Wright writes.....

[Flood]

Look at it this way - the Board decides to appoint a particular person to a very senior and influential position in the company - he no doubt has his 'supporters' on the Board and they are able to persuade other Board members that he is ideal for the job and will deliver what they want (less expensive engines for a start).

 

The new man draws up various proposals - in this case for a range of standard engines which will be simpler, cheaper to build, and more cost effective than his predecessor's and in some instances some of his predecessor's engines will be rebuilt to the new standard designs as they are suitable for that purpose and it would be cheaper to do that than building from scratch.  You're a Board member - not a train spotter - the man you have just appointed is offering you a plan which he says promises will save money.  You're not really concerned with the detail of how he will do that provided he stays within his allocated budget and delivers what he has promised so you agree to his plan.

 

What he then does in detail is not your immediate concern provided he is delivering what he said he would deliver and if you question any of his decisions he will give you a detailed, fully costed, and rational explanation  - and don't overlook the fact that you appointed him so he must be alright because your judgement is impeccable; isn't it?

And if things do go wrong then the board members find someone to blame so they can carry on running everything.

 

The end result, as told by history, is not a surprise really.

[Focalplane]

Good to see more kit building examples!  My own projects are coming along nicely but the LMS 4F is stalled while I wait for an additional brass lubricator kit.

 

So I did something today I said I would not do - I opened the box of the next kit before finishing the current one.  This is a David Andrews' LMS Compound 4-4-0 and I decided to start on the tender chassis.  This is my first chassis constructed using the Poppy's Loco Builder Box.

 

 

I should say I have no financial interest in Poppy's, this post is simply a positive recommendation.  The photo shows just the tack soldered chassis, since then the spacers have been fully soldered and the wheels added and tested on both track and a mirror.  The centre axle is free to move up and down and the bushes are not soldered to the frames.  A screw "stop" will be added later once the right amount of vertical play is determined.

 

With the bushes opened out slightly with a broach the wheels run well without lubrication and the tender would probably do a circuit of a typical 7mm test track with one push - very free running.  It will be interesting to compare the two identical 3,500 gallon Fowler tenders as I progress - the Connoisseur tender, featured below, came together very nicely - it just needs buffer paint, coal, tools and coupling.  And I may have to put the speaker inside it as well.

 

 

Looking at the photo (taken in available light with an iPad Mini as my "good" camera is in France) I see a number of additional issues that have to be addressed - does anyone else use photos to see such things?

[Tavy Man]

I'm still waiting for them that know to tell me the identity of the V2s that went to the SR. Why, because I can then have an excuse for running one on SOSJ.

It was the Crewkerne up Platfrom canopy that was partly demolished by some of the failing loco's brake gear bits flying off. 

Thanks for the photo's Tony and I agree about the very high standard of the paint job on the Coronation Set

These Pilots seem to have 'the knack'. My previous layout (that was a 'real' layout) was sold, before we moved north, to a Pilot in East Grinstead and when we dismantled the thing and took it to his place, low and behold the house (Victorian Villa that he was totally refurbishing) was littered with all sorts of loco's. This included a 5" gauge Brit in a fireplace hearth. He had built this along with a pile of others having taught himself how to do model engineering. His 'garage' was actually a fully equipped engineering workshop; amazing!  

 

Phil

 

60908 & 60917 were two that were allocated to Nine Elms for the period although I think there were probably one or two more.

[lanchester]

OK, fair enough. I NEARLY didn't post the comment about the Comets, or rather was tempted to post a long rambling post to caveat everything. The principle of a stress concentration point was the common aspect I was trying to highlight when considering the P2 axle failure. Modern railway locomotive axles also feature a stress-relieving groove adjacent to the wheel seat which is another aspect that will be incorporated into 2007's crank axle design.

Since we are currently running the two themes of stress fatigue and Thompson-bashing, may I pull them together? I think I'm right in saying that at least some of Thompson's carriages had 'sharp' corners to the windows (not the loos, obviously), and that the stresses thus set up and not dissipated made them more vulnerable to rot as a result? 

[glo41f]

"We ran the layout for several hours, and everything (apart from me) worked perfectly"

 

Ah we have found the weakest link! 

 

The streamliner set looks magnificent and is a credit to the builder. Well done sir!

 

I was at the Huntingdon show over the weekend. Very high quality layouts in the main top of which was Fencehouses totally brilliant in 2mm scale. The trains worked well and the coaches all were close coupled. However the adjacent 4mm layout which was club effort had the awful hook and bar types with the consequent huge gap between the coaches. No need for this these days surely?

 

Martin Long

[asmay2002]

  Obtaining the decision/permission  to virtually destroy some of the finest Locomotives on the LNER fleet, which at the time were not more than 10  years old.

 

it is utterly ludicrous to suggest that these were some of the finest  locos in the LNER fleet.  In 1942 C J Allen (who was an LNER employee) wrote that they were one of the less successful Gresley designs.  They were a class of mobile accidents which were very lucky that they never killed anybody.  They looked great but they were a liability.  Are you seriously suggesting that a hard headed railway management know less about what they were doing than lineside spotters in possession of no facts other than hearsay? 

[gr.king]

I suspected that Tom's "Coro" wheels looked P4-ish in profile when we had a squint at them after derailment at Nottingham. Little wonder the set baulked at the code 100 ladder crossovers between the two fiddle yards on Grantham.

 

Stunningly nicely modelled coaches though. The compound-curved glazing in the beaver tail is very cleverly done and the bright strips are exceedingly neat.

[micklner]

Since we are currently running the two themes of stress fatigue and Thompson-bashing, may I pull them together? I think I'm right in saying that at least some of Thompson's carriages had 'sharp' corners to the windows (not the loos, obviously), and that the stresses thus set up and not dissipated made them more vulnerable to rot as a result? 

 

Square corners created rust by the water lying in the corners, hence radiused corners were then used.

[gr.king]

The P2 bickering continues I see. Why is it that some people just can't let it drop?

[micklner]

it is utterly ludicrous to suggest that these were some of the finest  locos in the LNER fleet.  In 1942 C J Allen (who was an LNER employee) wrote that they were one of the less successful Gresley designs.  They were a class of mobile accidents which were very lucky that they never killed anybody.  They looked great but they were a liability.  Are you seriously suggesting that a hard headed railway management know less about what they were doing than lineside spotters in possession of no facts other than hearsay? 

 

Everybody has their opinion , no idea why you haven't printed the whole of my comment as it was actually set as a question as to why the rebuilds happened, when you actually read the whole post. No idea what Trainspotters has got to do with anything I doubt if they were at any of the relevant Board meetings. Hard facts would be very interesting to read.

 

Tony in post 9332 sums up the general/most heard opinion on the P2's uses good or bad and I agree with his views.

[Clive Mortimore]

Of course all this Gresley v Thompson posturing stuff became irrelevant with the modernisation plan (time to argue) with all its wonderful pilot scheme diesels (bundle after class) which didn't include the much closeted Deltics (handbags at dawn).

[Focalplane]

It has finally dawned on me that all those LNER class letters referred to the wheel arrangements. Yes, I was slow to catch on, never having had much interest in the region, though I did go to Doncaster Works once.

 

But why the particular letters? Can anyone answer this?

 

I have always liked the Southern Pacific Lines nomenclature:

 

MT - Mountain 4-8-2, e.g. MT4

M - Mikado 2-8-2

C - Consolidation 2-8-0

P - Prairie - 2-6-2

T - Ten Wheeler - 4-6-0

M - Mogul - 2-6-0

SP - Southern Pacific - 4-10-2 (first loco of this arrangement built by SP)

 

But one exception to the rule

 

GS - either Golden State or General Service - 4-8-4

 

The latter included the GS-4 Daylights, capable of running all day between San Francisco and Los Angeles at speeds up to 85mph with 20 passenger cars over 470 miles. Top rated speed this was often exceeded according to folklore. A truly spectacular locomotive that had a flawless record. Fortunately one, 4449, is preserved and operational.

[Tony Wright]

It has finally dawned on me that all those LNER class letters referred to the wheel arrangements. Yes, I was slow to catch on, never having had much interest in the region, though I did go to Doncaster Works once.

 

But why the particular letters? Can anyone answer this?

 

I have always liked the Southern Pacific Lines nomenclature:

 

MT - Mountain 4-8-2, e.g. MT4

M - Mikado 2-8-2

C - Consolidation 2-8-0

P - Prairie - 2-6-2

T - Ten Wheeler - 4-6-0

M - Mogul - 2-6-0

SP - Southern Pacific - 4-10-2 (first loco of this arrangement built by SP)

 

But one exception to the rule

 

GS - either Golden State or General Service - 4-8-4

 

The latter included the GS-4 Daylights, capable of running all day between San Francisco and Los Angeles at speeds up to 85mph with 20 passenger cars over 470 miles. Top rated speed this was often exceeded according to folklore. A truly spectacular locomotive that had a flawless record. Fortunately one, 4449, is preserved and operational.

I don't know if I can answer your question Paul with regard to the wheel arrangement/class designation on the LNER but it was by far the most logical of any of the Big Four companies. 

 

A, of course, was 4-6-2 (Pacific), starting with tender locos, beginning with the GNR-built pair then the NER-built ones. Anticipating further development, Gresley deliberately left A3 and A4 vacant in 1923. Then it was the various tanks, etc. 

 

The arrangement for all the pre-Grouping classes was GNR first, then GC, then GE, then NE, then H&B (though some NE locos were listed between), then NBR, then GNoSR and then M&GNR. Quite where the Met' 0-6-4s fitted in, I'm not sure, since there was only one class. Obviously, some companies didn't have some of the wheel arrangements (no 4-6-0s of GNR-origin, for instance), so, in the case of the pre-Grouping 4-6-0s, the GCR was first. Some arrangements were only tender locos (4-4-0 and 4-6-0) and many were just tanks. 

 

LNER-built locos then took the next available class designations (until Thompson insisted that ALL his locos would take the lowest possible classification, thus demoting older engines to the back - A1 to A10, B1 to B18, etc).

 

So...

 

A; 4-6-2

B; 4-6-0

C; 4-4-2

D; 4-4-0

E; 2-4-0

F; 2-4-2

G; 0-4-4

H; 4-4-4

I; left blank because of potential mix up with 1

J; 0-6-0

K; 2-6-0

L; 2-6-4

M; 0-6-4

N; 0-6-2

O; 2-8-0

P; 2-8-2

Q; 0-8-0

R; 0-8-2

S; 0-8-4

T; 4-8-0

U; 2-8-0 - 0-8-2

V; 2-6-2

W; 4-6-4 (or, really, 4-6-2-2)

X; miscellaneous single-drivers

Y; 0-4-0

Z; 0-4-2

 

U and W represented respectively only one class of (tender) locos. R, S and T also represented only one class respectively of (tank) locos. 

 

Though logical, where the system could cause confusion is with the sub-divisions involved. By this I mean that, say, the difference between an O4/1 and and O4/3 was whether it had a water scoop or vacuum brake, yet A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 were different classes. In the case of the A4s, which had (at times) different chimneys and towed different tenders, there were no sub-divisions.

 

I hope this helps (and I hope it's all right, since I've just done it from memory). 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Tony Wright

[jrg1]

Since we are currently running the two themes of stress fatigue and Thompson-bashing, may I pull them together? I think I'm right in saying that at least some of Thompson's carriages had 'sharp' corners to the windows (not the loos, obviously), and that the stresses thus set up and not dissipated made them more vulnerable to rot as a result? 

The windows had right angles-water collectors, ideal for corrosion.  Later altered to radiused curves.  I do believe that Thompson picked the P2s to impose his authority, and blundered.

[Theakerr]

Re the Plain George P2, cannot read the number but there are actually 2 photographs in"Titans of the Track LNER".  I would guess both photos are somewhere on the ECML with both having four tracks and one appearing to be just down from where the slow joins the fast.  Unfortunately I cannot tell when the book was printed because it is old and may be such that the copyright is over.  Thus, I could scan a copy and post on the thread.  And Yes Mersey, will scan and send for your personal info only etc.  

[t-b-g]

I have read an eye witness account of a P2 derailing in traffic.

 

2001 once ran South of Doncaster on a stopping passenger train as a running in turn and came to grief shunting a horse box on or off the train (I can't remember which) in Bawtry goods yard. Somehow the ancient sleepers in the yard pointwork, (which didn't usually see anything bigger than a GNR 0-6-0) didn't like the big loco trying to straighten the rails out and gave way in protest.

[Headstock]

Meanwhile.......

[unclebobkt]

  ... .

I always say its better to be lucky than good, maybe that's true of pilots!?  ... . 

 

         Was it not gnl.. N. Buonaparte who said: 'I do not ask if a general is good but how lucky he is.' - and he should know! 

 

       

[Tony Wright]

I have read an eye witness account of a P2 derailing in traffic.

 

2001 once ran South of Doncaster on a stopping passenger train as a running in turn and came to grief shunting a horse box on or off the train (I can't remember which) in Bawtry goods yard. Somehow the ancient sleepers in the yard pointwork, (which didn't usually see anything bigger than a GNR 0-6-0) didn't like the big loco trying to straighten the rails out and gave way in protest.

Though not a P2, anecdotal (first-hand) evidence at Little Bytham tells of an A4 getting 'stuck' on one of the tight roads in the goods yard. It was just out-of-shops, and was being used on no more than the daily pick-up to Grantham, indulging in some shunting. Apparently, because everything was so 'tight', the drivers locked on the sharp leads (welcome to model railways!). An engine had to be sent to pull it off the point.

 

Sadly, the witness has died but the story's true. And, the A4 had 'spread the road'! 

[Class O]

Though not a P2, anecdotal (first-hand) evidence at Little Bytham tells of an A4 getting 'stuck' on one of the tight roads in the goods yard. It was just out-of-shops, and was being used on no more than the daily pick-up to Grantham, indulging in some shunting. Apparently, because everything was so 'tight', the drivers locked on the sharp leads (welcome to model railways!). An engine had to be sent to pull it off the point.

 

Sadly, the witness has died but the story's true. And, the A4 had 'spread the road'! 

On similar lines Dad told me about  an A3 being used to collect some fish vans off the docks using a route that was totally  unsuitable for anything but pilots, they had to send the fitters to get it back to the shed. He told me many stories of locos going where they shouldn't......

[LNER4479]

I recall an incident one night at a depot where a Class 47 was sent up a little-used siding to retrieve a coach that had been parked there some time. The yard supervisor's log for the evening read something like this:

 

23.20 47123* derailed on No.4 road. Breakdown called (*let's say - can't remember the number!)

00.30 Breakdown on site

01:15 47123 re-railed

01:40 47123 derailed again on No.4 road. Breakdown re-called

01:55 Breakdown back on site

02:30 47123 re-railed again. Proceeding at walking pace on No.4 road. Breakdown gang remaining on site

02:35 47123 derailed on No.4 road

03:10 47123 re-railed

03:15 47123 derailed

03:40 47123 re-railed

03:45 47123 derailed. Abandoned on No.4 road.

 

The coach in question remained where it was, comprehensively blocked in by a multi-derailed Cl.47 which now required full Ultrasonic test of all axles!

 

Derailments in sidings quite common. Those on a mainline are altogether more worrying!

[St Enodoc]

I recall an incident one night at a depot where a Class 47 was sent up a little-used siding to retrieve a coach that had been parked there some time. The yard supervisor's log for the evening read something like this:

 

23.20 47123* derailed on No.4 road. Breakdown called (*let's say - can't remember the number!)

00.30 Breakdown on site

01:15 47123 re-railed

01:40 47123 derailed again on No.4 road. Breakdown re-called

01:55 Breakdown back on site

02:30 47123 re-railed again. Proceeding at walking pace on No.4 road. Breakdown gang remaining on site

02:35 47123 derailed on No.4 road

03:10 47123 re-railed

03:15 47123 derailed

03:40 47123 re-railed

03:45 47123 derailed. Abandoned on No.4 road.

 

The coach in question remained where it was, comprehensively blocked in by a multi-derailed Cl.47 which now required full Ultrasonic test of all axles!

 

Derailments in sidings quite common. Those on a mainline are altogether more worrying!

If it hadn't been the middle of the night it would have made a nice training exercise for the BD gang.

[The Stationmaster]

I recall an incident one night at a depot where a Class 47 was sent up a little-used siding to retrieve a coach that had been parked there some time. The yard supervisor's log for the evening read something like this:

 

23.20 47123* derailed on No.4 road. Breakdown called (*let's say - can't remember the number!)

00.30 Breakdown on site

01:15 47123 re-railed

01:40 47123 derailed again on No.4 road. Breakdown re-called

01:55 Breakdown back on site

02:30 47123 re-railed again. Proceeding at walking pace on No.4 road. Breakdown gang remaining on site

02:35 47123 derailed on No.4 road

03:10 47123 re-railed

03:15 47123 derailed

03:40 47123 re-railed

03:45 47123 derailed. Abandoned on No.4 road.

 

The coach in question remained where it was, comprehensively blocked in by a multi-derailed Cl.47 which now required full Ultrasonic test of all axles!

 

Derailments in sidings quite common. Those on a mainline are altogether more worrying!

 

I had one a bit like that - but not so many times - at Llandarcy one December night with a 45 ton RTC which had run away through the traps due to a dodgy handbrake.  Getting it rerailed was a bit of a game and we couldn't reach it with a coupling so I told the Shunter to use a fishplate in to lengthen the coupling and make sure the engine kept pulling and to scotch the wheels before the coupling slackened.  I'm in the shunting frame (former signalbox) on the 'phone to Control saying 'Rerailed 22.30, NWR 22.35 and we might as well say BDVans departed 22.45' as the engine hauled the tank car up the loop past the 'box, followed by a shout and a rumbling noise as the coupling slackened, the fishplate dropped out, the handbrake was still no use, and back it rolled to land on the deck about half an inch from where it had been before being rerailed.  

 

So the end of the conversation with Control became 'Derailed again at 22.35, Vans still on site, Driver wants relief'.  I won't tell you what I said to the Shunter.

[Allegheny1600]

I have read an eye witness account of a P2 derailing in traffic.

 

2001 once ran South of Doncaster on a stopping passenger train as a running in turn and came to grief shunting a horse box on or off the train (I can't remember which) in Bawtry goods yard. Somehow the ancient sleepers in the yard pointwork, (which didn't usually see anything bigger than a GNR 0-6-0) didn't like the big loco trying to straighten the rails out and gave way in protest.

Huh!?!

What the bloomin heck did they expect!?!

You can't blame the Mikado for that!

Many's the time I've read of class 40's coming to grief in sidings - large engines just aren't any good for shunting with, no matter who designed them.

An engine spreading the rails on a stretch of main-line is a different matter altogether.

[t-b-g]

Huh!?!

What the bloomin heck did they expect!?!

You can't blame the Mikado for that!

Many's the time I've read of class 40's coming to grief in sidings - large engines just aren't any good for shunting with, no matter who designed them.

An engine spreading the rails on a stretch of main-line is a different matter altogether.

 

I don't think that anybody did blame the loco for that one, least of all me. I just remembered the incident after Tony W mentioned that real examples of P2s coming to grief by derailing had not been forthcoming.

 

I am a huge P2 fan and I am looking forward to seeing Prince of Wales even more than I looked forward to seeing Tornado. Lots of people are still around with memories of Peppercorm A1s in service but you have to be pretty ancient (apologies to those in that age bracket) to remember a P2 in original form, so somehow that makes it more special.