Wright writes.....

[The Fatadder]

I should have received a very topic worthy Christmas present in the form of a set of GW Modells rolling bars, sadly it didn’t quite arrive in time for the big day. Can’t wait to get cracking on my Mitchell Manor’s boiler.

 

I hadn’t heard about Furious, a very interesting ship.

[MarkC]

Don't forget this fine vessel when talking about Enterprise...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Enterprise_(H88)

[Hollar]

Thanks Andrew,

 

I do, usually, paint my own black locos - it's the BR lined green I struggle with.

 

You ask a most interesting question. Should what others see, or not see, determine what we do as modellers? Certainly, if all one does is put together/operate a model railway in the comfort of one's home, where nobody else sees it, then who gives a fig? Definitely not me. However, if it's an exhibition layout, I think there is a responsibility to make it as 'accurate' as possible, and have what should be working, working. That said, I've yet to be convinced of any working model roadway. It's also the same, in my view, where one invites visitors to see a fixed layout at home. It matters not whether the majority of viewers don't know if things are right or wrong, or, don't notice if signals work or not, it matters to me. That's why I'm investigating what's wrong with my freight stock.

 

Speaking of freight stock, here's some more of LB's fleet for folk to comment on/criticise.

 

scratch-built bogie bolster wagon 01.jpg

 

scratch-built bogie bolster wagon 02.jpg

 

This LNER bogie bolster wagon was scratch-built by the late Cliff Bate of Wolverhampton MRC, more than 40 years ago. Certainly before suitable transfers were available. What type is it, please, and is it accurate? Knowing Cliff, I would think it is, though there doesn't seem to be much in the way of brake gear. 

 

Rob Davey and Pete Lander wagons.jpg

 

Another late friend from WMRC, Pete Lander, built the two low wagons to the right from kits. Rob Davey made/painted/weathered the long-wheelbase mineral wagon. 

 

Hornby LNER CCT.jpg

 

Mention has been made of it being more likely that RTR wagons/vans are inaccurate/incorrect. I don't think that's the case with this Hornby LNER CCT. All I've done is to weather it, having first chopped off the couplings.

 

Comet BZ.jpg

 

When John Houlden graduated to 7mm Scale, I acquired a few items of his OO rolling stock, ex the now-burnt Gamston Bank. This is a Comet BZ.

 

Comet Stove R.jpg

 

And a Comet Stove R.

 

Norman Turner wagons 01.jpg

 

The MR/M&GNR bit of LB is much more flexible in its time period (Rule 1 applies), ranging from Nationalisation to closure a decade later. Thankfully, friend Norman Turner of WMRC is very much alive and well and he made several of the wagons from kits or from scratch which run on the 'higher' railway at Little Bytham. The coke wagon in the middle of this cut was weathered/distressed by Rob Davey. It's RTR-based and I would think the wheelbase is too long.

 

 Norman Turner wagons 02.jpg

 

Norman also built the PO mineral wagon, sandwiched between two further examples of Rob Davey's work.

 

Norman Turner wagons 03.jpg

 

And he built these.

 

Norman Turner wagons 04.jpg

 

And this, which is hand-lettered. 

 

Mainline 12T van.jpg

 

Often, RTR vehicles are let down by incorrect chassis, but the bodies might be all right. Rob Davey made a correct chassis for this Mainline LMS 12T van.

 

9' LNER cattle van.jpg

 

Here's one van which will be going - the 9' ex-LNER cattle wagon - 1958 is way too late for this. Another ex-Gamston vehicle.

 

What do all the above show? That LB has a very varied selection of freight vehicles, some of which (I hope not too many) might well be incorrect. However, almost without exception, they're all weathered. Little to me looks less-natural than pristine freight stock. Perhaps the odd new/refurbished example, but very, very few. 

 

I've just done a rough 'head-count', and it would appear I have nearly 300 wagons to use on LB. I hope not too many are too wrong! 

 

Comments please. 

Apart from the anachronism, the other thing about these 9-footers is that over time they got saggier than a sago pudding and ended up with a very glum-looking wooden solebar.  I've given some idle thought as to how this might be modelled but never come up with a sensible solution.

 

The idea of the "layout wagon" has been mentioned a few times in this discussion, and I think it has a broader and more important meaning than "layout engine" or "layout coach" - useful though those concepts are,  Our locomotives are cherished individuals, and in theory at least modelled and painted in painstaking detail from dated photos of the original and carefully chosen example.  Even for wagon nuts such as myself wagons are the worker bees not the queen and the significant unit is the train (or perhaps the goods yard) and not the individual unit

 

Wagons were built and run in huge numbers, and led a life of suffering and neglect, with a very ad hoc and diverse approach ti maintenance and repair.  As a consequence, the model builder can stay within the bounds of realism while enjoying huge scope for variation and detailing - replacement planks, patch-painting, staining and weird weathering, and general variation in colour and local variation.

 

For those seeking representative realism in their layout wagons. the constraint isn't in the individual wagon but in the coherence of the identity within the train or yard.  The overall impression has to be one of typicality and normality, and for me this impression is as vulnerable to thoughtless weathering, a persistently odd selection of wagon types and diagrams and traffic flows as by out-of-the-box RTR trains or the David Jenkinson school of exquisite Elysian Fields modelling.  Looks fantastic, doesn't look like a working railway.  Many otherwise glorious exhibition layouts have me walking away too soon because the goods traffic doesn't make sense or (worse) has an implausible number of specials.  Of course, people are free to model what they like how they like; the sight of exquisite modelling spurs us all on to achieve higher standards.  I'm only saying what interests me as a modeller of indifferent ability but higher aspirations: Fencehouses and Pendon,  More plodding minerals, please, regardless of 4mm sea levels.

 

Returning to the concept of the layout wagon, and taking weather in a train of 16T steel minerals as my text.  Individual wagons show a pretty well infinite variety of damage and wear and tear, but if you look at a long-shot photo of a coal concentration yard it's clear that the generality is that these wagons rot around their side doors and that a model rake that shows this will be off to a good start.  Otherwise and for individual wagons, I just follow Martyn Welch's maxims: what's in made of. what's it used for, where is rainwater likely to accumulate and linger, what's gravity doing, and what has the sun and rain done to the paint pigment. And above all that there is no formula for weathering, only painting what you see  The photo below shows the first part of a coal train I made for John Brighton's Millhouses, which I was happy with, and thought fit to be dragged round by one of his 8Fs.  I've also attached some Parkside hoppers, a line of bolster wagons (mostly detailed Bachmann BBCs and a couple of tank wagons dirtied exactly as specified in The Art of Weathering.

 

To conclude, I have occasionally felt that the wagons in the goods yard don't quite reach up to the consistent and beautiful standards of the rest of the layout.  I'm not too fussed by the occasional anachronism (who hasn't got a soft spot for cattle wagons, anyway?) but the years somehow lacks the spirit of grubby purpose I remember from BR in the early1960s and the feeling that anything you touch is going to leave your hands dirty.

 

Tone

[Tony Wright]

Apart from the anachronism, the other thing about these 9-footers is that over time they got saggier than a sago pudding and ended up with a very glum-looking wooden solebar.  I've given some idle thought as to how this might be modelled but never come up with a sensible solution.

 

The idea of the "layout wagon" has been mentioned a few times in this discussion, and I think it has a broader and more important meaning than "layout engine" or "layout coach" - useful though those concepts are,  Our locomotives are cherished individuals, and in theory at least modelled and painted in painstaking detail from dated photos of the original and carefully chosen example.  Even for wagon nuts such as myself wagons are the worker bees not the queen and the significant unit is the train (or perhaps the goods yard) and not the individual unit

 

Wagons were built and run in huge numbers, and led a life of suffering and neglect, with a very ad hoc and diverse approach ti maintenance and repair.  As a consequence, the model builder can stay within the bounds of realism while enjoying huge scope for variation and detailing - replacement planks, patch-painting, staining and weird weathering, and general variation in colour and local variation.

 

For those seeking representative realism in their layout wagons. the constraint isn't in the individual wagon but in the coherence of the identity within the train or yard.  The overall impression has to be one of typicality and normality, and for me this impression is as vulnerable to thoughtless weathering, a persistently odd selection of wagon types and diagrams and traffic flows as by out-of-the-box RTR trains or the David Jenkinson school of exquisite Elysian Fields modelling.  Looks fantastic, doesn't look like a working railway.  Many otherwise glorious exhibition layouts have me walking away too soon because the goods traffic doesn't make sense or (worse) has an implausible number of specials.  Of course, people are free to model what they like how they like; the sight of exquisite modelling spurs us all on to achieve higher standards.  I'm only saying what interests me as a modeller of indifferent ability but higher aspirations: Fencehouses and Pendon,  More plodding minerals, please, regardless of 4mm sea levels.

 

Returning to the concept of the layout wagon, and taking weather in a train of 16T steel minerals as my text.  Individual wagons show a pretty well infinite variety of damage and wear and tear, but if you look at a long-shot photo of a coal concentration yard it's clear that the generality is that these wagons rot around their side doors and that a model rake that shows this will be off to a good start.  Otherwise and for individual wagons, I just follow Martyn Welch's maxims: what's in made of. what's it used for, where is rainwater likely to accumulate and linger, what's gravity doing, and what has the sun and rain done to the paint pigment. And above all that there is no formula for weathering, only painting what you see  The photo below shows the first part of a coal train I made for John Brighton's Millhouses, which I was happy with, and thought fit to be dragged round by one of his 8Fs.  I've also attached some Parkside hoppers, a line of bolster wagons (mostly detailed Bachmann BBCs and a couple of tank wagons dirtied exactly as specified in The Art of Weathering.

 

To conclude, I have occasionally felt that the wagons in the goods yard don't quite reach up to the consistent and beautiful standards of the rest of the layout.  I'm not too fussed by the occasional anachronism (who hasn't got a soft spot for cattle wagons, anyway?) but the years somehow lacks the spirit of grubby purpose I remember from BR in the early1960s and the feeling that anything you touch is going to leave your hands dirty.

 

Tone

Very realistic indeed.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

However, in all my years of observing Semis (1954-'64), and I saw all but 46231, I never saw one hauling a train of hopper wagons, in reverse!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

Very realistic indeed.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

However, in all my years of observing Semis (1954-'64), and I saw all but 46231, I never saw one hauling a train of hopper wagons, in reverse!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Evening Tony,

 

If you keep building Pacifics, you have to put them on something.

 

Inspired by your new book on Battlecruisers, I did a bit of Jutland game play this afternoon, or at least the run to the South. Though in my case I deployed to the North East, covered by cunning torpedoed attack from the 9th and 10th Destroyer flotillas. Thus, I was able to concentrate on the 5th Battlesquadron, while the enemy 1st scouting group was in some confusion, This allowed to bring the guns of my ships to bear two to one, sinking the Seydlitz and the Von Der Tann and two light cruisers. No serious damage to my side, though the Lion has lost its Q turret yet again and didn't blow up! 

 

Von Der Tann sinking.

[Hollar]

Very realistic indeed.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

However, in all my years of observing Semis (1954-'64), and I saw all but 46231, I never saw one hauling a train of hopper wagons, in reverse!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I'm tempted to say it was a running in turn after being signed off by the Steamlines erecting shop - the clue is the highly-polished rim on  the pony wheel. More likely. the driver just thought that he had to get a closer look at those fabulous 21 tonners after slogging up from Crewe with 40 16-tonners and a BR brake van that was falling to bits.

 

Tone

[drmditch]

Please post pictures of your cattle wagon build. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Well, I have managed to get out of bed, but not started the new build.

However, below are some of the good vehicles I have built over the last five years or so.

I find trucks and wagons quite fascinating, and there are so many to make!

 

 

NBR 3 Axle Van. Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol3.

 

 

 

GNR 19' Van Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol1. (buffers to be replaced having been sourced from Mr Trice and Shapeways.)

 

 

GNR 16'Van Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol1 (buffers as above)

 

 

LMS vans - kits, cross-kits, and RTR conversion. Data from Essery Vol1.

 

 

Ex-NER MAC L Scratchbuilt in brass (and it did look pretty in brass) from data In Tatlow Vol2 and other sources .

 

 

NER D14 Adapted from elderly Triang model

 

 

NER D15. An early scratchbuild about seven or so years ago. There is always room to learn and improve!

 

 

Example of RTR conversion (Weardale being local to me). Dapol original and Peco 9' underframe.

 

 

Ex GC three plank dropside. Scratchbuilt from data In Tatlow Vol1

 

 

An then we start the cattle wagons. These are conversions to 10' wheelbase from the Parkside kit. Data from Tatlow and Mr Banks website.

(I have done more conversions of this kit, and from the notorious Oxford model, but I've already posted pictures of some of these earlier in this thread.

 

 

But for an LNER layout there should probably be more LMS design cattle wagons than LNER ones, so here are some. These are from the Parkside kit, with modifications from Essery Vol1. These are piped vehicles.

 

 

And with a bit of cross-kitting, here is the fitted version.

 

 

And to show I can use white-metal as well. Here is an ex NER vehicle.

 

There are more cattle wagon kits in the kit box, and perhaps tomorrow I will be able to start another LMS one, and this one can end up in bauxite - just for a change.

 

To conclude, and to show how annoying it is when someone produces an RTR vehicle when you have just made a model, here is a Parkside CCT.

 

 

I may not be a perfect modeller, but I like a challenge and I like my vehicles to look as though they work on a coal-fired, coal-hauling railway.

 

Now, something to haul a fitted freight - what's happened to my V2.........

[Willie Whizz]

I think we've occasionally speculated on here regarding "what might have been" as regards LNER locomotives if, say, Gresley had lived longer and/or World War II hadn't intervened - streamlined 4-6-4s or 4-8-2s and so-forth.

 

Well the 'battle cruiser' equivalent of that is the Royal Navy's massive "G3" class, incorporating all the lessons learned from World War I, which is what was intended for constructed in the early 1920s had the politicians not come up with the Washington Naval Treaty, an arms limitation agreement that was meant to put a stop to all new capital ship construction around the world for ten years, and limit the size and armament of any new vessels after that.

 

I've seen it said, by people who should know, that a G3 that would have entered service about 1926-27 would still have been a good match for any of the huge Japanese and indeed American battleships that were actually completed as late as the early 1940s.

 

(Oooh, I do love a bit of 'alternative history!).  A little belated, but Season's Greetings to all.

[grahame]

Back to trains, and wagons in particular. The following rakes of wagons were all built from NGS kits (N/2mm). Firstly a set of five auto-ballasters. Bachmann/Farish produced their own RTR version (after the NGS released their kit) but AFAIC the RTR ones don't have the same level of finesse as the kit built ones:

 

 

The following orange RMC hoppers are also constructed from NGS kits. I really need to weather both rakes but they are both colourful trains.

 

 

G.

 

 

[petrovich]

I am pleased to say that I have one of those LNER linen maps. Where it came from I know not, but it is safely tucked away.

 

All this talk of A3s and their names but I have never seen "Trigo" or "Firdaussi" mentioned - I have both. The latter is a Wills kit and the first is Proscale but The valve gear is mostly scratchbuilt.

 

Slide2132A.jpg

 

Slide2128A.jpg

 

ArthurK

That is superb work Arthur, seasons greetings to you.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Edited December 26, 2018 by petrovich

[St Enodoc]

Example of RTR conversion (Weardale being local to me). Dapol original and Peco 9' underframe.

Those Peco underframes still cut the mustard after about six decades.

[EHertsGER]

Don't forget this fine vessel when talking about Enterprise...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Enterprise_(H88)

A distant family member was in command of the USS Enterprise in action agaist HMS Boxer. The action was described in Longfellow’s ‘My Lost Youth’

 

Best,

M

Edited December 27, 2018 by EHertsGER

[EHertsGER]

A distant family member was in command of the USS Enterprise in action agaist HMS Boxer.31A30DC9-F92A-4EC7-954B-0C1477226583.png

Best,

M

William Ward Burrows (the younger); his father was the first Commandant General of the USMC (no, not Samuel Nicholas; he was de facto Commandant of the Continental Marines...). USS Burrows x 3 named after him. The elder Burrows worked alongside Thomas Jefferson in drafting the US constitution and, as I understand, it is held in family apocrypha that our crest was the inspiration for the great seal of the United States.

Yes, it’s the wrong way round - it’s a seal, so comes out the right way on documents.

Edited December 27, 2018 by EHertsGER

[jwealleans]

 

Can you please remind me what you used for those excellent shackles?

 

Credit to Dave Hammersley, Phil - I went through how I did them starting here but they're all Roxey components.  Ambis do something similar which I have used as well.

Edited December 27, 2018 by jwealleans

[CF MRC]

Back to trains, and wagons in particular. The following rakes of wagons were all built from NGS kits (N/2mm). Firstly a set of five auto-ballasters. Bachmann/Farish produced their own RTR version (after the NGS released their kit) but AFAIC the RTR ones don't have the same level of finesse as the kit built ones:

 

100_1025.JPG

 

The following orange RMC hoppers are also constructed from NGS kits. I really need to weather both rakes but they are both colourful trains.

 

hopper train.jpg

 

G.

Grahame, I hope you have a road bridge with ‘Free Nelson Mandela - with every packet of cornflakes’ on it or, ‘George Davis is innocent’

 

Excellent atmosphere in those shots.

 

Tim

[St Enodoc]

Grahame, I hope you have a road bridge with ‘Free Nelson Mandela - with every packet of cornflakes’ on it or, ‘George Davis is innocent’

 

Excellent atmosphere in those shots.

 

Tim

Showing your age there, Tim. How about "Marples Must Go"?

[grahame]

Grahame, I hope you have a road bridge with ‘Free Nelson Mandela - with every packet of cornflakes’ on it or, ‘George Davis is innocent’

 

Excellent atmosphere in those shots.

 

Tim

 

Many thanks - that's very encouraging especially from the master of CF.

 

Unfortunately I sold that layout, 'Stoney Lane Depot', a few years ago. Currently I'm working on a replacement; 'London Bridge'. But here's a couple more shots of SLD, hopefully also with some atmosphere:

 

 

 

 

G

[grahame]

Further to the pics above, if anyone is interested, the class 416 2-EPB is made from BHE etched brass sides over Graham Farish Mk1 coaches, TPM cast resin cab ends, Ultima etched truss rods and BHE cast white metal underframe equipment, motorised with a cut down Farish class 170 chassis. All the buildings (except the Portacabins [Knightwing], SR platelayers hut [Ratio] and a couple of garden sheds) and including the concrete works and SR current supply transformers are scratch built - mainly from cardboard covered in brick-paper but supplemented with plasticard.

 

G.

[jamie92208]

Many thanks - that's very encouraging especially from the master of CF.

 

Unfortunately I sold that layout, 'Stoney Lane Depot', a few years ago. Currently I'm working on a replacement; 'London Bridge'. But here's a couple more shots of SLD, hopefully also with some atmosphere:

 

T SLD 02.jpg

 

T SLD 10.jpg

 

T SLD 07.jpg

 

G

I remember seeing SLD at Nottingham and booking it for Wakefield. I thought it was a good layout.

 

It's interesting that so many of us have an interest in warships and naval history. When my kids were young and I couldn't work on my layout in the loft I did a lot of ship modelling. After a couple of Billings kits (Smit Rotterdam and Cutty Sark) I decided to scratchbuild HMS Conqueror the early super dreadnought. I did a lot of research and assembled quite a portfolio of photos, as well as getting a quite accurate plug at 1:96 of the hull nearly finished. Growing kids and model railways then interfered and ship modelling never really resumed. When we left the house in Leeds I managed to sell the Smit Rotterdam and the Conqueror plug on Ebay. I couldn't find the photo portfolio but have now found it and will be delivering it to Kettering on the way back to the ferry today. If anyone is interested there is an excellent book called "The Battleship Builders" that details how the UK built the equivalent of a nuclear deterrent. It covers the engineering, the politics and the economics of how the Grans Fleet was created.

 

 

Jamie

[bbishop]

Graham,

 

Bit out of date, the pub would be boarded up by now.

 

Bill

[Clive Mortimore]

Graham,

 

Bit out of date, the pub would be boarded up by now.

 

Bill

Hi Bill

 

Or renamed with a naval theme, the Fore Sail.

[Hollar]

Well, I have managed to get out of bed, but not started the new build.

However, below are some of the good vehicles I have built over the last five years or so.

I find trucks and wagons quite fascinating, and there are so many to make!

 

Post_08.JPG

 

NBR 3 Axle Van. Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol3.

 

 Post_02 - Small.JPG

 

GNR 19' Van Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol1. (buffers to be replaced having been sourced from Mr Trice and Shapeways.)

 

Post_23.JPG

 

GNR 16'Van Scratchbuilt from data in Tatlow Vol1 (buffers as above)

 

Post_31.JPG

 

LMS vans - kits, cross-kits, and RTR conversion. Data from Essery Vol1.

 

Post_20.JPG

 

Ex-NER MAC L Scratchbuilt in brass (and it did look pretty in brass) from data In Tatlow Vol2 and other sources .

 

Post_D14.JPG

 

NER D14 Adapted from elderly Triang model

 

Post_D15.JPG

 

NER D15. An early scratchbuild about seven or so years ago. There is always room to learn and improve!

 

Post_02.JPG

 

Example of RTR conversion (Weardale being local to me). Dapol original and Peco 9' underframe.

 

Post_s3.JPG

 

Ex GC three plank dropside. Scratchbuilt from data In Tatlow Vol1

 

Post_05.jpg

 

An then we start the cattle wagons. These are conversions to 10' wheelbase from the Parkside kit. Data from Tatlow and Mr Banks website.

(I have done more conversions of this kit, and from the notorious Oxford model, but I've already posted pictures of some of these earlier in this thread.

 

Post_06.jpg

 

But for an LNER layout there should probably be more LMS design cattle wagons than LNER ones, so here are some. These are from the Parkside kit, with modifications from Essery Vol1. These are piped vehicles.

 

Post_14.JPG

 

And with a bit of cross-kitting, here is the fitted version.

 

Post_08.JPG

 

And to show I can use white-metal as well. Here is an ex NER vehicle.

 

There are more cattle wagon kits in the kit box, and perhaps tomorrow I will be able to start another LMS one, and this one can end up in bauxite - just for a change.

 

To conclude, and to show how annoying it is when someone produces an RTR vehicle when you have just made a model, here is a Parkside CCT.

 

Post_24.JPG

 

I may not be a perfect modeller, but I like a challenge and I like my vehicles to look as though they work on a coal-fired, coal-hauling railway.

 

Now, something to haul a fitted freight - what's happened to my V2.........

And a similar frustration occurs when you have put in a bit of effort to add those last little refinements to a really nice RTR model of the BR cattle wagon, and along comes the latest Scalefour News with the unwelcome information that it is several feet too long.  Which of course it is.  I'm finishing the paint job today, but I haven't decided yet whether to segregate them from my lovely detailed Airfix conversions, or sell the damn things on eBay and hope to get my money back - if not my time.

 

As was said earlier, there is a casual carelessness about RTR wagon production that ranks alongside to their loco products 30 years ago.  I am looking forward to Accurascale's first steam-age wagons.  Perhaps they can be persuaded to produce at least one of those 5-plank open goods wagons that we so lack as accurate RTRs.

 

Tone

[Hollar]

Hi Bill

 

Or renamed with a naval theme, the Fore Sail.

Presumably with prospective buyers outside jibbing at the price.

 

Sorry about that, must be the hangover,

 

Tone

[bbishop]

Meanwhile a microbrewery would have opened in one of the arches.

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks - that's very encouraging especially from the master of CF.

 

Unfortunately I sold that layout, 'Stoney Lane Depot', a few years ago. Currently I'm working on a replacement; 'London Bridge'. But here's a couple more shots of SLD, hopefully also with some atmosphere:

 

T SLD 02.jpg

 

T SLD 10.jpg

 

T SLD 07.jpg

 

G

That's everything which N Gauge should be, Grahame - beautifully-done.

 

Why then, with such inspiration, do we still see far too many N Gauge layouts which shout out 'Because we can cram masses of stuff into a small space, let's'? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.