Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

This seems unlikely to me. Engineers stock often carried ladders to make access easier

 

 

The DE32xxxx series was for coach transfer to the engineers by BR. Most of these coaches were with drawn and transfer by the LNER. These would have had 9XXXXX number where the second digit represented the owning area:

 

NEA - 0

SA GN - 4

SA GC - 5

SA GE - 6

SSA - 7

NSA - 8

 

The third digit was used to denote the department operating the wagon:

 

Engineers - 0

Loco Dept - 1 

Workshops - 2

Stores - 3

 

Some of the vehicles later got DE prefixes to the numbers.

 

The only photo of a service GN 45' coach I have is an ex- brake composite numbered DE 961511 an branded 'MP E Ipswich'

Thanks Bill,

 

Does anyone have a picture of how the 'DE' lettering was arranged, please? Was it big 'E', then small afterwards? Or big 'D' then small afterwards? Thus Eng Dept No. 96XXX? 

 

Apologies for being obtuse on this matter 

[Headstock]

Thanks Bill,

 

Does anyone have a picture of how the 'DE' lettering was arranged, please? Was it big 'E', then small afterwards? Or big 'D' then small afterwards? Thus Eng Dept No. 96XXX? 

 

Apologies for being obtuse on this matter 

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerdepartmentalcoach/h39cd8ce5#h39cd8ce5

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerdepartmentalcoach/h39cd8ce5#h24dfae9c

[billbedford]

More complicated than that.

 

 

None the small steps under the centre double doors.

[2ManySpams]

More complicated than that.

 

GNR 45' BC 3.png

 

None the small steps under the centre double doors.

Brakes very visible in that and the other previous shots.

[Woodcock29]

Tony

 

Thanks for your comment above re only one brake gear sprue. Looks like I'll have to try to use the brakes that are set at EM/P4 distances for one set of wheels on each bogie - they're very fragile and I have already broken two of the brake shoes off just removing them from the sprue.

 

Might I suggest that you add the two handrails on the end of the roof on the end with steps.  They're not mentioned in Bill's notes with the kit but are quite evident in photos (only very faint in the photo of the Departmental vehicle provided by Bill above) and are shown in Nick Campling's Historic Carriage Drawings Book..

 

Andrew

[Tony Teague]

Guys,

 

Just for information. At Railex, Graham Baker of GRAMODELS showed me a resin model of an LSWR 42' third in 4mm He is also planning the 45' composite and the Bk 3rd and Bk Compo rebuilds. It looked very nice.

 

Bill

Bill

Do you know what diagram these will represent; I may well be interested as I have a Southern layout (mentioned very quietly so as to avoid attracting attention...)

Tony

[Headstock]

More complicated than that.

 

GNR 45' BC 3.png

 

None the small steps under the centre double doors.

 

Yes it is more complicated than that, seeing that the paperwork regarding departmental stock of this vintage is virtually non existent. I managed to track down a number for my own needs, by identifying the trains, tracing the stock back to the depot of origin, and then locating a friendly source of photography. In this particularly case it is not apparent whether the diagram being modelled is the same as that seen in the original photo. Without a good photo of this type of carriage taken in departmental service, or somebody coming forwards who has preserved the information, your guess is as good as mine. Railway modellers mostly make it up don't they?

[Tony Wright]

Tony

 

Thanks for your comment above re only one brake gear sprue. Looks like I'll have to try to use the brakes that are set at EM/P4 distances for one set of wheels on each bogie - they're very fragile and I have already broken two of the brake shoes off just removing them from the sprue.

 

Might I suggest that you add the two handrails on the end of the roof on the end with steps.  They're not mentioned in Bill's notes with the kit but are quite evident in photos (only very faint in the photo of the Departmental vehicle provided by Bill above) and are shown in Nick Campling's Historic Carriage Drawings Book..

 

Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

 

I've got Nick Campling's book, so I'll take a look. I've also got David Jenkinson's book on carriage drawings. Though the actual one is not illustrated, typical end details are shown. The shape of the end handrails' arc differs from the drawing in the kit. 

 

Tony. 

[richard i]

Totally away from the discussion being had but......

Has anyone else noticed how this thread, even though it was started two years after the peterbough North one is steadily catching it up in terms of pages, contributions and viewings. I do follow both, however, i just feel this is a small piece of statistical proof that people are more interested in what is made over what is bought, as great as that can look. This is not to start some in fighting - DO YOU UNDERSTAND BOYS THOWING PAPER AEROPLANES AT THE BACK OF THE CLASS!

When will this thread suppase Great Northern's? It is of little consequence but the mathmatician in me has tried to work it out just for hoots.

Will i be right? Anyone want to place your bets?

Richard

[Clive Mortimore]

Totally away from the discussion being had but......

Has anyone else noticed how this thread, even though it was started two years after the peterbough North one is steadily catching it up in terms of pages, contributions and viewings. I do follow both, however, i just feel this is a small piece of statistical proof that people are more interested in what is made over what is bought, as great as that can look. This is not to start some in fighting - DO YOU UNDERSTAND BOYS THOWING PAPER AEROPLANES AT THE BACK OF THE CLASS!

When will this thread suppase Great Northern's? It is of little consequence but the mathmatician in me has tried to work it out just for hoots.

Will i be right? Anyone want to place your bets?

Richard

Hi Richard

 

This thread is different to Peterborough North, this one has a tendency to meander all over the place, even some bloke putting pictures of how he built his diesels, so will attract all sorts of bods to put their point of view across. Where as Gilbert's is a bit more focused on his layout and if it starts to diverge from its main route there suddenly appears some new photos of more LNER pacific locos which gets the masses all excited.

[Focalplane]

One of my favourite CDs is of Alison Krause and her back up blue grass band, Union Station, recorded in concert.  One fan in the audience cries out (to Alison) "I love you!"  Another cries out "I love you more!"  At which point the bass player intervenes:  "Guys, this is not a race!"

[Tony Wright]

One of my favourite CDs is of Alison Krause and her back up blue grass band, Union Station, recorded in concert.  One fan in the audience cries out (to Alison) "I love you!"  Another cries out "I love you more!"  At which point the bass player intervenes:  "Guys, this is not a race!"

I couldn't agree more, Paul. 

 

Though it's nice to know that a thread is popular, it's an irrelevance to me whether it's more (or less) popular than another. 

 

What does 'delight' me is the number of folk who post, often sending this thread off in all manner of directions. Indeed, when I was away for a few days (I don't have an I-phone, I-pad or any other means of accessing electronic media other than this home computer), there was more activity in my absence. Which, should tell me something if nothing else. 

 

Another delight is the number of actual visitors now to LB. Today was no exception, and neither will be Saturday, Monday and Tuesday. My elder son has sorted out the dodgy Fulgurex motor switch (thanks Tom), though I'd still like Tony Gee to have a look at it. We were, thus, able to run a full complement of trains, over all the routes. 'Virtual' visitors are one thing, 'appreciating' something without actually seeing it work, but, no matter how popular (with justification) threads might be, it would all be meaningless to me unless visitors came (and keep on coming, again and again) to operate my railway. To run, and run, and run it, and to run their own models on it as well. I can then show them the work of others, give them a controller and watch as an A1 belts through on the Up Yorkshire Pullman at 90 mph!

 

That's what I'm interested in with regard to my personal modelling; very good friends enjoying themselves.

 

I'm also deeply touched by the generosity of visitors or good folk I communicate with. For instance, John Isherwood of Cambridge Custom Transfers has made a set of correct engineers' transfers for the Mousa Models kit I've just completed for the ex-GNR Brake Third. Thank you so much, John, for your generosity. I assume you'll then put them in your range for others to use. In a serendipitous moment, in sorting through the collection for the latest widow, I came across a part-built arcane carriage of some sort, looking very sorry for itself with busted suspension, no floor, missing ventilators and a bent roof. No matter, I can't resist a sad little model, so I've completed it; to go with the engineers' brake, painted black and to be finished using John's transfers. I have no idea which railway it first saw the light of day on, but it looks all right to me.

 

Finally, with regard to the latest collection; I'm sorting through the kit-built locos right now. Apart from having not been used at all in 15 months and having spent a winter in a garden shed, with just a bit of a clean, oil and a tweak here and there, those I've looked at so far run very well. I'll post a list in due course, but I wonder who might be interested in items like an L&Y rail-motor, both manifestations of the Hughes 'Dreadnought', a wee Highland Ben, L&SWR and S&DJR 0-4-4Ts, NB 0-6-0s, a Furness 0-6-2T, plus loads of other items of motive power way, way beyond anyone's RTR radar.  

 

If nothing else, assisting widows (and who wouldn't?) and featuring stuff which an individual has made themselves is what this thread should be about. Not competition. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Tony Wright

[DougN]

Your generosity,  Tony, in invites and time given to families of Modellers who have gone from us, is a light to how the modelling community is broad wide and generous!  I appreciated the invitation  2 years ago, just wish I could have got it to work. 

 

I see the same sorts of generosity locally, I think it shows the general humanity of the modelling community with care and time. We all share experiences, and learn from each other. I have great friendships with local modellers face to face and those in the UK. Which with out the internet, discussion boards such as this would not exist other wise. 

 

On models passed on. We all collect things for our enjoyment but one thing that I am aware of is we have models and tools from those no longer with us. It is a nice way to remember friends. For example I have a GW wheel press that came from a local modeller who I tend to remember because of it. Another I have a 12 wheel pullman which reminds me of him, OK it is a RTR but that is OK too.

 

I guess when we all shuffle off we would like to see our models go to those that appreciate and run them.  

[Tony Wright]

Your generosity,  Tony, in invites and time given to families of Modellers who have gone from us, is a light to how the modelling community is broad wide and generous!  I appreciated the invitation  2 years ago, just wish I could have got it to work. 

 

I see the same sorts of generosity locally, I think it shows the general humanity of the modelling community with care and time. We all share experiences, and learn from each other. I have great friendships with local modellers face to face and those in the UK. Which with out the internet, discussion boards such as this would not exist other wise. 

 

On models passed on. We all collect things for our enjoyment but one thing that I am aware of is we have models and tools from those no longer with us. It is a nice way to remember friends. For example I have a GW wheel press that came from a local modeller who I tend to remember because of it. Another I have a 12 wheel pullman which reminds me of him, OK it is a RTR but that is OK too.

 

I guess when we all shuffle off we would like to see our models go to those that appreciate and run them.  

Thanks Doug,

 

I, too, have models built/once belonging to deceased dear friends. I treasure them more than anything I've built myself.

 

Though I didn't seek out being 'Honest Tone's of Little Bytham, Model Railways bought and Sold', I do, where possible, ensure that models built by those now on a higher plain go to homes where'll they be enjoyed, and, more importantly, used.

 

I firmly believe that I'm a member of the largest demographic group in railway modelling right now. That is of age range 60-80, mostly retired, children gone, mortgage paid off, some spare room and (one hopes) some spare cash. Though we remember railways when they were more interesting (and wish to model them), that comes at a cost. That cost being much nearer our demise than being at our peak. In my case, that translates into being much slower at making models, less able to see exactly what I'm doing, less-than-nimble fingers, a total inability to remember where I put something down, often just seconds ago, or why a vital picture or book I was looking at just a day ago has vanished or just being plain kn8ckered even though it's still light!

 

Another cost (in fiscal terms) is that as my generation naturally dies off (too fast and too many if recent reports are indicative), then who'll be interested in the models we leave behind? Only folk of the same generation I would think in the main. This has probably been going on with each successive generation, but this current one (being essentially the baby boomer one) is the last generation big into railway modelling. Just walk around any model railway show to see what I mean. So, we have a 'law of diminishing returns' situation in my view. I have no illusions that my collection will ensure my children will be left with plenty of dosh. Though it's insured for over 100 thousand pounds, going through what it would cost to replace, counting myself as a professional model-maker (which I was) and asking a professional painter to paint well over 150 locos and some stock, then (with all that track, signals, buildings, etc) perhaps 200 thousand pounds would be more realistic. However, I have no illusions as to it making anywhere near that, nor should I. It's real value to me is right now. To be happy (in the main) with what I've built and to be able to enjoy the railway with dear friends. What price that?

 

I'd say, given ten more years (at most) any BR steam/diesel transitional models will have little resale value, especially kit-built items. That might well apply to the majority of railway models as well, whatever their time-period.  

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

On a brighter note, if I out live you all,  I may inherit the world's biggest collection of model railway equipment.... yes!

[ROSSPOP]

Oh no you won`t !!!

 

i`m planning an Anglo Saxon Raiway Modellers cremation........ Coffin of open framed modules lined with Sundeala Board (remember that??) joined with old coach bolts. External lost wax fittings from Laurie Griffin and all my favourite kit built models inside with me !!!!!!!! 

[bbishop]

Bill

Do you know what diagram these will represent; I may well be interested as I have a Southern layout (mentioned very quietly so as to avoid attracting attention...)

Tony

The 42'3rd and the 45' tri-comp were built with either plain or semi-elliptical roof shape. Plain 3rds could have Fox 7' or 8' bogies; s-e only 8' bogies. Tri-comps only 8' bogies.

 

In about 1909, 27 Bk 3rd - Bk comp sets were created. The ducket could either be at the end of the vehicle or at the compartment end. Gordon Weddell's book assumes the s-e coaches had the compartment end ducket and the plain coaches either type of ducket. Given the complexity so far, at least the roof and ducket type were the same in both coaches; the only variety being the Bk 3rd could have a 7' bogie and the By comp an 8' bogie.

 

Withdrawal occurred throughout the 1930s.

 

Graham has produced a plain roof 42' 3rd and the parts for an end ducket Bk 3rd, and is planning the equivalent tri-comp and Bk comp.

 

It's all in Gordon Weddell's first book, but you must refer to the Appendix. What wonderful complexity for such mundane vehicles.

 

Bill

[Focalplane]

Tony, cod liver oil capsules!  I stopped taking them a couple of years ago and restarted just two months ago because my finger joints were really stiffening up.  I am pleased to say that things are definitely improving (though some mornings I can't remember where I put the container of capsules).

 

On a more serious note, it seems to me that it makes sense to write up a list of posthumous directions as to what and how my models should be disposed of.  I have one plan which actually concerns a model I don't yet own, simply because it hasn't been made.  This will be a rebuilt Royal Scot named after my father's First World War regiment, the King's Regiment, Liverpool (46132).  I plan to enjoy it while I am alive and then donate it to the regiment's museum together with various memorabilia I am collecting concerning my father's service in 1917/8.  Sadly I don't have either his Military Cross or the dress pin that went with it so the "Scot" will be the next best thing.

 

As a reminder of my father's involvement I have a framed print of the locomotive at speed through Tamworth, the original painted by Philip Hawkins.  It hangs above my layout along with another print by Philip Hawkins of Summer Saturday at Snow Hill.  This print also has a strong connection with my father - he used to take me to see the engine at the Up end of Platform 7 and this probably more than anything else generated my interest in, and love of, steam railways.

 

Here are links to the two prints:

 

Tamworth Memories

 

Summer Saturday at Snow Hill

[t-b-g]

A couple of friends of mine collect Hornby Dublo 3 rail, alongside their main model railway activities.

 

The number of people leaving the ranks of 3 rail collectors is certainly not being matched by the number starting collections and so as each time a collection comes onto the market, there are fewer people wanting to snap them up and prices are generally falling.

 

When you look around any model railway exhibition, especially the more specialist ones like EXPO EM or Scaleforum, the average age of people there seems to creep up as the same people go every year and they keep getting older. Even the average age of the traders is on the up as there are not many youngsters in that group either.

 

The Gauge O Guild shows or model engineering shows seem to me to have the highest age groups of all. How many youngsters are learning how to use machine tools to build their own working engines? I bet the number is tiny.

 

A number of shows have stopped having "concessions" for those over a certain age as almost nobody would pay the full entrance fee. Perhaps they should start giving "concessions" to the under 60s!

 

In many ways, the gradual increase in the average age of those following the hobby doesn't really matter very much as long as we accept that in the future, demand for what we may pass on to others will be limited.

 

As long as we enjoy ourselves and continue to gain satisfaction and personal pleasure from what we do, for as long as we can, then that is probably as much as we can ask for.

 

Tony G

[peach james]

On a brighter note, if I out live you all,  I may inherit the world's biggest collection of model railway equipment.... yes!

 

There have to be some younger modelers out there- I seem to think Tony had a 13 or 14 year old posted up thread...(and that's not me...even if I am solidly under his demographic)

 

Someone asked about the Model Engineering side- I've a bit more experience there, and you are right in a lot of ways...the skillsets are likely going to go down substantially.  Mind, we keep on saying that about the jobs, and they seem to be doing OK at finding individuals to fill them.  

 

James

Edited June 3, 2016 by peach james

[Nelson Jackson]

There are many "youngsters" in this hobby. You just need to know where to look. I know in Northern Ireland that the age range of people interested in model engineering and model railway is healthy and there's no concern of any hobby dying any time fast.

[bbishop]

 

 

A number of shows have stopped having "concessions" for those over a certain age as almost nobody would pay the full entrance fee. Perhaps they should start giving "concessions" to the under 60s!

 

Tony G

 

 

So just as I reach "concessionary" age, exhibitions make me pay full whack and those under 65 get the concession.  Typical!

 

Bill

[t-b-g]

So just as I reach "concessionary" age, exhibitions make me pay full whack and those under 65 get the concession.  Typical!

 

Bill

 

I only suggested it as I am just under 60!

[Tony Wright]

There are many "youngsters" in this hobby. You just need to know where to look. I know in Northern Ireland that the age range of people interested in model engineering and model railway is healthy and there's no concern of any hobby dying any time fast.

Nelson,

 

I'm sure there are many youngsters in the hobby, but not at the shows I go to; at least not as a significant proportion of those who attend. To pick up on one of Tony Gee's points, many shows no longer do a concession for pensioners, though there is usually still one for the under-14s. Up to two years ago, this was unprecedented with regard to most shows. There used to be the post-65 concession for OAPs; re-instate it and few shows would see any return. Last year, I was on the door at the York Show. There was no concession for the older. If there had been, I reckon over 75% would have claimed the cheaper option. 

[Tony Wright]

 

I've just about completed the first of the Mousa Models' carriages, making it into a Tool Van in an engineers' train. As mentioned, John Isherwood of Cambridge Custom Transfers produced a set of appropriate transfers for me. It's listed as Sheet LB01, and contains branding for various vehicles - Mess & Tool Vans, Staff & Tool Vans, Instruction Cars - and various districts including Peterborough, Doncaster, Darlington, Whitemoor, Hull and South Lynn. There are also notices regarding signals and telegraph, prohibition with regard to going over humps and a branding for Outdoor Machinery. There is a heck of a lot. 

 

These transfers are really very good, carried by the thinnest of films. Thank you John. 

 

I asked John to produce the actual number, rather guessing as to what it might actually be, though it's certainly in the ex-GNR pool. 

 

So a very good carriage kit, finished off with some very good transfers. What more could one ask? Painting was Halford's red primer and then satin black, applied so that it gave a semi-matt surface (not too much paint and not too close). The roof was painted by sable with Humbrol Matt 67 enamel. I'm considering weathering it.

 

A complete report will be published in BRM. 

 

One thing I didn't use was the glazing provided. I'm sure those with the requisite skills can do it properly, but, after fiddling trying to fit a couple of individual panes without getting any evidence of adhesive, I gave up. I just used thin Plastiglaze, glued from the back (with glazing PVA). Yes, it does give deeper window reveals but at least there's no glue evident.  

Edited June 3, 2016 by Tony Wright