Wright writes.....

[richard i]

8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Then deduct 1.0mm for the thickness of the two top hat bearing flanges, another .5mm for clearance and twice the thickness of the frames material to get the distance between the insides of the frames. That's the width of the spacers you need.

Thank you to both you and Bill. 
one question is your 0.5 mm clearance 0.25 for each side or 0.5 for both sides? 
I thought someone might give me a number but both your calculations allow the maths to be done accurately.

many thanks

richard 

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, polybear said:

 

I just Googled that Auction and whilst some failed to achieve their reserve, many far exceeded it - some by as much as two or three times.

Thanks Brian,

 

My overall impression was that several models didn't make as much as expected. Perhaps it's the ones I saw after they'd been bought by folks I know which were those. 'Real bargains' I was told. Speaking with others afterwards, there seemed to be a general disappointment at how low some models sold for, but, perhaps I've gleaned the wrong impression. 

 

I knew David Jenkinson quite well, having worked for and with him on a few projects related to Modellers' Back Track. His view was that anything weathered (and thus more-realistic?) wouldn't achieve as much as a pristine equivalent. 

 

Did the auction indicate what his BRITISH LEGION went for? That was an outstanding model, scratch-built by Geoff Holt. I believe there was another Royal Scot as well. I was commissioned by David to travel up to North Wales to photograph three Royal Scots which Geoff was making in O Gauge. The commission was for Modellers' Back Track, and the article came out very well. Does anyone have a copy? I gave mine away years ago. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[polybear]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Brian,

 

My overall impression was that several models didn't make as much as expected. Perhaps it's the ones I saw after they'd been bought by folks I know which were those. 'Real bargains' I was told. Speaking with others afterwards, there seemed to be a general disappointment at how low some models sold for, but, perhaps I've gleaned the wrong impression. 

 

I knew David Jenkinson quite well, having worked for and with him on a few projects related to Modellers' Back Track. His view was that anything weathered (and thus more-realistic?) wouldn't achieve as much as a pristine equivalent. 

 

Did the auction indicate what his BRITISH LEGION went for? That was an outstanding model, scratch-built by Geoff Holt. I believe there was another Royal Scot as well. I was commissioned by David to travel up to North Wales to photograph three Royal Scots which Geoff was making in O Gauge. The commission was for Modellers' Back Track, and the article came out very well. Does anyone have a copy? I gave mine away years ago. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

British Legion was one of those that failed to make the estimate of £2000 - £2500; it sold for £1680: others did much better, such as an LMS Standard Class 5 selling for £3840.  Some of the buildings did rather well also - a two-road engine shed achieved £480 (still a bargain) that was only estimated at £40 - £60:

 

https://www.christies.com/en/auction/locos-and-stock-from-the-collection-of-the-late-d-jenkinson-19824/

[uax6]

Do we know where any of this stock actually went, and if it still survives to this day?

 

Andy G

[Tony Wright]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

British Legion was one of those that failed to make the estimate of £2000 - £2500; it sold for £1680: others did much better, such as an LMS Standard Class 5 selling for £3840.  Some of the buildings did rather well also - a two-road engine shed achieved £480 (still a bargain) that was only estimated at £40 - £60:

 

https://www.christies.com/en/auction/locos-and-stock-from-the-collection-of-the-late-d-jenkinson-19824/

Thanks Brian,

 

I think the Crab might have been a Beeson loco; hence its high price. 

 

There were still several high-quality locos which sold below expectation.

 

This one, for instance............

 

 

A superb Geoff Holt-built Claughton.

 

I had the privilege of photographing Kendal Castle (much of which was built by Norman Solomon) not long after David Jenkinson died. His widow wanted it recorded for posterity prior to it being broken up (an incredibly brave thing for her to suggest, at his funeral!), which I did; the pictures of which should be in BRM's archive. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[polybear]

6 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Do we know where any of this stock actually went, and if it still survives to this day?

 

Andy G

 

As the Auction was almost 20 years ago it's quite possible that the buyers of some items may also have travelled to the Great Engine Shed in the Sky, only for their families to have no idea of the value of their collection and binned it....

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, polybear said:

 

As the Auction was almost 20 years ago it's quite possible that the buyers of some items may also have travelled to the Great Engine Shed in the Sky, only for their families to have no idea of the value of their collection and binned it....

Good evening again Brian,

 

Michael Warner (the originator of BRM) bought several items from the auction. After his death, I have no idea what happened to the models, though his sons would have been aware of their value. If they still have them, I have no idea (it's none of my business), but when I used to visit him (both of us living in the village), there the models were (including BRITISH LEGION, if my memory serves), proudly displayed in glass cases.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[polybear]

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Brian,

 

I think the Crab might have been a Beeson loco; hence its high price. 

 

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that (at today's % rates) there was buyer's premium (28% + 17.5% VAT) to pay, which would add another £1173 to the hammer price - so the Beeson Loco actually cost the buyer £5013.

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, richard i said:

Thank you to both you and Bill. 
one question is your 0.5 mm clearance 0.25 for each side or 0.5 for both sides? 
I thought someone might give me a number but both your calculations allow the maths to be done accurately.

many thanks

richard 

Richard,

 

.5mm overall (.25mm per side) should be enough for a 4-4-0. The bogie will probably have some lateral movement - although that depends on the kit, which you didn't identify - so only a working clearance on the driving wheels is required.

 

Jol

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

Thank you to both you and Bill. 
one question is your 0.5 mm clearance 0.25 for each side or 0.5 for both sides? 
I thought someone might give me a number but both your calculations allow the maths to be done accurately.

 

 

Measuring the bearing flange thickness is more straightforward than what you've been trying. Don't assume all manufacturers use identical dimensions. 

[Camperdown]

12 hours ago, polybear said:

 

British Legion was one of those that failed to make the estimate of £2000 - £2500; it sold for £1680: others did much better, such as an LMS Standard Class 5 selling for £3840.  Some of the buildings did rather well also - a two-road engine shed achieved £480 (still a bargain) that was only estimated at £40 - £60:

 

https://www.christies.com/en/auction/locos-and-stock-from-the-collection-of-the-late-d-jenkinson-19824/

The prices do seem low, given the superb quality of most of the items.  David Jenkinson wrote (in MRJ?) about switching to 7mm scale and being careful to make the resale value of his models as high as possible.  Christie's seems an odd choice for a specialist auction, but then since DJ was well aware of resale value then this is probably something he discussed with his wife before he died, and Christie's may well have been his choice.  (No knowledge here, just speculating).

 

On the subject of friction fit drivers, I appreciate the practical experience of people who see (say, with the Finney A3) the quartering slip under heavy load.  It's happened to me too.  But my question is, what do they do at Pendon?  Plenty of locos there with Ultrascale drivers pulling scale length trains.

[Chuffer Davies]

23 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

The prices do seem low, given the superb quality of most of the items.  David Jenkinson wrote (in MRJ?) about switching to 7mm scale and being careful to make the resale value of his models as high as possible.  Christie's seems an odd choice for a specialist auction, but then since DJ was well aware of resale value then this is probably something he discussed with his wife before he died, and Christie's may well have been his choice.  (No knowledge here, just speculating).

 

On the subject of friction fit drivers, I appreciate the practical experience of people who see (say, with the Finney A3) the quartering slip under heavy load.  It's happened to me too.  But my question is, what do they do at Pendon?  Plenty of locos there with Ultrascale drivers pulling scale length trains.

Guy Williams definitely wrote about drilling and pinning friction fit drivers onto the axles of some of the models he built.  I am not convinced that mechanically this would prevent any slip from occurring because of the malleability of the plastic; surely the wheels would still twist slightly before the pin finally locked the wheel from moving further?

As someone who has used friction fit drivers extensively running heavy trains around the Hungerford exhibition layout, I do not pin my drivers but always Loctite them onto their axles during final assembly.  The join can be broken if necessary at a later date but it needs considerable finger force to do so, and far more than a model motor could excerpt. 
The one failure I have had with this approach was when the centre hub of a Gibson wheel developed a fine crack down to the axle reducing the pressure gripping the wheel against the axle.
In my opinion the activity, if anything, that is going to crack the joint is when the power is removed from the loco suddenly (i.e.a sudden short) and the whole weight of the train is then pushing against the motor driven axle.  This sudden force might be sufficient to do it.  This is unlikely to happen with Portescap motors (used extensively by Guy) because the gearbox can work in reverse and the wheels can then drive the motor avoiding the lock up that will occur with a worm driven gearbox.

Frank

Edited April 29, 2023 by Chuffer Davies
Word substitution

[Camperdown]

3 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Guy Williams definitely wrote about drilling and pinning friction fit drivers onto the axles of some of the models he built.  I am not convinced that mechanically this would prevent any slip from occurring because of the malleability of the plastic; surely the wheels would still twist slightly before the pin finally locked the wheel from moving further?

As someone who has used friction fit drivers extensively running heavy trains around the Hungerford exhibition layout, I do not pin my drivers but always Loctite them onto their axles during final assembly.  The join can be broken if necessary at a later date but it needs considerable finger force to do so, and far more than a model motor could excerpt. 
The one failure I have had with this approach was when the centre hub of a Gibson wheel developed a fine crack down to the axle reducing the pressure gripping the wheel against the axle.
In my opinion the activity, if anything, that is going to crack the joint is when the power is removed from the loco suddenly (i.e.a sudden short) and the whole weight of the train is then pushing against the motor driven axle.  This sudden force might be sufficient to do it.  This is unlikely to happen with Portescap motors (used extensively by Guy) because the gearbox can work in reverse and the wheels can then drive the motor avoiding the lock up that will cover with a worm driven gearbox.

Frank

I can't remember Guy Williams writing about pinning Ultrascales, but it was certainly something that John Hayes did and described.  Appreciate hearing about your experience with Loctite for Hungerford.  Perhaps the key here is "friction fit" and that cylindrical axles will work with smooth bore wheels under heavy loads, providing there is something more than just friction to transmit the torque.

 

All positive experiences welcome.

[Michael Edge]

I assume that the Pendon locos have their wheels pinned to the axles, Graham Varley used to do this with Ultrascale wheels for the locos on Carlisle and they definitely never shift on the axles - he pinned them by drilling a small hole through the wheel boss and into the axle at an angle and then pressing a wire into it. Gibson wheels are a bit different, most of them grip the axles well enough but this does vary with different wheel sizes, if in doubt (and always with Ultrascale) I knurl the axle ends before fitting the wheels - easily done by rolling them with a file. We have had occasional shifted wheels on the Carlisle locos, they do work a lot harder than most, but this isn't exactly unknown in the full size world either and their wheels are always keyed to the axles. I have seen huge damage to motion work from Romford/Markits wheels when a nut has worked loose unnoticed so it's not confined to friction fit.

I've not seen one fail in the event of a sudden stop, it usually happens on starting but nearly all the Carlisle locos have Portescaps anyway - in full size it usually happens on starting under heavy load.

[Tony Wright]

As I've said on several occasions, I cannot get on with friction-fit drivers. I accept that it's probably down to me, but some locos I've had through my hands built by others, which employ the system, have displayed evidence of their wheels shifting on their axles under heavy load. I have to say I'm rather 'suspicious' of a product which needs alteration before its truly fit for purpose. Whoever built that Finney A3 did a beautiful job, and it ran like silk; light engine on test. It was only when it was expected to do in model form what the real things did full-sized that the weaknesses became apparent. Definitely not a 'layout loco' (though it is now, with Markits drivers), but one built for a glass case existence; which is all the late owner of it wanted. 

 

If an axle nut comes loose on a Romford/Markits driver, the evidence of it is usually pretty conclusive before any damage can be done, at least in my experience. The wheel will usually wobble, giving the loco a 'rocky' look, and it would have to come off the axle completely before the quartering altered.

 

Perhaps the nut could come loose, but the wheel remain relatively firm, and the nut could protrude and catch the motion. I don't know, but I've never had one come loose in service; I tighten them us as much as my strength allows! 

[Camperdown]

11 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I assume that the Pendon locos have their wheels pinned to the axles, Graham Varley used to do this with Ultrascale wheels for the locos on Carlisle and they definitely never shift on the axles - he pinned them by drilling a small hole through the wheel boss and into the axle at an angle and then pressing a wire into it. Gibson wheels are a bit different, most of them grip the axles well enough but this does vary with different wheel sizes, if in doubt (and always with Ultrascale) I knurl the axle ends before fitting the wheels - easily done by rolling them with a file. We have had occasional shifted wheels on the Carlisle locos, they do work a lot harder than most, but this isn't exactly unknown in the full size world either and their wheels are always keyed to the axles. I have seen huge damage to motion work from Romford/Markits wheels when a nut has worked loose unnoticed so it's not confined to friction fit.

I've not seen one fail in the event of a sudden stop, it usually happens on starting but nearly all the Carlisle locos have Portescaps anyway - in full size it usually happens on starting under heavy load.

Thanks for that.  I'm currently trying to wrangle a DMR Z class into shape and knurling the axles sounds a better bet (for the Gibson drivers) than pinning.  The folks who drill obliquely through wheel and axle must go through an awful lot of small drill bits.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I usually only pin the wheels on the geared axle as that is where the torque is transmitted to the wheels. I use a technique suggested by a friend which involves gutting a small slot using a piercing saw at an angle of approx. 45 degrees into the end of the axle. When the wheels have been fitted and quartered I then drill along the slot up into the wheel centre and fit a wire pin. A coat of paint will disguise the slot.

 

The attached photo shows the wheel before painting the axle end. Even unpainted it is less obvious that a Markits wheel nut.

 

[Tony Wright]

Some driver comparisons...........

 

 

A DJH Austerity from a collection (builder/painter unknown). 

 

Prior to Markits introducing a proper Austerity wheel, DJH used to provide etched overlays to go over ordinary spoked wheels. Though robust and reliable, there was insufficient depth relief.

 

 

 

Weathering might have improved them, though they're still far too 'flat'.

 

The correct-looking alternative was......

 

 

 

The Gibson friction-fit Austerity driver. In appearance, very, very good-looking. 

 

Now, this one came from the same estate as the Finney A3 (built by DJH themselves), but it didn't run smoothly (it had lived all its life in a glass case). On investigation, under load, at least three of the drivers could move on their axles, causing the rods to bind. Two were quite loose (on different axles). Since a non-runner would see little return to a widow, I turned the loose drivers 'twixt finger and thumb until they were correctly-quartered. I then moved them ever so slightly wide of gauge, and applied some runny superglue on to the wheels' axle holes, swiftly pressing them back on to their axles to the correct gauge. It worked, but what a 'fraught with difficulty' procedure. Weird, since the model can hardly have run much. 

 

I also weathered it, and the new owner is very happy.

 

When Tony Geary first built his DJH Austerities, he used the overlays. However, dissatisfied with their appearance, once Markits had introduced the proper Austerity driver................

 

 

 

 

He substituted them, to great effect.

 

Being diligent (unlike me), he plugged the slots in the retaining nuts. 

 

Not being diligent (and even indolent)...............

 

 

 

When I built my own DJH Austerities, I left the slots (a future job).

 

Certainly, Tony's pair and my pair have run countless scale miles on Stoke Summit, Charwelton and now on Little Bytham, without the slightest fuss or failure. Real 'layout locos' I'd like to think of them as, unlike the one with friction-fit drivers (though it should be now). 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I assume that the Pendon locos have their wheels pinned to the axles, Graham Varley used to do this with Ultrascale wheels for the locos on Carlisle and they definitely never shift on the axles - he pinned them by drilling a small hole through the wheel boss and into the axle at an angle and then pressing a wire into it. Gibson wheels are a bit different, most of them grip the axles well enough but this does vary with different wheel sizes, if in doubt (and always with Ultrascale) I knurl the axle ends before fitting the wheels - easily done by rolling them with a file. We have had occasional shifted wheels on the Carlisle locos, they do work a lot harder than most, but this isn't exactly unknown in the full size world either and their wheels are always keyed to the axles. I have seen huge damage to motion work from Romford/Markits wheels when a nut has worked loose unnoticed so it's not confined to friction fit.

I've not seen one fail in the event of a sudden stop, it usually happens on starting but nearly all the Carlisle locos have Portescaps anyway - in full size it usually happens on starting under heavy load.

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, do you knurl the axle ends as well as using, or instead of using,  Loctite.

Frank

[Michael Edge]

I don't use Loctite and most Gibson wheels don't need the knurling, especially if they are only fitted on the axles once which is my normal practice. Ultrascale are extremely prone to slipping on the axles and the last production of Sharman wheels with glass filled nylon centres are just about unshiftable - it depends on material and the force need to press them on.

With regard to wheels shifting on axles Don Townsley tells an interesting tale about the Hunslet 75T 0-6-0DEs built for Normanby Park. They were complaining about them and Don went to have a look, they started one up on a and he saw the driven axle twist in the wheel centre as it took up the heavy load, probably the result of backlash in the complicated gearbox system of what was possibly the worst loco Hunslet ever turned out. 

[t-b-g]

When you have built a few locos with friction fit wheels, you tend to get a good feel as to whether or not you are going to get any problems. There is a real "sweet spot" where they are just a tight enough fit but not too tight.

 

Too tight can lead to distortion of the wheel centres and possibly cracking of the centre boss. Too loose and you get wheels slipping.

 

I find that if I open up the holes with a tapered cutting broach until the axle will just go a tiny way into the back of the wheel without being forced, then that is about right.

 

The notion that friction fit wheels are somehow not "fit for purpose" is a nonsense. Too many people have had good results with them, including me, to make that a valid view.

 

You need to take care and they possibly involve a bit more work, including knurling the axle end, loctiting/supergluing and pinning if necessary.

 

I have used the pinning method on a couple of locos. One was a fix of a loco that somebody else built where the wheels had been forced on and a centre had cracked. A drill and pin sorted that after several attempts at loctiting had failed. The other was my Q4 which had Ultrascale wheels that were not very tight on the axle as supplied. I am sure the stock of steel supplied for axles must have some tiny variance in size and some lengths seemed to be tighter in the same wheel that others. When a loco is already built, drilling and pinning is less destructive than dismantling to knurl the axles. I have used knurling when helping others during construction of locos at Missenden Abbey and it worked a treat.

 

All my other friction fit locos are just that, fitted by friction.

 

My biggest problem with such wheels isn't the fitting, it is that I have come across many that just don't run quite true. That is when a compensated or sprung mechanism really earns its keep as they can iron out any small variations in concentricity.

 

I have had a method of truing them up described to me that I haven't used yet but I will be trying it next time I build a loco with friction fit wheels if they are not running true.

[Keith Turbutt]

14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I had the privilege of photographing Kendal Castle (much of which was built by Norman Solomon) not long after David Jenkinson died. His widow wanted it recorded for posterity prior to it being broken up (an incredibly brave thing for her to suggest, at his funeral!), which I did; the pictures of which should be in BRM's archive. 

 

 

 

I see the discussion has moved on a bit from this thread but the gauge O Guild have made a video, available on Youtube, of David Jenkinson discussing his layout which you might find interesting.

 

In searching for this I also came across Youtube videos with Bob Symes with his 'Lineside look at Model Railways' which is also interesting with lots od familiar names appearing.

 

 

Hope you enjoy it

 

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I tighten them us as much as my strength allows! 

Do you use a spanner on the screwdriver shaft?

[t-b-g]

With a full set of friction fit wheels but no problems with quartering, this is the latest from the workbench of Pete Hill (pete55) having a test run on Retford just now.

 

No doubt Pete can explain how it is done mechanically.

 

It is a scratchbuilt NER Class J. We tested it on the Talisman 8 coach set, fully expecting it to struggle a bit and it sailed round at a good speed too.

 

Who needs pacifics when you can have a cute little loco like this?

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

It is a scratchbuilt NER Class J. We tested it on the Talisman 8 coach set, fully expecting it to struggle a bit and it sailed round at a good speed too.

 

That looks to be a splendid model of a handsome engine. But I hope you will allow me a twinge of regret that it's not been built in original condition as a Worsdell-von Borries 2-cylinder compound. It was in that condition that one achieved 90 mph during a series of tests, which also included hauling 22 (IIRC) 6-wheelers - more than twice as many axles as your Talisman set!