Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

 The junction after the crossing to the left is the GNR to Boston-the original route to the North.  

For clarity of course, Boston is South from Lincoln. North is through Central Station, under the photographer's feet and onward....

[Tony Wright]

I'm nearing the finishing line with my Hornby/Comet Patriot, which is now undergoing running trials. Affter

some adjustment to the loco-tender coupling it seems to be settling down nicely, and it's pleasingly smooth

and quiet, and more than powerful enough for the usage it'll get on my layout.

 

patriota.jpg

 

patriotb.jpg

 

I've still a few bits of lining to finish (I'll trim back the lining where it goes around that steam pipe

on the boiler) as well as some small painting, glazing and detailing jobs. Tonight I put the nameplates

on, which was very satisfying after the length of time they've been staring at me from the bits box.

 

I'm quite tempted by one of these for a future project - should be a doddle, shouldn't it? Two sets

of valve gear, articulated, outside frames ... does anyone else get bad ideas after holidays?

 

ngg.jpg

 

Alastair

That's very neat work Alastair,

 

You are to be congratulated. You've turned an 'ugly duckling' into something rather pretty.

 

I think what appeals to me most about a project like this is 'the journey', so to speak. The 'destination' is well worth that journey, but how much 'easier' might it have been to just buy a Bachmann RTR 'Pat' and, if you desired, get someone else to renumber/rename/detail/weather it? Easier, of course, but far less satisfying in my view, and who ever suggested that model-making was 'easy'. The fact that, in many cases, it isn't is even more rewarding (I hope I'm finding that out with my making of LB's point rodding!)

 

You have something unique, all your own work and you should be justifiably be proud of it. 

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

the photo provides the answer. The crescent crank fits around the L shaped one and lines up with the rodding to the points (whose spacing is set by the rollers)  and to the lever frame. And yes, it took me some time to work that out originally.

 

Setting up the levers and the point rodding in a logical sequence must have been quite a challenge.

Thanks Jol,

 

I've examined the picture and (even though I'm dim), I think I understand. 

 

I've made-up some more lengths of rodding and cranks and installed them last night. With over 50' (probably more) to make and fit, I'm more and more convinced that an 'impression' is what I'm trying to achieve. I'm sure when it's all finished (assuming I can still see), a signalling engineer will throw his hands up in horror at how nothing about it could 'work', but that's not the point. I showed what had been done to a friend yesterday (the first independent view so far) and, viewing it overall, he said it looked most effective. That, I believe, is the key to 'detail' like this. One is aware of its presence, but not aware of every crank, stool or rod. 

 

One thing, even with just a few (more) bits done, now I'm far more aware of its LACK of presence. 

[t-b-g]

Tony,

 

the photo provides the answer. The crescent crank fits around the L shaped one and lines up with the rodding to the points (whose spacing is set by the rollers)  and to the lever frame. And yes, it took me some time to work that out originally.

 

Setting up the levers and the point rodding in a logical sequence must have been quite a challenge.

 

I think you may have misinterpreted the photo Jol.

 

The crescent shaped crank is above the angle one rather than around it. These installations made great use of different heights and many cranks were stacked together so that one moving crank could pass above or below another. The links that attach the point rods to the cranks had varying degrees of height change built into them by including a reverse curve, visible in many photos.

 

My understanding is that there were just different shaped cranks made and that this particular place just happened to have each type represented. From an engineering point of view, a curved crank would have been stronger than a right angled one, which has a natural weak point at the centre pivot.

 

Somebody with more knowledge than I have will hopefully be able to tell us which railway companies used which type in what circumstances but I am getting out of my depth now!

[mullie]

In an ideal world is it best to install the cranks whilst laying track and before the layout is too developed? 

[t-b-g]

In an ideal world is it best to install the cranks whilst laying track and before the layout is too developed? 

 

It is certainly easier to work out where everything is going to go in advance and then to fit suitable bases for the cranks as you lay the track and ballast. That makes it so much easier to leave gaps in the ballast between sleepers just where you need them. Doing a drawing a little bit like the prototype diagrams posted by Micknich can be a big help too.

 

I don't know anybody who has actually fitted the cranks and/or rodding as the track is being laid but it might be worth trying to see if it makes the job easier.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thanks Jol,

 

I've examined the picture and (even though I'm dim), I think I understand. 

 

I've made-up some more lengths of rodding and cranks and installed them last night. With over 50' (probably more) to make and fit, I'm more and more convinced that an 'impression' is what I'm trying to achieve. I'm sure when it's all finished (assuming I can still see), a signalling engineer will throw his hands up in horror at how nothing about it could 'work', but that's not the point. I showed what had been done to a friend yesterday (the first independent view so far) and, viewing it overall, he said it looked most effective. That, I believe, is the key to 'detail' like this. One is aware of its presence, but not aware of every crank, stool or rod. 

 

One thing, even with just a few (more) bits done, now I'm far more aware of its LACK of presence. 

Tony,

 

I had two excellent books as a guide, Jack Nelson's LNWR Portrayed and Richard Foster's LNWR Signalling. I was also fortunate in knowing both Richard Foster and retired BR signal engineer Derek Smith who gave some invaluable guidance for what is a fictional layout based on real railway practice. I was delighted at a recent show when a retired signalman introduced himself and commented very positively on the point rodding layout. All I need now is to sort out some signal wire posts and pulleys 

 

Perhaps you have some pictorial records of the signalling infrastructure at LB to help, but I don't know if comparable signalling infrastructure books exist for the LNER.

 

Putting in the infrastructure details really brings, in my view, a layout to life. It may be that people don't particularly notice it as much as you will as the builder, but it really sets the scene and brings atmosphere to a layout. 

 

Jol

[St Enodoc]

Tony,

 

I had two excellent books as a guide, Jack Nelson's LNWR Portrayed and Richard Foster's LNWR Signalling. I was also fortunate in knowing both Richard Foster and retired BR signal engineer Derek Smith who gave some invaluable guidance for what is a fictional layout based on real railway practice. I was delighted at a recent show when a retired signalman introduced himself and commented very positively on the point rodding layout. All I need now is to sort out some signal wire posts and pulleys 

 

Perhaps you have some pictorial records of the signalling infrastructure at LB to help, but I don't know if comparable signalling infrastructure books exist for the LNER.

 

Putting in the infrastructure details really brings, in my view, a layout to life. It may be that people don't particularly notice it as much as you will as the builder, but it really sets the scene and brings atmosphere to a layout. 

 

Jol

I have a copy of a book called "Railway Signalling and Communications Installation and Maintenance, Second Edition", published for the LNER in 1946 (the first edition was published in 1940). It is based on a series of lectures given to S&T Dept staff in one of the LNER Areas (unfortunately it doesn't say which one).

 

It includes just about everything you ever wanted to know about signalling and communications equipment plus a whole lot more that you didn't even know you wanted to know.

 

There is a full chapter on "Ground Connections", which as well as dimensioned sketches of various components includes such things as working out where to place the compensators in a rodding run. Some examples of the arcane detail are:

 

- channel rodding comes in lengths of 18 ft 6 in or 15 ft, while tubular rodding comes in lengths of 16 ft.

- channel rodding rollers are 2.75 in pitch, while tubular rodding rollers are 2.5 in pitch.

- rodding bases come in three heights: 3.25 in, 6.25 in and 9.25 in from the bottom of the base to the centre of the crank.

- dimensioned plan of standard and economical facing point locks.

- rodding lengths are calculated so that the arms are in a central position at an ambient temperature of 50 deg F.

 

and much, much more!

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think you may have misinterpreted the photo Jol.

 

The crescent shaped crank is above the angle one rather than around it. These installations made great use of different heights and many cranks were stacked together so that one moving crank could pass above or below another. The links that attach the point rods to the cranks had varying degrees of height change built into them by including a reverse curve, visible in many photos.

 

My understanding is that there were just different shaped cranks made and that this particular place just happened to have each type represented. From an engineering point of view, a curved crank would have been stronger than a right angled one, which has a natural weak point at the centre pivot.

 

Somebody with more knowledge than I have will hopefully be able to tell us which railway companies used which type in what circumstances but I am getting out of my depth now!

Tony,

 

you are correct about the different height of the cranks and I perhaps phrased my wording badly. The crescent shaped crank does provide the correct alignment for the rodding and gives clearance and maintenance access to the joints between the rods and levers, which is what I was trying to say when I said "around the L shaped one".

 

Producing the rodding system for London Road No 2 signal box provided some interesting challenges and I learned a little about how the levers could be arranged. The use of the hand lever in the foreground, operating a point into the engine shed area came as a surprise, as it is so close to the signal box. However this was apparently common LNWR practice for sheds and yards and the advice came from several sources. Southwark Bridge Models (available from Roxey Mouldings) do a range of excellent etched hand levers of various types.

 

 

 

 

Jol

[micknich2003]

The LNER text book mentioned above is out of print, though Peter Kay did a reprint some years ago.

 

 The easiest sorce of ref is "Great Western Journal" No89, Winter 2014. The minor details may differ between the different railways, but the mechanics are the same world wide.

[glo41f]

I feel that "impressionist" point rodding is probably the best we can hope for in our small scales. One thing that I have never quite grasped (along with so many matters), is that frequently the rodding is shown bolted to timber which in turn lies in the ballast. Now the forces that atre involves with a longish run must be quite large despite the compensating that the runs incorporate, Why then does the timber stay put and not try and rotate with the forces applied? Again the timber is exposed to all weathers and would rapidly deteriorate so presumably S&T were out on renewals a lot of the time?  

[t-b-g]

Tony,

 

you are correct about the different height of the cranks and I perhaps phrased my wording badly. The crescent shaped crank does provide the correct alignment for the rodding and gives clearance and maintenance access to the joints between the rods and levers, which is what I was trying to say when I said "around the L shaped one".

 

Producing the rodding system for London Road No 2 signal box provided some interesting challenges and I learned a little about how the levers could be arranged. The use of the hand lever in the foreground, operating a point into the engine shed area came as a surprise, as it is so close to the signal box. However this was apparently common LNWR practice for sheds and yards and the advice came from several sources. Southwark Bridge Models (available from Roxey Mouldings) do a range of excellent etched hand levers of various types.

 

 

LR No2 SB.jpg

 

 

Jol

I see what you mean. I can understand why the point rodding on your lovely layout draws favourable comment as it really looks very good indeed.

 

I know for a fact that there were at least two patterns of compensators, one using straight cranks (though not right angles) and another using curved links. It is the sort of thing that you have to have developed a high degree of attention to detail to incorporate into a 4mm scale layout but it can be done if the builder has enough interest to want to do it.

 

There was a very good couple of articles by Steve Hall in MRJ on point rodding for his layouts while ago in issues 113 and 115 which covered the subject well. A friend of mine is developing some etches for 2mm scale components. I have seen some and it looks superb but rather him than me!

 

Tony

[coachmann]

I feel that "impressionist" point rodding is probably the best we can hope for in our small scales. One thing that I have never quite grasped (along with so many matters), is that frequently the rodding is shown bolted to timber which in turn lies in the ballast. Now the forces that atre involves with a longish run must be quite large despite the compensating that the runs incorporate, Why then does the timber stay put and not try and rotate with the forces applied? Again the timber is exposed to all weathers and would rapidly deteriorate so presumably S&T were out on renewals a lot of the time?  

The timbers to which the rodding is attached are themselves bolted to piles.

[micknich2003]

An interesting mix of round and channel rodding, and also concrete and timber stools, plus a concrete wire stake. May 1976.

[Bezzy Oppo]

Is this Gilberdyke Mick?

[micknich2003]

Is this Gilberdyke Mick?

No, it's somewhere up North, but I do have several I took at Gylberdyke.

[Mallard60022]

In an ideal world is it best to install the cranks whilst laying track and before the layout is too developed? 

That's me almost stuffed then..........

[micknich2003]

Crank attached on end of "Joint Timber".

[micknich2003]

An interesting Rodding Run", York Locomotive, 1909.

 

[sp1]

An interesting Rodding Run", York Locomotive, 1909.

YORK LOCOMOTIVE Roding run c1909.jpg

How did anyone ever remember what all those signals were for?

[micknich2003]

How did anyone ever remember what all those signals were for?

It's known as "Route Knowledge".

[sp1]

I know, but it's a lot more than responding to 'red, amber and green' that we are used to when driving a car....

[The Johnster]

Yes it is.  To extend the car analogy, think of your commute to work or any other road journey you regularly make.  Now, impose the requirement to know by heart the speed limit of every part of each road on your route, the braking distance and point in any weather conditions to each traffic light, junction, or upcoming speed restriction, the gradient of each up or down hill, and the loads you can take up or down them (on a 'traditional' railway this is the guard's job, as is the maximum speed the vehicles of your train are allowed to run at), the speed for each curve, the sighting of each signal, signpost, road traffic sign, or junction, by day or night including in fog or other conditions of poor visibility, allowing for a stopping distance of about a mile, and allowing for the point at which the rear of your train, which may be of a few hundred yards length, clears a speed restricted junction even when you can't see it by looking backwards out of the cab window because it's either on the other side of the train or obscured by curves, so that you can be sure that the rear vehicle does not exceed the speed restriction through the junction.  And it's easier nowadays than when that photo was taken.

 

Still wanna drive trains?

Edited May 21, 2017 by The Johnster

[jrg1]

Yes it is.  To extend the car analogy, think of your commute to work or any other road journey you regularly make.  Now, impose the requirement to know by heart the speed limit of every part of each road on your route, the braking distance and point in any weather conditions to each traffic light, junction, or upcoming speed restriction, the gradient of each up or down hill, and the loads you can take up or down them (on a 'traditional' railway this is the guard's job, as is the maximum speed the vehicles of your train are allowed to run at), the speed for each curve, the sighting of each signal, signpost, road traffic sign, or junction, by day or night including in fog or other conditions of poor visibility, allowing for a stopping distance of about a mile, and allowing for the point at which the rear of your train, which may be of a few hundred yards length, clears a speed restricted junction even when you can't see it by looking backwards out of the cab window because it's either on the other side of the train or obscured by curves, so that you can be sure that the rear vehicle does not exceed the speed restriction through the junction.  And it's easier nowadays than when that photo was taken.

 

Still wanna drive trains?

What happens when you don't-Durham Ox again, fifty years on

[polybear]

An interesting Rodding Run", York Locomotive, 1909.

YORK LOCOMOTIVE Roding run c1909.jpg

 

A mate on a steam tour (York - Scarborough and back, V2 Green Arrow IIRC) watched a fellow passenger (wearing a Railtrack dayglo jacket for full effect) having a go at the driver, demanding to know why he'd come in on Platform 6 (or whatever) - he should've come in on Platform 4....

 

Driver (restraining himself from wrapping the coal shovel round the bloke's head) calmly replies:

"Don't tell me - tell the signalman. He sets the points"

 

Said Kn*b was last seen heading for the signalbox...