Must be another Geoff West as ive never lived in Sutton

[Smiffy2]

I don't blame you.

 

I used to know a Geoff West who is a train fanatic years ago - we met again recently at the wake of an old friend. I think he's got my Dublo Castle...

[Tony Wright]

Just out of possible interest, a comment on a splendid operating day on Little Bytham yesterday when two dear friends and I ran through the sequence. 

There are some 96 train movements amongst the 34 train sets to fulfil the sequence and in over three hours of operation there was just one fault attributable to the layout/stock - a derailment of a single wagon in the fiddle yard. There was another derailment caused by coupling incompatibility (why are some ostensibly compatible proprietary couplings set at different heights?), but any other 'faults' were down to my operating incompetence, which I must work on. 

 

I mention the above not to boast, but to illustrate what should be a 'minimum' standard of layout/stock performance in my book. Yes, once again my prototype-length trains proved too much for some modified RTR locos, but the use of these is really unnecessary with so many kit-built ones available. 

 

When I see poor-performing layouts, I can forgive (to some extent) operator problems because of unfamiliarity of the controls/lack of practice (though not so much on an exhibition layout), but not problems caused by poor trackwork/wiring/stock etc. 

 

What do others think on this matter, please?