Wright writes.....

[robertcwp]

15 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

I know the 'Lizzie' rake was strengthened on Saturdays (at the north end), but a BG (of some description) was often at the south end.

 

As here...........

 

 

60030 on the southbound set ascending Gamston Bank. Headboard (correctly) reversed. 

 

Though this shot isn't pin-sharp, it looks like the two extra carriages are in carmine/cream.

 

 

 

Here we have the set as described by you, with a BR Mk.1 SK as the leading vehicle, on Saturday 28th of September 1960. 

 

'Magnificent MERLIN' has the Up service, with the headboard (correctly) reversed, approaching York Station. One of the pair of strengtheners is in carmine/cream. 

 

In this shot below, the headboard is incorrectly-displayed......

 

 

By FALCON, heading north out of York on the same day. 

 

The pair of strengtheners are between the Aberdeen Mk. 1 pair and the main train (mainly made up of the PV Thompsons, but with a Gresley RF). Interestingly, one of the strentheners is what looks like an end-door Gresley TK (by this time SK). 

 

I only run the weekday 'Lizzie' on Little Bytham (southbound), as it used to run on Stoke Summit. 

 

What an interesting period of our railways' history this was. Inconceivable today - extra carriages added at weekends because of demand! 

 

Please (all) respect copyright restrictions on these images. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Arrangements might have varied from year to year although as the extras were marked in the carriage workings I have as "King's Cross to secure" or "Edinburgh to secure" they probably used whatever was available. The extras were listed as being immediately to the south of the Aberdeen section in the northbound train, with one of the extras running through to Aberdeen in 1958 and 1961. 

 

The shot of 60025 illustrates perfectly the headboard issue (ie being used in error on a Saturday).

 

One of the Thompson RFs was damaged by fire in August 1959 and was replaced by a Gresley RF, which then became a regular in one set.

 

1961 saw a Mark 1 FK and RUO in the set and the restoration of the second with ladies' retiring room, as there was no longer such a facility in the FK.

[john new]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

..... snipped ......

 

 

PAPYRUS, also on 36A, at round about the period Retford is set.

 

.... snipped ....

 

 

How common was that ring of extra rivets on the smokebox door? I haven't noticed them before on other A3s. I am guessing holding on an inner shield plate.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, john new said:

How common was that ring of extra rivets on the smokebox door? I haven't noticed them before on other A3s. I am guessing holding on an inner shield plate.

Good evening John,

 

I don't know. I'll check on some other A3 pictures...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Arrangements might have varied from year to year although as the extras were marked in the carriage workings I have as "King's Cross to secure" or "Edinburgh to secure" they probably used whatever was available. The extras were listed as being immediately to the south of the Aberdeen section in the northbound train, with one of the extras running through to Aberdeen in 1958 and 1961. 

 

The shot of 60025 illustrates perfectly the headboard issue (ie being used in error on a Saturday).

 

One of the Thompson RFs was damaged by fire in August 1959 and was replaced by a Gresley RF, which then became a regular in one set.

 

1961 saw a Mark 1 FK and RUO in the set and the restoration of the second with ladies' retiring room, as there was no longer such a facility in the FK.

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a picture in one of my books showing 'The Elizabethan' hauled by a Deltic in 1962 - obviously not non-stop then, and the last year the train ran. Though much of the stock is Mk.1 by then, the RF is still that Gresley one.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Arrangements might have varied from year to year although as the extras were marked in the carriage workings I have as "King's Cross to secure" or "Edinburgh to secure" they probably used whatever was available. The extras were listed as being immediately to the south of the Aberdeen section in the northbound train, with one of the extras running through to Aberdeen in 1958 and 1961. 

 

The shot of 60025 illustrates perfectly the headboard issue (ie being used in error on a Saturday).

 

One of the Thompson RFs was damaged by fire in August 1959 and was replaced by a Gresley RF, which then became a regular in one set.

 

1961 saw a Mark 1 FK and RUO in the set and the restoration of the second with ladies' retiring room, as there was no longer such a facility in the FK.

Me again,

 

There is a splendid picture (plate 38) in Colin Walker's Eastern Region Steam Twilight, Part Two, North of Grantham showing MERLIN on the Down Saturday 'Lizzie' at Grantham, with headboard (correctly) reversed, in 1960. The extra carriages are two Mk.1s, sandwiched between the Aberdeen portion and the main body of the train (Thompson PV stock). 

 

Colin Walker's books have some splendid imagery, most-useful to modellers, but I wish some of it wasn't printed so darkly.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Regarding Different carriages in 'The Elizabethan', a glance at Profile of the A4s, by Whiteley and Morrison (OPC, 1985), reveals 60024 heading the Down 'Elizabethan' (headboard looks to be light blue) on the 17th of July 1961 (was that a Saturday?). The third carriage is a Gresley end-door SK and the fourth one a standard Thomson SK. Very unusual if it's the weekday service. 

[LNER4479]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

Colin Walker's books have some splendid imagery, most-useful to modellers, but I wish some of it wasn't printed so darkly.

 

It always seemed to be raining when he visited Grantham!

 

Whilst I'm on, that picture of 60068 on the running-in turn? It was published in BRILL Annual No.6 1997. Picture credited to John Aylard and shows the loco exiting Wood Green tunnel with the 4.5pm Class C Goods from King's Cross. Must be early 1960s; loco has the double pot and electrification warning flashes but no 'elephants ears' - I don't believe that any of the 12C quartet ever had them fitted (thank goodness!)

 

I bought said Annual due to the lead article on Carlisle, including a remarkable 2-page complete trackplan of the whole Carlisle area!

[Tony Wright]

30 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening John,

 

I don't know. I'll check on some other A3 pictures...............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Me again John,

 

Extra studs on an A3's smokebox door seem very rare............

 

However............

 

 

They appear to be (just) evident on 60063's 'door, standing on Retford Shed (GN). 

 

Looking through more A3 pictures, I came across this one below..............

 

 

No studs, but more evidence of clean Scottish-based locos south of Doncaster; PAPYRUS at Eaton Wood heading north.

 

The train is interesting (a running-in turn?), with three Mk.1 BGs leading, then three (what look to be) Gresleys, then two more Mk.1s and a van. I cannot find this formation in any of my BR CWNs. 

 

Despite my best efforts, I cannot find a picture of a dirty Scottish-based loco south of Doncaster.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

19 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

It always seemed to be raining when he visited Grantham!

 

Whilst I'm on, that picture of 60068 on the running-in turn? It was published in BRILL Annual No.6 1997. Picture credited to John Aylard and shows the loco exiting Wood Green tunnel with the 4.5pm Class C Goods from King's Cross. Must be early 1960s; loco has the double pot and electrification warning flashes but no 'elephants ears' - I don't believe that any of the 12C quartet ever had them fitted (thank goodness!)

 

I bought said Annual due to the lead article on Carlisle, including a remarkable 2-page complete trackplan of the whole Carlisle area!

Good evening Graham,

 

You're correct, Canal's quartet of A3s never got German blinkers (among others), and they never got AWS, either. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[john new]

5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Me again John,

 

Extra studs on an A3's smokebox door seem very rare............

 

However............

 

 

They appear to be (just) evident on 60063's 'door, standing on Retford Shed (GN). 

 

Looking through more A3 pictures, I came across this one below..............

 

 

No studs, but more evidence of clean Scottish-based locos south of Doncaster; PAPYRUS at Eaton Wood heading north.

 

The train is interesting (a running-in turn?), with three Mk.1 BGs leading, then three (what look to be) Gresleys, then two more Mk.1s and a van. I cannot find this formation in any of my BR CWNs. 

 

Despite my best efforts, I cannot find a picture of a dirty Scottish-based loco south of Doncaster.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Didn't think I had noticed them before. Thanks for looking.

[robertcwp]

34 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Me again,

 

There is a splendid picture (plate 38) in Colin Walker's Eastern Region Steam Twilight, Part Two, North of Grantham showing MERLIN on the Down Saturday 'Lizzie' at Grantham, with headboard (correctly) reversed, in 1960. The extra carriages are two Mk.1s, sandwiched between the Aberdeen portion and the main body of the train (Thompson PV stock). 

 

Colin Walker's books have some splendid imagery, most-useful to modellers, but I wish some of it wasn't printed so darkly.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I agree, great photos but perhaps the printing could have been better. His 'Main Line Lament' is one of my favourite books.

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a picture in one of my books showing 'The Elizabethan' hauled by a Deltic in 1962 - obviously not non-stop then, and the last year the train ran. Though much of the stock is Mk.1 by then, the RF is still that Gresley one.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Yes, in 1962, I believe the only Thompson PV carriage to remain was the second with ladies' retiring room. One set had a Gresley RF and if I recall correctly the other one had a Mark 1 RU. The BGs were Thompson but other stock was Mark 1, mostly on Commonwealth bogies.

 

D9021_Elizabethan_York_1962 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited January 15, 2023 by robertcwp
Changed the image for a better one.

[robertcwp]

On 14/01/2023 at 11:04, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mark,

 

I don't know about left-hand and right-hand buffers on LNER stock. 

 

I've got three of the old Bachmann Thompson BGs (none in original condition).

 

 

The principal modification is to alter the roof profile by taking off the sharp angle just above the cantrail. Additions of footboards help as well.

 

The end board is by MJT, stuck on to the original gangway. Comet produces cast/etched Thompson gangways.

 

This carriage now runs on Retford, having been re-gauged to EM.

 

I must have a look at this carriage the next time I visit Retford. There are a few other old Bachmann Thompson BGs on the layout but I don't know whether their roofs have been altered. I think it's unfortunate that Bachmann omitted the BG when they did their excellent new Thompson stock. 

[davidw]

22 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I must have a look at this carriage the next time I visit Retford. There are a few other old Bachmann Thompson BGs on the layout but I don't know whether their roofs have been altered. I think it's unfortunate that Bachmann omitted the BG when they did their excellent new Thompson stock. 

Bizarrely Bachmann do have a Thompson BG in their Farish range. Courtesy of the "n gauge society". From what a friend says they sold well. It's a very good model.  So Bachmann have the CAD, it may appear in 4mm at some point.  But when....

[robertcwp]

9 minutes ago, davidw said:

Bizarrely Bachmann do have a Thompson BG in their Farish range. Courtesy of the "n gauge society". From what a friend says they sold well. It's a very good model.  So Bachmann have the CAD, it may appear in 4mm at some point.  But when....

Interesting! The BG offers more liveries than the other types too. 

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Me again John,

 

Extra studs on an A3's smokebox door seem very rare............

 

However............

 

 

They appear to be (just) evident on 60063's 'door, standing on Retford Shed (GN). 

 

Looking through more A3 pictures, I came across this one below..............

 

 

No studs, but more evidence of clean Scottish-based locos south of Doncaster; PAPYRUS at Eaton Wood heading north.

 

The train is interesting (a running-in turn?), with three Mk.1 BGs leading, then three (what look to be) Gresleys, then two more Mk.1s and a van. I cannot find this formation in any of my BR CWNs. 

 

Despite my best efforts, I cannot find a picture of a dirty Scottish-based loco south of Doncaster.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

There is a 1957 Eric Treacy shot of 60055 on the White Rose at Belle Isle and it has the studs. It's in The Best of Eric Treacy page 174. I'm pretty sure it was taken the same day as his photo of 60022 on The Elizabethan at the same location, which is clearly from 1957 and narrows it down to 18 days that summer.

[john new]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

I agree, great photos but perhaps the printing could have been better. His 'Main Line Lament' is one of my favourite books.

One of the regular criticisms in my SLS book reviews is poor and inconsistent image reproduction. I guess a compromise for Editors/compositors between getting a book out to a price or spending a lot of time in the digital darkroom tweaking the images. Inconsistency when some in the book are good and some poor, so you know it isn’t down to things like variable paper grade etc.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, john new said:

One of the regular criticisms in my SLS book reviews is poor and inconsistent image reproduction. I guess a compromise for Editors/compositors between getting a book out to a price or spending a lot of time in the digital darkroom tweaking the images. Inconsistency when some in the book are good and some poor, so you know it isn’t down to things like variable paper grade etc.

 

Can you be sure this isn't down to variable quality of the original photos (negative or print)? Sometimes a sub-par image may be included for the interest of its subject matter rather than its merit as an example of the photographer's art.

[john new]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Can you be sure this isn't down to variable quality of the original photos (negative or print)? Sometimes a sub-par image may be included for the interest of its subject matter rather than its merit as an example of the photographer's art.

Yes, I am sure some are poor negs (a lot of my own early one’s are) but I have used photoshop enough over many, many years to know that most can be improved from overall bland grey to something better. It is a time/cost constraint though for commercial publications.

[Tony Wright]

I have many of Colin Walker's books, and I've found them invaluable (many of his photographs illustrate the ECML, including several taken at Little Bytham). Occasionally, the captions aren't 'dead right', but, having written several books myself (nowhere as many as Colin), that's always a 'hostage to fortune' situation. That said, my books of his contain fewer scribblings in the margins than several others I could mention - do others write corrections/notes in the margins of their books?

 

I was told by one publisher that he wanted his images reproduced 'darkly'. A pity, because much in the way of detail is then lost.

 

Reproduction does vary. Some of his smaller 'Trails of Steam' series have better reproduction than in his two large volumes; Eastern Region Steam Twilight.

 

He must rate as one of the best photographers of BR steam. I never met him, but I've chatted to his son. 

[LNER4479]

45 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

He must rate as one of the best photographers of BR steam. I never met him, but I've chatted to his son. 

Now then Tony. Is that you being deliberately provocative again? You at least need to define what you mean by 'best' ... which is distinctly different from 'prolific'?

 

W J V Anderson is right up there in my view. And there was a certain clergyman from Wakefield who was no slouch with the shutter either.

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Now then Tony. Is that you being deliberately provocative again? You at least need to define what you mean by 'best' ... which is distinctly different from 'prolific'?

 

W J V Anderson is right up there in my view. And there was a certain clergyman from Wakefield who was no slouch with the shutter either.

Peter Gray, Dick Riley...

[robertcwp]

11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Peter Gray, Dick Riley...

George Heiron too.

[St Enodoc]

13 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

George Heiron too.

Ivo Peters.

[Dunsignalling]

Hugh Ballantyne, too.

 

The talent of all these (and many more) shines through all the more because most of them were using what, by modern standards, was quite modest hardware.

 

Post WW2 trade limitations meant it was very hard for non-professionals to obtain state-of-the-art equipment.

 

John