Wright writes.....

[Mallard60022]

Yup, I'd vote for no more DC V DCC discussion as it seems to be gettiung a little tetchy. More information on how to operate prototypically will be good and also discussion on anything other than the power supply that moves the things.

Ref Erry.

[Jamiel]

I suspect that DCC is rather like other changes in the hobby (or any hobby). I started with DCC so don't see any of the issues other modellers have mentioned, perhaps because I am not expecting my layout to operate in the way it might have done had I not used DCC. I am sure there are things that are missed when people try DCC compared with the more hands on experience of DC.

I do however have my own dislikes of changes to the hobby, even in the few years I have been modelling (eight years I think, discounting my youth). Personally I look at buildings that have been either 3D printed or lazer cut, and find they have a quality that is alien to me. They are beautiful, amazingly detailed, but there is (usually) a quality that doesn't appeal compared to working with brick sheets and plasticard.

 

In another hobby of mine, collecting live recordings (bootlegs, radio sessions, limited edition live albums) I see a similar choice people make about quality. In every measurable way recordings from the sound desk are superior, yet there are collectors who prefer the audience recordings. They do not have the definition in the sound, but they do capture what it is like to be in an audience, the echo of the hall, the cheering (and unfortunately the talking). Personally I do not like audience recordings, but there are some who really do.

This is no reflection on those modelling using 3D print and and lazer cut materials, or collectors of audience recordings, it is just that when you start doing something in depth, I think you make an imprint on yourself as to how you like things to be done, and that changes the character of the rewards you get.

Jamie

[Clearwater]

David,

 

The spring is not fixed to the loco; neither is the split pin, other than by the pressure of the spring and its being contained through the hole in the drag box.

Many thanks Tony - much appreciated

 

David

[chris p bacon]

You ask

Look back at the problems I have had with DCC, then read that somebody with the experience of Mike Edge have had the same problems and then tell me where you perceive my "lack of confidence" and "embarrassment of lack of knowledge".

 

I've highlighted the relevant part

 The one noticable thing within the club though is that all the electrical fault finding on the DC layouts is carried out by those that run DCC, it's quite clear that the choice for DC comes down to a lack of confidence in things electrical. I don't see a problem with that as everyone has their own talents but I can only presume that the criticsm of DCC is because of embarrassment of lack of knowledge which is human nature.

 

 

 

Yup, I'd vote for no more DC V DCC discussion as it seems to be gettiung a little tetchy. 

Good idea Ref, why don't we discuss the reliability and running of P4......

[Black Marlin]

I would like, in view of the many carefully reasoned comments left above, to do something regrettably uncommon in this degraded age: I should like to amend my views and modify my original law.

In fairness to myself, my error was in not fully thinking through the expression of that law; rather than some cataclysmic oversight on my part, my failure was to insufficiently contextualise. So let's try again, and this time I will copy the Inestimable Sir to whom this thread belongs. I will explain by example.

When I was at Glasgow demonstrating, my demonstrations were of locomotive detailing practices and techniques. This is part of my journey towards becoming what Tony refers to with perfect fairness as a 'real modeller'. I was painting cab backheads, adding crew, adding real coal and so on - a small thing, but mine own, as the saying goes*. I had with me a Duchess and I bought from Tony a ROD 2-8-0. It was the ROD that I worked on first.

I have a hundred or so locomotives to so detail and I quite agree that there should be a uniformity of quality. And I absolutely refute the notion of being happy with having done something badly. But I do have to prioritise my modelling efforts. To that end, my feeling is that I should concentrate first on those locomotives where the work is most evident. It is easier to see that the coal is real in the tender of a locomotive waddling past at a scale 10mph than it is to spot a similar feature in a pacific doing 90 or the ton. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter; it means that I view the act of modelling a railway as having to factor in the operation of that railway and how it affects the appearance of the stock on it. The impression of the train, not just the locomotive, must be considered. Which means that while additional weathering work may well pay enormous dividends on a heavy freight locomotive that's going to be slogging round and in view for a long time, perhaps one needn't devote the same time to upgrading a factory-weathered pacific if its only duties involve it hurtling past too quickly for extended study.

With regards to Sir's reminiscences, he has touched upon another point that frankly I hadn't considered (more fool I!). There will be people for whom the act of modelling is an act of personal reclamation: "This is what I saw and therefore this aspect must be modelled, because in so doing I model not just the object but the circumstance, and I recapture the experience I once had". I envy such folk. As someone who has never - I confess this apologetically - even seen a pacific locomotive in steam, my modelling must take a different form, that of imaginative reconstruction rather than intimate recollection. I wonder if there's a connection between that fact and the disparity between my layout and Tony's, in that his is a real place and mine is entirely fictitious?

Yet another thing to ponder...

Gavin



*Not to be confused with Daedalus's labyrinth on Crete, which was a small thing but Minoan...

[t-b-g]

You ask

 

I've highlighted the relevant part

 

 

Good idea Ref, why don't we discuss the reliability and running of P4......

 

Perhaps when we get to see this steam era layout with 50 wagon freights and expresses doing 90mph with 12 on. Until then, we are probably better off keeping off the subject.

 

Apologies if I misunderstood your post. I thought you first sentence was about the club and the rest more general. I am still sensitive (as if!)  from being called arrogant and ill informed.  

[Daniel W]

On a less DCC related note, I did mention to Tony on Saturday that I would try and pop my head in from time to time and so I present my humble effort. This is a Parkside Kit for a Midland Brake-van, that will at some point be painted up into Departmental Black, along with a stripped down Hornby Shark. This is my first attempt at doing so many handrails and they came out fairly well. Not 100% sure about the lamp irons though and the roof has not been glued on yet for those wondering. Obviously it pales in comparison to much of what is posted here, but I am quite pleased with it.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by DeathWatch

[Headstock]

Hoorah for building things,

 

after a productive afternoon tidying up the garden I managed to get the roof painted on an LMS vanfit.

[asmay2002]

What a load of you know what.  The first thing you do with DCC sound is to turn down the volume, this makes it only audible in normal (scale) distances and is far more realistic.  Perhaps you might want to avail yourself of the latest Locoman sound chip with the prototype of your choice.  After trying many different sound chips, and also being a steam loco driver and railway sound recordist, it would have to produce the most realistic sound of any I have heard. 

Sound recorded close up sounds nothing like sound at a distance (the higher frequencies fade quicker). Attenuation of sound depends on frequency according to Stokes law.  See for example http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_4/2_4_1.html  which gives a table of attenuation of sound in air for different frequencies. What you hear at distance is definitely NOT just what you hear close up with the volume turned down no matter how good the reording is. Small speakers give you better higher freqeuencies than lower ones so you get the exact opposite of what the scale effect should be. 

[The Johnster]

What a load of you know what.  The first thing you do with DCC sound is to turn down the volume, this makes it only audible in normal (scale) distances and is far more realistic.  Perhaps you might want to avail yourself of the latest Locoman sound chip with the prototype of your choice.  After trying many different sound chips, and also being a steam loco driver and railway sound recordist, it would have to produce the most realistic sound of any I have heard.  And as for tinny sound, you obviously haven't heard the latest speakers that are in use.

 

Frankly all this DCC vs DC and sound vs non-sound seems to be put up by those seeking excuses why they don't have it, rather than those who are experienced with both DC and DCC and the opportunities they provide.  I have modelled layouts with both DC and DCC, and I prefer DCC, my preference, so please stop with all the ill-informed comments about DCC problems when nearly every post I have read on this thread about it's problems is by people who are not familiar with it. 

 

I really appreciate seeing all the hard work and modelling skill displayed on this thread, but the arrogance of the DC vs DCC and sound vs non-sound really turns me off.  I know there are some declared luddites on this thread, I am sure I am one of them in certain aspects, but please respect the fact that we all have different preferences for modelling and it is a broad church.  Trying to forward an argument about which system is better than another, when most don't seem familiar with both sides of the argument, is just displaying arrogance.

 

Yours in modelling

Tony

 

'

 

trw, it is your absolute right which I will defend to the death to have an opinion which is not the same as mine, but you do not seem to have read, or if you have then you have failed to comprehend, my post eariler in the thread pointing out my views on the subject of the DC/DCC debate; I believe I used the the phrase 'horses for courses'.  But sound travels in the way and at the speed that it travels, no more and no less, and while you are welcome in my book to describe that undeniable fact of physics as 'a load of you know what', to quote Scotty, 'ye canna change the laws o' physics (Jim)'.  The laws 'o physics also preclude being able to hear anything more than a tinny little noise from a tinny little speaker at a ridiculously low volume, and any speaker carried aboard a 4mm scale model, or any other scale up to the Gauge 1 level, is going to be tinny and little.  

 

I will not discuss this with you further, and we must agree that we differ.

Edited March 9, 2017 by The Johnster

[wagonbasher]

Hoorah for building things,

  I managed to get the roof painted.

Very nice, I can almost see it....

 

Andy

[Torper]

Of course, it could be argued that a loco that at least is attempting to make a realistic sound (and in most cases making a pretty good shot at it) is more realisitic than a loco that make no sound at all, or worse, a strange grinding noise or the whirr of an electric motor in what purports to be a steam boiler.

 

When i watch a model railway, I'm not under any illusion that it's the real thing and so i'm not worried about what the attenuation or whatever is.  And anyway, when I'm using my own layout I'm not a spectator, I'm the driver.

 

DT

[chris p bacon]

Perhaps when we get to see this steam era layout with 50 wagon freights and expresses doing 90mph with 12 on. Until then, we are probably better off keeping off the subject.

Sadly the owner has dropped off this world,  The layout has been donated and the majority of the stock is still within the family but spread around the country. The reason I was there was to help his widow dispose of his workshop and other modelling items.

[Headstock]

Very nice, I can almost see it....

 

Andy

 

The nature of the LMS van I'm afraid, like a tennis court perched on top of an escarpment.

[Theakerr]

All the argument about DCC vs DC is pointless anyway, battery power is the way to go.  Ducking and running!

[westerner]

No don't duck, I was just about to say the same thing. The great thing about battery power no wiring at all and no track cleaning. I saw a demo at the Manchester show in very small locos, I was VERY impressed

[t-b-g]

I know a chap who does radio control railways in scales from 7mm to the foot to 12" to the foot. He is visiting tomorrow and bringing a further selection of his radio controlled 7mm scale locos.

 

He has certainly cracked the technology and is planning a garden railway free from wires, track cleaning and voltage drops.

 

I have seen his stuff at work and it is superb. Smooth, powerful, reliable and very responsive.

 

Mind you, he has to get the operation working well on the full size stuff.

[t-b-g]

Sadly the owner has dropped off this world,  The layout has been donated and the majority of the stock is still within the family but spread around the country. The reason I was there was to help his widow dispose of his workshop and other modelling items.

 

That is sad and I am sorry to hear it. I hope that whoever has the layout now will carry it on to completion.

[westerner]

If I remember correctly the demo I saw was in OO9.

[Tony Wright]

May I try and bring some sort of 'closure' to the recent debates, please?

 

Though I've never built a layout for myself where DCC is the control system, I have helped in the construction and running of a few. Because of some of the problems I've personally encountered which (probably because of my dimness) I don't understand and cannot fully-fix, I prefer to stick with what I know - DC. I have seen (and operated) DCC systems which have worked very well (and operated some DC systems which don't), but I prefer to be self-reliant with my own railways.

 

For some to get personal and suggest I'm (and others are) assumptive, ill-informed and arrogant is not fair in my view. I have had experience with DCC and I prefer to avoid it, even using high-quality decoders. That is my choice.

 

As for the OO/P4 discussion, as I've said earlier it's been aired already. My recent observations at shows suggest it doesn't work well enough for me (other than St. Merryn, which worked beautifully). In fairness, that's been my observation with some OO systems as well. What concerns me (again, having already said it) is that if modellers of a very high-calibre cannot get P4 to work properly, then what does that tell me?

 

I've also heard several times of main line steam-outline P4 layouts operating the likes of what Roy Jackson and I run - Pacifics running fast on full-length trains, complex propelling movements and no derailments. My problem is, I've never seen any. 

 

Active debate is to be encouraged and I hope it will continue. That said, I always take more notice of a person's point of view when he/she has made something which works which we all can see; whatever its control system or whatever its gauge. Thankfully, this thread is full of examples of that.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by Tony Wright

[New Haven Neil]

I quite like the idea of radio control.  I earn a crust fitting it to these, which are neither DC nor DCC, but water vapour, like the real ones.  I lined that one myself, and it has on-board sound, coming from exhausted water vapour.

 

 

 

[coachmann]

...... I always take more notice of a person's point of view when he/she has made something which works which we all can see;.......

Plenty of DCC experimental work to be seen here (with Youtube examples) from someone who doesn't give up easily....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111644-oswestry-in-4mm-7mm/page-4

Edited March 9, 2017 by coachmann

[CF MRC]

I think if you are going to go DCC then you need to go the whole hog. My friend Steve Baldock, who has forgotten more about making real steam engines than most will ever know, has turned his hand to S7 and produced some MOK loco kits with added extras.

 

 

Tim

Edited March 10, 2017 by CF MRC

[LBRJ]

That is amazing

 

It really kinda works as small scale reality, don't it!

 

I half expected the fireman to climb down and start greasing her up! 

[micklner]

Beautiful model, as the sound it "just hangs in the air", it simply sounds artificial.