Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

There are people for whom a minor error of detail spoils their enjoyment of an exquisite piece of modelling. A rivet counter is such a person, who cannot forbear to point the error out. This can be intended in the spirit of increasing the sum total of human knowledge as much as a desire to demonstrate their own superiority; as such it should be treated with sympathy as a piece of social naivety and also as a mild signifier of an obsessive compulsive disorder.

 

A finescale policeman is the outcome of someone visiting the Modelu stand in appropriate authentic period costume.

[Lecorbusier]

A finescale policeman is the outcome of someone visiting the Modelu stand in appropriate authentic period costume.

             

[Arun Sharma]

Perhaps rivet counters should be invited back bringing their own interpretation of the model that they find so objectionable

[Headstock]

So, if Tony invites people to critique his wagons, how would anybody dare reply? Would they not be in fear of being attacked by the anti rivet counter enforcement brigade? The A.R.C.E.B. being keen to demonstrate their superiority as well adjusted human beings. Personally, I do a lot of riveting and have even been known to count them, though I confess that I could not recall at the drop of a hat, how many an individual part would require.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Headstock

[Atso]

The true art of finescale modelling is knowing what to leave out.

Tim

Which in your case is not a lot Tim (the maker of scratch built reversible 2mm scale valve gear!).

[Tony Wright]

 

Pendant head here on Jerry!

 

It should be infinitely (without an 'a'), and you you should have written dependent, not dependant in the context of what you meant. 

 

....presumably a dependant is dependent upon something ... for instance a pendant would be a dependant, dependent upon a ceiling hook? ... or a pedant would be a dependant ... dependent upon the absence of typos?

 

Interesting to muse upon what a 'Pendant Head' might look like 

 

 

You've fallen for the old skoolteecher trick of putting deliberate errors in! 

 

Well spotted that boy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

So, if Tony invites people to critique his wagons, how would anybody dare reply? Would they not be in fear of being attacked by the anti rivet counter enforcement brigade? The A.R.C.E.B. being keen to demonstrate their superiority as well adjusted human beings. Personally, I do a lot of riveting and have even been known to count them, though I confess that I could not recall at the drop of a hat, how many an individual part would require.

Good afternoon Andrew,

 

I would have thought by inviting a critique (of anything) then he/she who offers the invitation must be prepared to accept whatever comes back. I would be horrified if anyone were 'scared' of replying to me; though I was once taken to task by a head who, after receiving a complaint from an odious little twerp I'd had occasion to reprimand, loudly informed me that 'Children do not come to my school to be frightened, Mr Wright'. The fact that he'd attempted to ruin a lesson (though he didn't succeed!) seemed to carry no weight. I left teaching not long after. 

 

I'm often amused by 'critics', armchair or otherwise and whatever association they claim to belong to. Their opinions are often loudly heard, as they lean against barriers at a show and watch a layout (just as I did, at Spalding!). Opinions expressed such as 'That's not right', or 'I wouldn't do it like that' and so on. I was in a very privileged position inasmuch as I could ask them 'May I come over to your house and photograph what you've made, please?' How many times do you think the reply was in the affirmative? 

 

Mind you, I'm definitely not a fan of all this gushing praise where the number of 'likes' to a topic on the web are seen as some kind of status symbol. In most cases, the 'likers' will never have seen what they're liking in the flesh. To me, the 'acid test' for any layout is how good does it look and how well does it work at a show? It can be covered in millions of rivets, all counted, but they all count for nothing if the layout doesn't work. Though I cannot exhibit LB at a show, I invite guests (and criticisms) on a very regular basis. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chamby]

This is the opening to the editorial for my last MRJ, 266. I was actually discussing the art of compromise but I thought it might be interesting in the current debate. Essentially I argue that finescale has only a passing acquaintance with any particular set of standards, its a state of mind which involves the individual modeller doing the best they can within the inevitable (and infinately variable) compromises we all face. 

 

"Attempting to define finescale, a word synonymous with MRJ, in the context of model railways is a whole can of worms which could easily fill an editorial in its own right. Its not a debate I particularly want to get into here, suffice to say that it involves the modeller going that extra mile, beyond what the kit or RTR manufacturers provide us with, in order to achieve our chosen goal. The length of that extra mile and the individual’s goals are the variables in the equation and consequently, we are immediately faced with the need for compromise. Like death and taxes, compromise is inevitable no matter how much time, space, money or ability we have.

 I believe it was Cyril Freezer who, rather tongue in cheek, said that there were enthusiasts for whom operation was all and that they would be happy with trains made up from a string of tennis balls so long as they were correctly signalled and carried the appropriate head and tail lamps. This, of course, is an extreme example but it illustrates the point that the level of compromise is dependant on the individuals’ goals, not some dictat laid down by the finescale police."

 

Jerry

 

ps. I should add that the finescale police are fictional!

 

Some manufacturers would disagree.  PECO have for many years also appropriated the word Finescale to describe their RTP Code 75 and Code 55 track work.  

 

The finescale police have clearly been unable to arrest the use of that definition, adding to the overall confusion.

[The Stationmaster]

Goodness Grahame, you've offered two possible aircraft carriers and, to my recollection, ten possible 'screen seen' variations of the starship! Not to mention the cruiser mentioned earlier and several sailing ships that were given that name (admittedly some with the spelling 'Enterprize').

 

My own model was decided on the basis that Enterprise became (through rebuilding from an A1) the prototype A3 as well as a little nod to Matt Jefferies' and Andrew Probert's incarnations of the famous starship. Off topic: The Enterprise in Star Trek was originally going to be named Yorktown, after the WW2 aircraft carrier lost at Midway. For reasons that I cannot remember, this was changed to Enterprise (Yorktowns sister ship) period to the filming of the first pilot episode - maybe because of Enterprise's historical significance as the most decorated American warship in WW2? Without those two and the other aircraft carriers (luckily all at sea during the attacks on Pearl Harbour), the war in the pacific could have been a very different war.

 

I suspect a more logical reason that it was named 'Enterprise' was because the USS Enterprise was one of the first, if not the first, ship to sail under the flag of the (US) in the War of Independence having been captured from the British as HM Sloop of war 'George' in May 1775.  From then on the first USS Enterprise was succeeded by a further six ships carrying the name prior to it being used for the nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

[Clive Mortimore]

Fine scale?

 

I am so glad I model in plastic and use 00 gauge......one one can accuse or confuse me with finescale.

 

I just enjoy my modeling and my layout train set.

[Manxcat]

You've fallen for the old skoolteecher trick of putting deliberate errors in! 

 

Well spotted that boy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

That reminds me of several episodes of Dad's Army when Captain Mainwaring was heard to say "Ah, I wondered who'd spot that first.".

[ArthurK]

Let's get one thing clear. There never was, and never will be, a definition of what constitutes finescale modelling. It is simply what modellers try to achieve. Something beyond the out of the box train-set. It matters not whether a model is totally accurate (whatever that means) or whether it has the precise number of rivets in the right places. Most, if not all, modellers produce models to the best of their ability. If they satisfied with the result then that is what matters and no doubt they will try to make the next one a little better. That is the way that this hobby progresses.

 

So please let us drop the criticisms that something is not finescale. You don't know what that means and neither do I.  

 

In my ageing years my modelling ability has gone into decline but I still find comfort in looking at something I made in the past whether it is a loco, wagon, coach or building and think to myself "did I really make that"?

 

ArthurK

[petrovich]

Let's get one thing clear. There never was, and never will be, a definition of what constitutes finescale modelling. It is simply what modellers try to achieve. Something beyond the out of the box train-set. It matters not whether a model is totally accurate (whatever that means) or whether it has the precise number of rivets in the right places. Most, if not all, modellers produce models to the best of their ability. If they satisfied with the result then that is what matters and no doubt they will try to make the next one a little better. That is the way that this hobby progresses.

 

So please let us drop the criticisms that something is not finescale. You don't know what that means and neither do I.  

 

In my ageing years my modelling ability has gone into decline but I still find comfort in looking at something I made in the past whether it is a loco, wagon, coach or building and think to myself "did I really make that"?

 

ArthurK

Blimey Arthur if as you posted in post 30588 is anything to go by you are not in decline you are more refined like a fine single malt or wine.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Tony Wright]

Let's get one thing clear. There never was, and never will be, a definition of what constitutes finescale modelling. It is simply what modellers try to achieve. Something beyond the out of the box train-set. It matters not whether a model is totally accurate (whatever that means) or whether it has the precise number of rivets in the right places. Most, if not all, modellers produce models to the best of their ability. If they satisfied with the result then that is what matters and no doubt they will try to make the next one a little better. That is the way that this hobby progresses.

 

So please let us drop the criticisms that something is not finescale. You don't know what that means and neither do I.  

 

In my ageing years my modelling ability has gone into decline but I still find comfort in looking at something I made in the past whether it is a loco, wagon, coach or building and think to myself "did I really make that"?

 

ArthurK

Arthur,

 

A very wise post; many thanks.

 

Speaking for myself, I reckon I reached a plateau in my modelling standards some time ago. This plateau had a scarp slope to begin with (steep), then it levelled out for many years, becoming quite flat, then it's become a rather long dip slope (shallow). 

 

I made my 'best' loco some years ago now. That doesn't mean that anything I made could not be bettered in terms of its being the 'ultimate' in loco-building - Oh no, no, no. Just, I couldn't make it any better with my abilities. 

 

It then became an equation containing elements of ability, experience, impatience and fading faculties. I think ability is innate to some extent, and just needs education/learning/nurture to bring it out. Experience can mitigate fading faculties up to a point and impatience is there all the time. 

 

Above all else, as you so rightly observe, the ability to say 'I made that' is priceless. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

Let's get one thing clear. There never was, and never will be, a definition of what constitutes finescale modelling. It is simply what modellers try to achieve. Something beyond the out of the box train-set. It matters not whether a model is totally accurate (whatever that means) or whether it has the precise number of rivets in the right places. Most, if not all, modellers produce models to the best of their ability. If they satisfied with the result then that is what matters and no doubt they will try to make the next one a little better. That is the way that this hobby progresses.

 

So please let us drop the criticisms that something is not finescale. You don't know what that means and neither do I.  

 

In my ageing years my modelling ability has gone into decline but I still find comfort in looking at something I made in the past whether it is a loco, wagon, coach or building and think to myself "did I really make that"?

 

ArthurK

 

Evening ArthurK,

 

I've looked back through the thread twice and can't find a criticism that somthing is not finescale. Infact, I would say that there is more of an anti finescale sentiment.

[vulcanbomber]

Christmas present  Heljan class 1361

 

 

Brought to run coal wagons to the Gas works

 

 

 

Also 3 new Bachmann coal wagons

 

 

[Headstock]

Mind you, I'm definitely not a fan of all this gushing praise where the number of 'likes' to a topic on the web are seen as some kind of status symbol. In most cases, the 'likers' will never have seen what they're liking in the flesh. To me, the 'acid test' for any layout is how good does it look and how well does it work at a show? It can be covered in millions of rivets, all counted, but they all count for nothing if the layout doesn't work. Though I cannot exhibit LB at a show, I invite guests (and criticisms) on a very regular basis. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I always think that if I get lots of likes for an opinion, I must be doing something wrong. I do feel guilty that I forget to tick somebody's work on occasion. The likes thing is generally a load of old rubbish really, a bit like wishlists.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Headstock

[drmditch]

In relation to the above 'finescale' debate - I just seek to improve my modelmaking skills. Yes, I have a long way to go, but I also enjoy what I make.

 

Nothing is better than a train of vehicles researched/made/modified by me, headed by a locomotive researched/made/modified by me, running over and past structures researched and made by me.

 

Yes, they run on old Peco track, yes there are tight curves, but eventually trains will run to a timetable, to specific destinations. It will be my railway, built for my own 'selfish' pleasure. And, who knows, I may eventually invite one-or-two others to see it.

 

Well, it keeps mind and body active, and lets me learn from the (mostly) knowledgeable people on this forum.

[Clive Mortimore]

Who needs finesacle when you are enjoying your model railways

 

Matt (aka Satan's Goldfish) visited Sheffield Exchange today and took some moving pictures.

 

[ArthurK]

Blimey Arthur if as you posted in post 30588 is anything to go by you are not in decline you are more refined like a fine single malt or wine.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Peter

 

You have overlooked one thing. That A3 was built more than twenty years ago. I am now twenty years older!

 

Arthur

[St Enodoc]

I suspect a more logical reason that it was named 'Enterprise' was because the USS Enterprise was one of the first, if not the first, ship to sail under the flag of the (US) in the War of Independence having been captured from the British as HM Sloop of war 'George' in May 1775.  From then on the first USS Enterprise was succeeded by a further six ships carrying the name prior to it being used for the nuclear powered aircraft carrier.

My take on this is that "Yorktown" is a very USA-centric name and less appropriate than the more generic "Enterprise" for the flagship of the United Federation of Planets fleet. I also suspect that the producers might have felt that "Enterprise" was more likely to generate overseas sales.i

[St Enodoc]

I always think that if I get lots of likes for an opinion, I must be doing something wrong. I do feel guilty that I forget to tick somebody's work on occasion. The likes thing is generally a load of old rubbish really, a bit like wishlists.

Couldn't resist giving that post a 'like' Andrew!

[St Enodoc]

In relation to the above 'finescale' debate - I just seek to improve my modelmaking skills. Yes, I have a long way to go, but I also enjoy what I make.

 

Nothing is better than a train of vehicles researched/made/modified by me, headed by a locomotive researched/made/modified by me, running over and past structures researched and made by me.

 

Yes, they run on old Peco track, yes there are tight curves, but eventually trains will run to a timetable, to specific destinations. It will be my railway, built for my own 'selfish' pleasure. And, who knows, I may eventually invite one-or-two others to see it.

 

Well, it keeps mind and body active, and lets me learn from the (mostly) knowledgeable people on this forum.

I always describe my approach, particularly when it comes to track and wheel standards, as "what used to be called fine scale 00". Those who were there understand what I'm getting at. Those who weren't generally give me a quizzical look, wondering whether I'm pulling their leg.

[Porcy Mane]

 

 

Interesting to muse upon what a 'Pendant Head' might look like 

 

 

Just maybe...

 

 

P

 

Due deference to Roger Waters and Gerald Scarfe.

[DougN]

I guess all this debate over what or what is not " finescale" I find interesting, as each model I build I strive to do better than last time. I would say I don't produce very much as with a family and a demanding full time job some might say I produce a lot. If my aim is to produce the best model of the prototype I can with my resources...and being 20000kms away from the actual subject isn't enough of a challange! Yes the internet has helped immensely but to be able to go and climb all over something or to measure things is quite another thing. So I will continue to challange myself... and I might this afternoon go back to battling with the Finney brake gear on a corridor tender!

 

So finescale is really a challange to everyone, like Tony here, who likes to build things to the best of their ability. The thing as I have said at times is do something, just don't do nothing!