Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

It was good to talk to you at the weekend, Martin, standing, as we were, next to The Summit and taking in its parade of beautiful trains. 

 

I think the education/entertainment aspect of a model railway is impossible to fully reconcile. Why? Because, no matter how hard we strive (and succeed?) to apply the necessary disciplines in making our model railways as accurate to a prototype as we can, both in terms of time and place, and make our trains as accurate and appropriate as our skills allow, the minute those disciplines are applied to operation (especially on an exhibition layout), everything falls down with regard to 'accuracy'.

 

I'd better explain. I know LB is not an exhibition layout, but it sees many wonderful visitors (yourself included). I blather on to them about how much research has been conducted in the making of all aspects of the model by the building group, and then I run trains. How? Completely unrealistically. Though the trains don't fail, derail or refuse to do what their prototype equivalents did, many of them (by request) just go round and round for a few circuits. Then, moments after, another train appears, then another, and another.............. At any time four trains can circulate (five, if the M&GNR is included), and (limited) shunting can take place as well.  Some like to run the sequence, which takes about an hour and a half; yet, it's supposed to represent a day's watching at LB in 1958. I have the passenger timetables and the WTT for the period, and there's a period of over 45 minutes in the mid-afternoon where nothing runs through. It's even 'worse' when visiting stock appears - how many GREAT BEARS ever ran along the ECML in 1958, or, come to that, Western diesels? 

 

When we ran Stoke Summit at shows, 45 seconds between one train disappearing and the next appearing was considered a maximum! And, only the 'correct' stock ran. 

 

Does all this matter? Of course not, in the comfort of the home, among dear friends. However, at a show, operation has to be much more frequent than reality (within limits), and, in my view, only the appropriate stock should run. But then, I'm in the pulpit! 

When David Jenkinson took Garsdale Road to shows, he would run each train round twice - the idea being that if spectators spotted something interesting on the first circuit they could take a closer look the second time.

[unclebobkt]

       ... .

  Nice to see the old-fashioned verb 'shewing' in use, now going out of use. The entrance to Retford Station used to have a sign 'saying' 'Please Shew Tickets'. How nicely old-fashioned. 

 

        Thank you for your approbation.

 

  That particular spelling of the verb picked-up from both the GWR. and from the Aldershot and District Traction Co., (from the time when I happened to be to the RAE.. F'borough.  1959-'60.;   when a couple of DH. 'Comets.' were being tank-tested to discover the causes of their crashes.)),.

       

[Lecorbusier]

Horses for courses?

 

Perhaps at a specialist show there is scope for a more academic approach to modelling and realism ... including stock and timetabling (though compressed).

 

At a general show, variety is perhaps what it is all about. Then people will gravitate according to taste and inclination. Hopefully  a wide range of paying punters will be attracted and all will find something palatable, ....and some layouts will even manage to bridge multiple tastes and expectations.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Clive Mortimore]

I find with when on a demonstration stand it can sometimes be difficult to engage with the public. Maybe there a lot of shy people who just like to view and they are happy in there comfort zone. Perhaps other people aren't as rude as me and don't want to disturb me if I look busy. I don't sit there not doing anything but do try to be aware of people looking at the stand and should I catch their eye I say "Hello" if they do not start the conversation.

 

Sometimes it is hard to break the conversation when you can see another person wishing to speak to you. It is great when you can involve the new person into the existing conversation. There are a very few people who you see coming towards you and you wish someone else was sitting in your seat. All because I was polite and listened to you and your thoughts on rights and wrongs of signalling of light railways doesn't mean I want to hear it for the 20th time.

 

Some demonstrators are lucky and have a pal come and talk the pro and cons of DCC and driving trains towards each other with the visitor who you are desperately trying to disengage from. 

 

Back to those who do not wish to disturb me, would a sign saying something like, "Please do ask questions, I am here to answer them, not to just model make," help?

 

Having said all the above I enjoy sitting there with my group of part built models, as I cut some plastic card chatting to those who show an interest. The best is when four or five years later a chap turns up and says "I watched you at XYZ show and I have now built a thingymejig after seeing how you build yours".

 

As for building models at a show. I did once make the body shell for a BTH Type 1 during a show chatting as I did so.

[2ManySpams]

Stephen,

 

it spoils it for those that know and who therefore don't need educating. What they want, is to be "properly" entertained.

 

I suggest however, that visitors to the majority of show don't have sufficient knowledge about a particular railway, period or location to know whether what they are seeing is accurately modelled, realistically stocked or prototypically operated. Do they want to be educated about any or all of what the wide variety of layouts have set out to portray? 

 

At one show a visitor complained that the trains weren't frequent enough (i.e. more than one a minute). I suggested - joking slightly - that it was to enable viewers to look at the rest of the modelling. "I am not interested in that" came the reply. Now, one swallow doesn't make a spring, but I wonder how typical he was, any more than your knowledgeable but equally dismissive  friend.

 

Jol

We had an end to end layout based on a small intermediate station on the North Cornwall Railway called Treneglos. Single line, loop, two siding goods yard.

 

We started off at the early shows running it properly, with trains shunting the yard from time to time. To do so stopped any action on the mainline.

 

It made operation more interesting for us but every time we did it the assembled crowd walked off. We concluded that most paying folk just want to see trains running, so that's what we did. As a result we regularly had crowds 2-3 deep and many return visitors. Some would stay for hours and talk at length about their memories of journeys to the North Cornwall coast.

 

Not totally prototypical but more entertaining?

[Black Marlin]

  '.      Ha! Ha!!  I like that collective noun: 'A profligacy of Panniers.'.':

 

  Presumably one can have 'An abundance of Atlantics.';  'An ocean of Pacifics.';. 'A multitude of Moguls.' and so on.

  Or even a 'Plenitude, or progeny,  of Panniers.'?

  Possibly the LB&SC. folks would like 'A tenacity of Terriers.'?

  For the LMS. partisans just a 'Jubilation.' would suffice?

  Any other or better offers, please?

 

       

 

A plethora of panniers

 

A sumptuousness of saddle tanks

 

A chorus of Churchwards (including a hallelujah of Saints and a congregation of Counties)

 

A glory of Gresleys (including a swoon of Streaks)

 

A posy of Princesses

 

A pride of Patriots

 

A jamboree of Jubilees

 

A crown of Coronations / a dower of Duchesses

 

A cabal of Kings

 

edit to add:

 

A regality of Royal Scots

 

An awkwardness of Austerities

 

A hunch of Hymeks

 

A wandering of Westerns

 

A magnificence of moguls

 

A fleet of Lord Nelsons

 

A lollop of Greyhounds

 

A keep of Castles

 

A mastery of Schools

 

An echoing of Halls

 

A scuttle of Crabs

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Black Marlin

[Northmoor]

A Harem of HSTs.....?

[Black Marlin]

Which is correct? A scrumping of West Countries or a flush of WCs?

Not to be confused with a squadron of BoBs...

A Harem of HSTs.....?

I vote for 'a hustle of HSTs'.

edit: any 'flush of WCs' that includes 34009 Lyme Regis will be termed 'a royal flush of WCs'.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Black Marlin

[Chuffer Davies]

Which is correct? A scrumping of West Countries or a flush of WCs?

Not to be confused with a squadron of BoBs...

 

 

I vote for 'a hustle of HSTs'.edit: any 'flush of WCs' that includes 34009 Lyme Regis will be termed 'a royal flush of WCs'.

Can I put in a bid for ‘a parade of Prairies’

 

Frank

[richard i]

Tony

A progress report of modeling.

I still need to rig the brake gear, still thinking about how to rig the pullrods which go outside the wheels. It will lock the wheels in, it might be the price to pay.

Also I will be seeking advice on finishing off the running gear. How to lock off the extended axels. Solder will lock them in, so super glue?

Richard

[RThompson]

I find with when on a demonstration stand it can sometimes be difficult to engage with the public. Maybe there a lot of shy people who just like to view and they are happy in there comfort zone. Perhaps other people aren't as rude as me and don't want to disturb me if I look busy. I don't sit there not doing anything but do try to be aware of people looking at the stand and should I catch their eye I say "Hello" if they do not start the conversation.

 

Sometimes it is hard to break the conversation when you can see another person wishing to speak to you. It is great when you can involve the new person into the existing conversation. There are a very few people who you see coming towards you and you wish someone else was sitting in your seat. All because I was polite and listened to you and your thoughts on rights and wrongs of signalling of light railways doesn't mean I want to hear it for the 20th time.

 

Some demonstrators are lucky and have a pal come and talk the pro and cons of DCC and driving trains towards each other with the visitor who you are desperately trying to disengage from. 

 

Back to those who do not wish to disturb me, would a sign saying something like, "Please do ask questions, I am here to answer them, not to just model make," help?

 

Having said all the above I enjoy sitting there with my group of part built models, as I cut some plastic card chatting to those who show an interest. The best is when four or five years later a chap turns up and says "I watched you at XYZ show and I have now built a thingymejig after seeing how you build yours".

 

As for building models at a show. I did once make the body shell for a BTH Type 1 during a show chatting as I did so.

From about the age of 13, I used to do quite a few demonstrations in rtr loco detailing then later on metal loco kit building from 14 onwards. I think with me being so young it would astound some people as well as encourage along the lines of "well if a 14 year old can do that, so can I".

 

I was building a brassmasters LNWR super D at ally pally the one year and caused a stench using a gas torch due to the brass tube for the boiler, although there was a draught in the hall and kept blowing the torch out!

 

As soon as I started working which was every weekend I stopped doing demonstrations/exhibitions, nothing's changed today then!

[Tony Wright]

Perhaps take a ten-minute break every hour to let the crowd disperse? I'm old enough to remember exhibitions where most layouts had a little sign giving the time of the next demonstration. Now folk expect continuous action from the time the show opens to the time it shuts.

 

Regarding "spectacle" on layouts, I know you are exaggerating but I don't see anything wrong with gimmicks (Jack Dugdale was a master of them) to provide entertainment. There's no reason though for the railway elements not to inform and educate, as discussed above.

I remember Jack Dugdale's 'Ortogo' (I assume 'aught to go'?) at the Manchester shows many, many years ago I recall a rabbit hopping in and out of hole as a train approached. Am I odd in not finding that sort of thing 'interesting'? I spent much more time watching Mr Slater making things from Plastikard (and disappearing in a cloud of fag smoke). To me (not the smoke), that was much more interesting and 'educational'. 

 

'Gimmicky' things have never held my attention on model railways, though, I concede, they are, to some, entertaining and worth their place at shows. 

[The Stationmaster]

One of my modelling friends can be very dismissive of layouts - there was nothing running, it wasn’t entertaining so move on. In that respect the late Holiday Haunts was a joy to watch, so too Stoke Summit. However, very few portray the shunting aspect of railway operation as it should be. Most operators don’t have much idea how it was really done and that spoils the effect.

 

Stephen

 

There are two problems with portraying shunting - one of which 'Spams' has fully identified (although there can be exceptions to that and DLT's 'Bridport' is an excellent layout in terms of attracting folk who like to watch shunting, or me making a hash of the shunting).  But the real problem with portraying shunting as it was really done is the near impossibility of doing so particularly in the smaller scales.  The reason for this is that many types of coupling do not permit realistic loose shunting (which is how an awful lot of shunting was performed in the real world) and the smaller scale vehicles don't have the necessary mass to allow realistic loose shunting.

 

With very free running wagons and couplings which permit loose shunting you could get a lot nearer the way things used to be done in the real world and that probably would entertain many visitors even if only to get them wondering where that 'runaway' wagon is going to halt.

[Tony Wright]

Tony

A progress report of modeling.

IMG_5086.JPG

I still need to rig the brake gear, still thinking about how to rig the pullrods which go outside the wheels. It will lock the wheels in, it might be the price to pay.

Also I will be seeking advice on finishing off the running gear. How to lock off the extended axels. Solder will lock them in, so super glue?

Richard

Superglue?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No, solder. It's adjustable and the cranks can be removed in future if necessary by just reintroducing the iron. 

[Tony Wright]

A plethora of panniers

 

A sumptuousness of saddle tanks

 

A chorus of Churchwards (including a hallelujah of Saints and a congregation of Counties)

 

A glory of Gresleys (including a swoon of Streaks)

 

A posy of Princesses

 

A pride of Patriots

 

A jamboree of Jubilees

 

A crown of Coronations / a dower of Duchesses

 

A cabal of Kings

 

edit to add:

 

A regality of Royal Scots

 

An awkwardness of Austerities

 

A hunch of Hymeks

 

A wandering of Westerns

 

A magnificence of moguls

 

A fleet of Lord Nelsons

 

A lollop of Greyhounds

 

A keep of Castles

 

A mastery of Schools

 

An echoing of Halls

 

A scuttle of Crabs

 

I was going to suggest a 'dose' of crabs, but that's a bit rude; but I've done it anyway!

 

Still, some wonderful collective nouns - most inventive.

 

Many thanks. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Tony Wright

[asmay2002]

Have you ever seen a "demonstrator" (as I have) with head bent over their current project, engrossed in what they are doing, while the visitors walk past, learning nothing? I remember one proudly announcing on a forum of how many models they had assembled at a particular show.

Yes I have seen "demonstrators" do this.  They are a waste of space.  When I'm behind the desk doing the demonstrating at a show it doesn't happen.  If I get anything much done at all it comes as a bonus.

[glo41f]

Ah Mr Slater and the Plasticard demos. He smoked all the time he was wielding the brush full of solvent. I was told that this meant he was in danger of inhaling the chemical results  (Phosgene gas?). No safety considerations then. The same applied to the shows in London and Manchester where workshop processes were shown using small lathes and milling machines. Those shows also used to have rows of static models on display shelves but we never knew if they actually worked. I recall admiring one loco with exquisite finish to be told it had been spray painted a technique that up to then had not seen or heard about. I think it was a GW King made by the modelling group called Fourmillade or some such. Not many working layouts then and some of them were 3 rail or outside third. How we looked forward to those rare and infrequent shows whereas today most weekends seem to have several taking place. We are better off today but to read some comments elsewhere you would not thing that was the case.

 

Martin Long

[asmay2002]

I find with when on a demonstration stand it can sometimes be difficult to engage with the public. Maybe there a lot of shy people who just like to view and they are happy in there comfort zone. Perhaps other people aren't as rude as me and don't want to disturb me if I look busy. I don't sit there not doing anything but do try to be aware of people looking at the stand and should I catch their eye I say "Hello" if they do not start the conversation.

 

Sometimes it is hard to break the conversation when you can see another person wishing to speak to you. It is great when you can involve the new person into the existing conversation. There are a very few people who you see coming towards you and you wish someone else was sitting in your seat. All because I was polite and listened to you and your thoughts on rights and wrongs of signalling of light railways doesn't mean I want to hear it for the 20th time.

 

Some demonstrators are lucky and have a pal come and talk the pro and cons of DCC and driving trains towards each other with the visitor who you are desperately trying to disengage from. 

 

Back to those who do not wish to disturb me, would a sign saying something like, "Please do ask questions, I am here to answer them, not to just model make," help?

 

Having said all the above I enjoy sitting there with my group of part built models, as I cut some plastic card chatting to those who show an interest. The best is when four or five years later a chap turns up and says "I watched you at XYZ show and I have now built a thingymejig after seeing how you build yours".

 

As for building models at a show. I did once make the body shell for a BTH Type 1 during a show chatting as I did so.

A lot of that sounds very familiar.  A couple of things I have found useful. Firstly when someone starts watching me just to simply say "Hello" and attempt to start a conversation  (this is also useful if you can't get rid of someone - say hello to the next new face).  Secondly when there is a parent and child I will often hand my scriber to the child and get them to scribe a line across a piece of scrap plastic to help them understand how you do this when building wagons.  They (of course) find it simple and it encourages the parent to star asking more questions.  I absolutely agree that one of the best things is when they come across you again and start talking about what they have done since.

[richard i]

Superglue?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No, solder. It's adjustable and the cranks can be removed in future if necessary by just reintroducing the iron. 

forgive me i have sinned. I will serve my penance and make amends.

[Theakerr]

Re entertainment; on some layouts here in NA (UK also?), owners would/do put a number of small items around the layout  and provide a list at the front of the layout that challenged the children to find them.  The kids loved this and, I suspect, actually saw more of the layout than they would have otherwise as they searched.  Certainly there were more questions like "what is this?" than on a non "entertained" layout.   The items were usually small and easily removed so they didn't really detract from the layout.  

[Clearwater]

There are two problems with portraying shunting - one of which 'Spams' has fully identified (although there can be exceptions to that and DLT's 'Bridport' is an excellent layout in terms of attracting folk who like to watch shunting, or me making a hash of the shunting).  But the real problem with portraying shunting as it was really done is the near impossibility of doing so particularly in the smaller scales.  The reason for this is that many types of coupling do not permit realistic loose shunting (which is how an awful lot of shunting was performed in the real world) and the smaller scale vehicles don't have the necessary mass to allow realistic loose shunting.

 

With very free running wagons and couplings which permit loose shunting you could get a lot nearer the way things used to be done in the real world and that probably would entertain many visitors even if only to get them wondering where that 'runaway' wagon is going to halt.

I wonder if someone clever could use DCC to put small motors and decoders into vans / wagons with loads to allow them to move, and stop, under their own power to be able to recreate the loose shunting Mike describes. There'd have to be a compromise that you'd need some sort of mechanism to power one of the wagon's axles but I'd have thought might be doable, particular in a larger scale? DCC as I think you'd need continuous power to the tracks rather than relying on section breaks. I may be wrong here though! Would be quite challenging and fun to operate.

 

I watched some loose shunting at the weekend at Kidderminster in an old Marston Rail DVD. I've never seen it before. Quite strange to see these wagons rolling around with no direct propulsion.

 

David

David

[Clive Mortimore]

Having been placed next to the very popular G gauge layout at Glasgow, with Thomas chuffing away, James Pip Pip on his whistle, goodness knows what they were smoking but I was inhaling it and the Fat Controller (yes a real bloke dressed up) bashing the layout I was helping on every ten minutes. I was not too pleased when on day three they turned on the church music, the church with the funeral coming out one door as the bride was going in the front. It wasn't wedding music and it wasn't quiet. Thankfully one of the show organisiers agreed with me about the music and asked them to stop playing it.

It was an extremely popular layout with the families. Grandma and the kids having their photo taken with the Fat Controller will be remembered for a few years. It was an entertaining layout and the guys running also seemed to be having fun. But not my cuppa tea. Is there a place at exhibitions for this type of layout?  Yes..............but not next to me.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[cctransuk]

I watched some loose shunting at the weekend at Kidderminster in an old Marston Rail DVD. I've never seen it before. Quite strange to see these wagons rolling around with no direct propulsion.

 

 

It was fascinating to watch in real life, too. Wigston (Leics) was my childhood world, and had a wagon repair works; (a former MR loco shed).

 

The wagons for repair would arrive in a reception siding, and the yard shunter; (originally a 3F - later an EE 350HP diesel shunter); would take the rake onto the yard shunting head - conveniently next to the sleeper fence that we scruffy oiks sat on when trainspotting. (My Mum told me - more than once - that it was impossible to get tar and creosote out of grey school shorts).

 

The shunter would uncouple one or more wagons; the loco would briefly accelerate with a clash of buffers, then come to a sharp halt with a matching clang of loose couplings. The detached wagons would glide serenely off into the selected siding. This repeated ad infinitum - well into the night, as I could confirm as I lay in bed on a still night.

 

The works shunting had one downside - if the shunting loco and wagons blocked our view of something on the fast lines, our parents would have blanched at the shouted obsenities aimed at the driver of the shunter! (Who, to be honest, was not above moving his loco to the critical point deliberately).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[grob1234]

Superglue?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

No, solder. It's adjustable and the cranks can be removed in future if necessary by just reintroducing the iron. 

 

I can imagine you actually falling off your chair here Tony, just the thought of superglue being enough to send you into raptures

[EHertsGER]

Tony

A progress report of modeling.

IMG_5086.JPG

I still need to rig the brake gear, still thinking about how to rig the pullrods which go outside the wheels. It will lock the wheels in, it might be the price to pay.

Also I will be seeking advice on finishing off the running gear. How to lock off the extended axels. Solder will lock them in, so super glue?

Richard

Probably a bit late in the construction process for this, but my approach is to use capillary tube of a length that fits between the hangers to suspend the brake hangers, into which I insert a wire the same length as the inside dimension between the valences. Do not solder this in any way. Hang the hangers from it and solder up every thing else. Place the body on the chassis, trapping the wire. To remove the brake gear, remove the body and slide out the wire. Brakes drop away. For hangers where the upper suspension joint is visible, a short stub soldered to the hanger allows the brakes to ‘clip’ into the capillary tube. Probably as clear as mud. Edited March 14, 2018 by EHertsGER