Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

 

 

Hornby BSO 03.jpg

 

At least it saves me the hassle of making kits for them. What do others think of these latest RTR carriages?

 

 

A statement from The Peoples Popular Front for the Liberation of Kit Built Carriages.

 

'Scrap them'

 

 

Oppressed workers in Surbitton.

 

'We the oppressed  workers of Surbitton feel oppressed by your moulded on details and jam jar windows'.

 

 

The Daily Mail

 

Kit builder reveals kits are a hassle in shock reveal.

 

 

Mrs Tulley of Sidcup

 

'I would gladly sell my house and all my possessions to fund a kit built carriage'.

 

 

Tony's Mum

 

'He was like this since he was a lad, always being distracted by A1's and A2's and other finery. Never with his mind on carriages, some of them died through neglect'.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Headstock

[StephenB]

Tony

 

The Hornby BSO looks a fair representation of the prototype, and even if it differs somewhat from the Bachmann Carriage next door, we’ll that’s life, no two carriages on the prototype were exactly the same. Just take a look at any heritage railway and see the difference between them all.

 

Stephen

[Tony Wright]

A statement from The Peoples Popular Front for the Liberation of Kit Built Carriages.

 

'Scrap them'

 

 

Oppressed workers in Surbitton.

 

'We the oppressed  workers of Surbitton feel oppressed by your moulded on details and jam jar windows'.

 

 

The Daily Mail

 

Kit builder reveals kits are a hassle in shock reveal.

 

 

Mrs Tulley of Sidcup

 

'I would gladdy sell my house and all my possessions to fund a kit built carriage'.

 

 

Tony's Mum

 

'He was like this since he was a lad, always being distracted by A1's and A2's and other finery. Never with his mind on carriages, some of them died through neglect'.

My apologies,

 

Having only built about 150 carriages from kits, I'd better get a move on!

[EHertsGER]

A statement from The Peoples Popular Front for the Liberation of Kit Built Carriages.

 

'Scrap them'

 

 

Oppressed workers in Surbitton.

 

'We the oppressed workers of Surbitton feel oppressed by your moulded on details and jam jar windows'.

 

 

The Daily Mail

 

Kit builder reveals kits are a hassle in shock reveal.

 

 

Mrs Tulley of Sidcup

 

'I would gladdy sell my house and all my possessions to fund a kit built carriage'.

 

 

Tony's Mum

 

'He was like this since he was a lad, always being distracted by A1's and A2's and other finery. Never with his mind on carriages, some of them died through neglect'.

No, no, it’s the Popular Peoples Front for Kit Built Carriage Liberation, and we say “just build them”

 

We, the Peoples Front for the Popular Liberation of Carriages, Kit Built say “put them on your layout”

 

Wait a minute, we the Popular People for the Kitting Out of Carriages say “buy Hornby or Bachmann and detail them”

 

And we, the People Popular for saying profound things say “go to the pub...”

Edited December 3, 2017 by EHertsGER

[Willie Whizz]

My grandfather whilst an apprentice in the pattern shop at Firth Brown's in Sheffield worked on the rudder of the Hood ... My father has an old picture somewhere of them all standing around the completed article ... absolutely massive!

Yes indeed - there's also a photograph (a different picture, with no people in it) in Bruce Taylor's magnificent "biography" of the Hood showing just the frame of the rudder, c.1918, in a workshop before it was 'finished' by packing with fir wood and plated over; and it is indeed massive.

 

Hood's rudder's role in her last action was always one of the several puzzles about the great ship's loss; for years many observers and writers couldn't come to an agreement over whether - having made a headlong dash towards the Bismarck to close to 'decisive range' and maximise the advantages of her old-fashioned armouring scheme - she had actually had time to obey her own Admiral's last signal, and turn to bring her stern gun turrets to bear, before the fatal shell found that 'chink in her armour' and blew her to oblivion.  Only when the technology advanced sufficiently for the wreck to be surveyed by remote submersibles was this cleared-up; the rudder was indeed angled, proving the 20-degree turn ordered was indeed under way and Hood was about to unleash her full destructive power.  As Taylor observes, "If ever a ship died in action, Hood did".

[sulzer27jd]

No, no, it’s the Popular Peoples Front for Kit Built Carriage Liberation, and we say “just build them”

 

We, the Peoples Front for the Popular Liberation of Carriages, Kit Built say “put them on your layout”

 

Wait a minute, we the Popular People for the Kitting Out of Carriages say “buy Hornby or Bachmann and detail them”

 

And we, the People Popular for saying profound things say “go to the pub...”

 

Splitters!

[Tony Wright]

Perhaps 'hassle' was the wrong description for my making of kit-built carriages. 

 

I suppose it comes down to what one enjoys the most. I've probably mentioned before that I have around 90 Bachmann Mk.1s running on LB. They're in just about every express, and in one case (the morning 'Talisman') exclusively. In the main, they're the right types in the right formation. All have been modified by having the roof ribs taken off, concertina gangways fixed in place, my own couplings fitted, new wheels put in and weathring applied. How long it would take me to make the equivalent from kits (and at what price) requires some 'hard sums'. Thus, I'm happy to use them, and the time saved by my not having to make them can be used elsewhere - in the making of the types Bachmann doesn't do; the BSOs for instance, those now available from Hornby. As I've noted, I've already made a couple of these, but they're in carmine and cream, which isn't the appropriate livery for the afternoon 'Talisman' (though a picture exists of one c/c car in the train). Thus, the purchase of the Hornby BSO (despite its limitations) has made my afternoon 'Talisman' more accurate, especially with the little mods made. 

 

So, despite the apparent hypocrisy (and the outrage from Pythonesque parties!), I'll take this route, as I will with the FO (Bachmann only does the RFO) when I purchase that. That doesn't mean I'll forsake building carriage kits (there are two more on the go), but they'll be limited to Gresleys (I don't use Hornby's except as donors), Thompsons and Mk.1s not made RTR. 

 

TW. Founder member of the Popular Pragmatic Carriage Builders' Society. 

[davidw]

I think the new Hornby BSO and FO are basically OK. The overall shape of the Hornby ones is, if anything, a bit better than a Bachmann Mark I and I think the end gangway looks better too. The main drawback of the Hornby ones lies in their Railroad/'Design Clever' heritage so they have moulded end handrails and tank filler pipes, which are separate on the Bachmann ones. The Hornby rendition of blue/grey livery is pretty poor really with the blue being far too dark and the grey too white. Hornby's maroon is fairly close to Bachmann's although a bit dull. The Hornby FO has an error concerning the non-smoking markings, which are on the wrong windows for that livery, and also for blue/grey until the 1980s.

That's a very good summary.

I've two Hornby BSOs both stashed away til Christmas. My mk1s are 80% plus Bachmann or resided Bachmann. Then 3 or 4 resided replica FOs and RB. I purchased 5 Hornby railroad mk1s when they were ridiculously cheap. Replaced the wheel sets and added more details, with the intention of residing them. A task shelved as the Bachmann version lend themselves to a conversion more easily.

Interestingly the latest batch of Hornby mk1s are now a couple of pounds more expensive than the Bachmann mk1!

The two comet BSO etch sides that I still have, I'd like to think I'll still use. But it's not the priority it was.I'm thankful that we've such a great selection of MK1s. Perhaps Hornby will surprise us with a catering vechicle for 2018. In future I'd certainly like to add a crimson cream BSO, and a FO.

Edited December 3, 2017 by davidw

[Headstock]

Perhaps 'hassle' was the wrong description for my making of kit-built carriages. 

 

I suppose it comes down to what one enjoys the most. I've probably mentioned before that I have around 90 Bachmann Mk.1s running on LB. They're in just about every express, and in one case (the morning 'Talisman') exclusively. In the main, they're the right types in the right formation. All have been modified by having the roof ribs taken off, concertina gangways fixed in place, my own couplings fitted, new wheels put in and weathring applied. How long it would take me to make the equivalent from kits (and at what price) requires some 'hard sums'. Thus, I'm happy to use them, and the time saved by my not having to make them can be used elsewhere - in the making of the types Bachmann doesn't do; the BSOs for instance, those now available from Hornby. As I've noted, I've already made a couple of these, but they're in carmine and cream, which isn't the appropriate livery for the afternoon 'Talisman' (though a picture exists of one c/c car in the train). Thus, the purchase of the Hornby BSO (despite its limitations) has made my afternoon 'Talisman' more accurate, especially with the little mods made. 

 

So, despite the apparent hypocrisy (and the outrage from Pythonesque parties!), I'll take this route, as I will with the FO (Bachmann only does the RFO) when I purchase that. That doesn't mean I'll forsake building carriage kits (there are two more on the go), but they'll be limited to Gresleys (I don't use Hornby's except as donors), Thompsons and Mk.1s not made RTR. 

 

TW. Founder member of the Popular Pragmatic Carriage Builders' Society. 

 

Tony,

 

I think that I am already a member of the rival Hypocritical Unpopular Pragmatic Carriage Builders Society. I confess to being quite happy to use the excellent Hornby Maunsell carriages. Like yourself I have subjected them to modification to add more desirable features, decent couplings, frosted toilet windows, working gangways and a complete repaint amongst other things. Two were complete rebuilds into an RKB and composite dinning car. I did originally try to acquire kits for my purpose but one range disappeared, I was let down by another supplier and the lead times on a third would have left me pushing up daisies. When the Hornby Maunsell carriages came out I jumped quite happily at the chance to utilise them, despite their jam jar windows, they are significant improvements on at least two of the options mentioned above.

 

I would admit to choosing a period to model quite deliberately before the invention of the MK1, a step forwards in carriage design they may have been but they are kind of boring. Perhaps if I was to build some, I would no doubt gain a new appreciation for them, one of the joys of making things I find. Presently I'm drilling and filing out the sixteen recesses for the door and grab handles of a GCR corridor third, a process that certainly could be described as a hassle but with a bit of luck it should give the finished carriage a bit of extra pizazz. Unfortunately GCR carriages are just a little bit cooler than a MK1, so the construction of one may be some decades away.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Headstock

[gr.king]

 

I'm often asked why a particular vehicle derails or crabs along. 'I've checked all the back-to-backs and they're fine' I'll be told. They might be, but if the frames have been assembled as a sort of parallelogram, it matters not a jot whether every back-to-back is dead right. It won't work! Some 40+ years ago, a guy in Wolverhampton MRC worked in a steel-manufacturing firm in the town. He milled me this six inch long back-to-back gauge in mild steel, after I'd explained what I needed. It's the most useful tool I possess for setting up wheelsets dead square. Here, I'm using it to check that all is well with the tender frames on the A2/2. Why no manufacturer has ever offered this sort of thing, I don't know. I also use it for checking all the wheelsets in loco chassis - it was especially useful for the 9F I built recently.

 

 

Whilst the safe and correct approach is to ensure that all the axles are square and the wheels are thus able to line up properly rather than merely to have the correct gauge for each set, it's amazing to see what will actually run satisfactorily with axles that are definitely out of square. I have one or two accidental examples as proof.

[Tony Teague]

The question of whether 3D printing will soon take the place of kit-building has been raised here a couple of times, but with Tony's permission, I'd just like to share my latest experience which I hope may be of interest to others.

 

I noted on another RMWeb thread (that I now cannot find!) that someone had very kindly drawn and 3D printed the body for a slightly obscure SE&CR 20T 6 wheeled brake van (SR d.1558) and that it was available from Shapeways for just over £30:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/L6DEMGDN4/a-76-secr-6w-brakevan-1?productConfiguration=63882627&etId=168957135&utm_source=automated-contact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=order-shipped&utm_content=2

 

I thought that this would add a bit of variety to my fleet and so, even though the body has no floor and will need a chassis to be built, I sent for one which duly arrived a week or so later.

 

Unfortunately part of the step board was missing on one side and the tie bar between two of the axle boxes was broken on the other, and so I reported this to Shapeways who agreed without any fuss to replace it.

 

The replacement arrived yesterday and although the step boards are complete, one of the tie bars again has a gap in it; in neither case were any broken bits inside the very secure packing and so one can only assume that because this part is extremely fragile, there has been a fault in printing it. A picture showing the two prints is attached.

 

 

I can't fault Shapeways service, and the 3D drawing is clearly excellent, but having decided that both the step boards and the tie bars are way too flimsy I shall not ask Shapeways for a third print, but will replace these parts with more robust materials.

 

Turning to the surface quality of the print, this is in a material called "white strong & flexible" and it is certainly white! I am not going to put the other two qualities to the test but I can only say that it appears to me to be rather more flimsy than I would like, and as others have found, the surface itself is considerably less smooth than that of a plastic injection moulding - but I knew that before I placed my order.

 

 

So yes, I have got my model of an unusual prototype which is not available RTR or in kit form, and I do not regret my purchase; whether the model will actually appear on my layout or stay in a stock drawer probably depends on how much effort I put into completing it and whether I can put up with the relatively rough looking surface texture.

 

For me, 3D printing is still very immature and not yet a viable alternative to brass, nickel-silver or plastic injection moulding!

 

(Just my opinion!)

 

Tony

 

[Lecorbusier]

I think things are moving pretty fast in 3d printing and there is a lot of playing around with different media. Bill Bedford at Mousa is now doing most of his wagons/vans using 3d printing. I had a look at one at Scaleforum this year and whilst not perfect i thought it was pretty good and quite robust. He pairs the bodies with his etched undercarriage - worth watching but for me it takes too much of the making out of the process.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Lecorbusier

[Jesse Sim]

Tony, my friends loco he brought to my running day didn't seem to work. Can't understand why.     

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

Does he not realise that you are in Australia?  It is clearly upside down.

[LNER4479]

Tony, my friends loco he brought to my running day didn't seem to work. Can't understand why.   

 

IMG_0090.JPG

Strewth Jesse - didn't realise you'd gone O gauge, mate 

[johnlambert]

I hope it isn't too late to bring up the topic of Warley again.  The N gauge boge that Tony built was mine; I wanted some advice on how to put it together.  The last time (a couple of years ago) I tried to build one of these it ended up as a sorry mess of bent brass and solder blobs.  Thanks again to Tony for taking the time to show me how to do it.

 

Today I had a go at making one of my own, my effort is on the left, Tony's is on the right.  Mine is actually more free-running than the one Tony assembled.

 

 

My first attempt wasn't quite as successful (I'm glad I bought a spare etch), but may yet be salvaged.

 

 

A cruel close-up to give an idea of how it will look under a Chinese-assembled Graham Farish Castle.

 

 

Plus a photo of the original bogie arrangement.

 

 

It's very satisfying when you finally get a tricky build to come together.

Edited December 3, 2017 by johnlambert

[chris p bacon]

Turning to the surface quality of the print, this is in a material called "white strong & flexible" and it is certainly white! I am not going to put the other two qualities to the test but I can only say that it appears to me to be rather more flimsy than I would like, and as others have found, the surface itself is considerably less smooth than that of a plastic injection moulding - but I knew that before I placed my order.

 

SJPPC03001002171203.jpg

 

So yes, I have got my model of an unusual prototype which is not available RTR or in kit form, and I do not regret my purchase; whether the model will actually appear on my layout or stay in a stock drawer probably depends on how much effort I put into completing it and whether I can put up with the relatively rough looking surface texture.

 

For me, 3D printing is still very immature and not yet a viable alternative to brass, nickel-silver or plastic injection moulding!

 

(Just my opinion!)

 

Tony

 

Most of the issue with the brake van above is the material used (WSF-White, Strong & Flexible) it's offered as it's the cheaper alternative but I don't think it's suitable, it doesn't take many glues and needs a lot of work to get a good finish.

 

I have several 3D printed locomotives which are printed in FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail).

This is an Ivatt tender that has just been cleaned with no other work carried out (at the time) it takes glues such as Cyano for the handrails and any other detail needed and has a far superior finish. Price wise this was £50 which is comparable to a LRM kit (average £45).

 

I agree 3D is still in it's infancy, but when the correct materials are used it can be equal to other forms of construction.

[Tony Teague]

Most of the issue with the brake van above is the material used (WSF-White, Strong & Flexible) it's offered as it's the cheaper alternative but I don't think it's suitable, it doesn't take many glues and needs a lot of work to get a good finish.

 

I have several 3D printed locomotives which are printed in FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail).

190.JPG

This is an Ivatt tender that has just been cleaned with no other work carried out (at the time) it takes glues such as Cyano for the handrails and any other detail needed and has a far superior finish. Price wise this was £50 which is comparable to a LRM kit (average £45).

 

I agree 3D is still in it's infancy, but when the correct materials are used it can be equal to other forms of construction.

Chris / Dave

That's very helpful; I doubt that many of us know much about the difference between WTF WSF and FUD and I probably would have paid the extra for a FUD model had I known - or had it been available.

Tony

[Woodcock29]

Tony

 

I finally got around to purchasing your Crowood book on LB - its terrific. Well done.

 

Andrew

[APOLLO]

Tony

 

I finally got around to purchasing your Crowood book on LB - its terrific. Well done.

 

Andrew

 

I got one last week, not looked at it yet, Christmas present from kids !!

 

I will give a (loud) report after the Turkey & Sprouts !!!!!

 

Brit15

[Atso]

Chris / Dave

That's very helpful; I doubt that many of us know much about the difference between WTF WSF and FUD and I probably would have paid the extra for a FUD model had I known - or had it been available.

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

Another vote for FUD/FXD over SWF for the ability to work the print to get a good finish. FUD/FXD is an acrylic plastic/resin that is printed in layers using technology similar to an inkjet printer (but able to move in the vertical axis as well). The resulting print will exhibit 'layering' but its more rigid nature makes sanding/scraping these away much easier.

 

SWF is sintered nylon particles which gives the resultant print its grainy feel. Shapeways does offer a polishing service but this often results in details being either badly softened or removed completely and it is better to try and smooth the surface by hand. Personally, I find SWF the more difficult material to work with as its flexible nature makes sanding difficult and, because it is printed using sintered nylon particles, it is porous and really needs filling. However, for parts that require strength and flexibility it is very good and does take hacking around with knives/drills quite well; I've used it for dummy radial trucks on the back of my N gauge N2 and V1.

 

I've recently had a play with the (relatively) new High Definition Acrylic (HDA) but feel that FUD/FXD is the better material. This was surprising to me as HDA uses a similar process to my v1.1 B9Creator which I think is superior to FUD/FXD, if a bit restrictive in terms of the size and geometry of the models I can print.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Atso

[Jol Wilkinson]

Most of the issue with the brake van above is the material used (WSF-White, Strong & Flexible) it's offered as it's the cheaper alternative but I don't think it's suitable, it doesn't take many glues and needs a lot of work to get a good finish.

 

I have several 3D printed locomotives which are printed in FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail).

190.JPG

This is an Ivatt tender that has just been cleaned with no other work carried out (at the time) it takes glues such as Cyano for the handrails and any other detail needed and has a far superior finish. Price wise this was £50 which is comparable to a LRM kit (average £45).

 

I agree 3D is still in it's infancy, but when the correct materials are used it can be equal to other forms of construction.

Dave,

 

the price differential withe LRM GNR tenders is rather greater when you include the items that the 3D print model also requires. Buffer heads, springs, handrail wire, etched rear coal rail, etc. The difference is however still small enough to make the ease of building the 3D tender appealing to many. I look forward to seeing it painted.

 

So far I haven't been completely happy with the surface finish of  3D printed models or, in some cases, resin castings from 3D printed masters of wagons I have bought. It isn't too much of a problem for wooden bodied wagons but wouldn't be acceptable to me for locos or steel carriages. So far only the small 3D items I have bought from Modelu have a totally smooth surface, requiring no work prior to painting.

 

Jol

[chris p bacon]

Dave,

 

the price differential withe LRM GNR tenders is rather greater when you include the items that the 3D print model also requires. Buffer heads, springs, handrail wire, etched rear coal rail, etc. The difference is however still small enough to make the ease of building the 3D tender appealing to many. I look forward to seeing it painted.

 

So far I haven't been completely happy with the surface finish of  3D printed models or, in some cases, resin castings from 3D printed masters of wagons I have bought. It isn't too much of a problem for wooden bodied wagons but wouldn't be acceptable to me for locos or steel carriages. So far only the small 3D items I have bought from Modelu have a totally smooth surface, requiring no work prior to painting.

 

Jol

 

Yes there are items to add to the 3D print which are included in a kit. They shouldn't add too much to the cost and we figured that anyone wanting this pre-grouping Ivatt tender would likely be able to source them easily enough. 

The finish itself as supplied isn't bad, since then I've simply cleaned it with a fibreglass brush which has 'flatted' the sides and it's had a coat of primer, I haven't top coated yet as I have a terrible habit of putting painting off (all that lining) but I'll post some images in my thread when I do.

 

Regarding resin kits, yes it's true that if the original 3D print isn't a good finish it will certainly carry over on to the Resin cast. There is also a point at which the silicone mould will start to degrade and the resultant casts will show the wear and tear, I work on getting 20 good casts from a mould although at present I've a GN 9T that is 25+ and still looking ok.

[grob1234]

Sorry for the change of topic.

 

I'm looking at D2's in particular the LRM model (my Christmas present from my wife ). 

 

As I don't yet have information books on the class, I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the following from the class had the superheated boiler or not in about 1937-39? 

 

4323

4324

4330

4338

4361

4370

4399

 

All of these appeared at Grantham in 37/38 according to 'Shedbash', so I thought they would have shuttled up and down the ECML on local services etc?

Edited December 4, 2017 by grob1234

[Atso]

 

The finish itself as supplied isn't bad, since then I've simply cleaned it with a fibreglass brush which has 'flatted' the sides and it's had a coat of primer, I haven't top coated yet as I have a terrible habit of putting painting off (all that lining) but I'll post some images in my thread when I do.

 

Interesting that you use a glassfibre brush Dave; Personally, I use that as my weapon of last resort. For cleaning up most 3D prints, I use various grades of sanding sticks to remove the print lines. For this, I wouldn't recommend making your own using coffee stirrers as they lack the flexibility needed to get around some of the details/curves. My choice for these is Flory Models' medium and fine grade sticks which have a foam layer under the abrasive paper which will (for the most part) follow the contours of the model. Flory Models thinnest sanding sticks are 5mm in width but these can be cut into some interesting shapes to get into nooks and crannies but if I need anything thinner I use Albion Alloys 3mm width sticks. Shaped cocktail sticks are also useful for getting into those hard to reach places and the wood does provide an surprising amount of abrasiveness.

 

Having been the owner of an airbrush for a few years now, I tend to use Tamiya paints to see how much work is required to smooth the print. This has two advantages, in that I can spray a very thin coat on the model and can get to work sanding far faster than but using a primer out of a rattle can. I usually work on the basis that if I've managed to remove all the paint then I must be pretty close to getting a good surface finish. Once I'm happy with the print, I do tend to use a rattle can of Halfords primer for my final base before painting and lining.

 

Below is one of my more recent efforts (unfinished and I think its been shown on here before). This was printed in Frosted Extreme Detail and cleaned up as described above which, excluding painting and drying times, was about one and a half to two hours work with some sanding sticks. I do think I used some very fine chisels, held vertically, to remove some of the layers on the splashers as well.

 

 

Safety valves, buffers, lamp irons and handrails have all been added using commercially available parts (coupling hooks and vac pipes to follow).

 

Edit: Whatever you do, not use a file on a 3D print in resin/plastic as I'm yet to see that method end well....

Edited December 4, 2017 by Atso