Wright writes.....

[billbedford]

That's why so many people like the idea of working from home...

[gr.king]

No matter how well organised the "team" and the layout might be for assembling and dismantling the layout, I cannot see a case for trying to take even a moderately large layout to a one day show if it also features a sufficient amount of quality, unusual, hand made stock to provide interesting trains/operations for the discerning viewer, as all that stock also has to be set out and then put away again carefully. For me, that makes one day shows almost exclusively the province of small layouts which are generally of little/no interest to me.

 

Big commercial shows the future? I hope not, and feel I'm unlikely to go to many/any if that is the case. Not attractive to exhibitors either if  "big firm" (organiser and/or venue) involvement results in loads of forms to be read, completed and signed plus a 1001 rules and regulations to be followed.

 

The picture advertising the new show in April says almost everything I need to know to confirm my already-settled decision to stay at home.  RTR plastic models of modern "box on wheels" locos with over-bright twinkly lights and a train load of shipping containers on awful track. Just having the biggest ever OO layout because you want to show that you can afford it doesn't make it good. Time that would be taken to get 140miles there and 140 back, the venue itself, and the cost of travel / parking / admission, did nothing to encourage me anyway.

[Tony Wright]

Building the J11 has set my mind back to exhibiting in the past, and how things have changed, especially with regard to locos and stock.

 

In Stoke's early days, Tony Geary built a couple of Little Engines J11 (one with piston valves - a J11/3). It was also BRM's early days, and Tony wrote an article about how he built the pair (one of which appeared on the front cover - anyone got a copy?). 

 

Before too long, such a job was rendered 'unnecessary' with the introduction of Bachmann's J11 (though not a J11/3). 

 

The same was so with the likes of many other loco classes. In a way, providing stock for a large exhibition layout (even in O, if diesels are contemplated) is rather easier, and much quicker; such are the current high standards in RTR. Thus, more time can now be spent on actually building the layout rather than having to make all the stock.

 

Harry Mitchell's Centre was mentioned earlier. Some 44 years ago, when Fordley Park was exhibited there one autumn, I built a loco a week during the summer holidays. These included the likes of a B1 and V2 (Jamieson), two A1s (Wills A2 mods/scratch), an A5 (Craftsman), a K3 (Wills/scratch) and a K1 (scratch). Though complete, not all were even painted, but we had enough locos to get us through...........

 

How much easier it would be today, though considerably less-satisfying? 

[MJI]

14 minutes ago, billbedford said:

That's why so many people like the idea of working from home...

 

I hope to until retirement. The stress of driving into a busy town was not helping my health, lockdown was to me a huge reset.

 

I enjoy the job, but not the commute. Plus company is better here. One working LIKES the office because he can nab someone at any time, but he is too busy to chat. If you cannot chat what is the point?

 

I actually do more work as I am not getting to office just after 9 after being stuck in a jam, I am not getting out dead on 5 to try to avoid jams.

 

And the local specialist I used to look after my Discovery has shut down.

[Dunsignalling]

57 minutes ago, PMP said:

I’m well aware of the logistics of transporting, setting up, running and break down of a large layout. See below attached.

 

Good layout design, good teamwork, and a good venue organiser makes a massive difference to the efficiency and practicality of those elements. Putting up Heaton Lodge above takes about 2.5 days from bare floor to complete, and 12 hours complete to bare floor and one truck loaded. It requires a professional work ethic to do that though, and that gives huge satisfaction to the team to achieve that sequence.

 

If the current stock of big exhibits are becoming no longer practical for the teams that built them that’s unfortunate. However, that opens up opportunities for others if they want to meet that challenge. I note that the layouts listed by Tony are to my knowledge club layouts, a factor no doubt of the era and communications accessibility they were made in. What has been shown with more recent large layouts is they don’t need to be club built, they can be constructed by much smaller dedicated collaborators, working on friends projects. In the US/Can and the EU modular layouts are built and exhibited, something that hasn’t been exploited here to any great degree.

 

Whilst losing the Warley NEC is unfortunate, it might reflect that the traditional club organisation type show requires a very different model in the future. 

 

 

 

 

There seem to be two basic issues involved, the first of which is aggravated by the second. 

 

Over the last couple of decades, the "public" side of our hobby has been heavily buttressed by a large cohort of the early-retired, an option less on offer these days. As the (now) older individuals who were involved in building the layout decide to call a halt to exhibiting, the numbers being brought up to speed on doing it struggles to keep pace, whatever the age of the new recruits.

 

Talking to them, most would like to be more deeply involved more often, but the demands of today's working environment means they have significantly less "spare" time than we did.

 

That reduction seems even more pronounced for those with children, whose social/sporting lives are far more "labour intensive" for their parents than mine was. In the late fifties, my dad had one of only two cars on our street, but "Dad's Taxi" hadn't yet become a thing. If I wanted to go places, I mainly cycled like all my pals.

 

Changing circumstances demand changing solutions, and I expect the number of exhibition appearances per annum for which most clubs/groups can muster a crew from Thursday evening (van loading) to the wee small hours of Monday (unloading it again), will come under ever greater pressure. 

 

John

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[Captain Kernow]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

How much easier it would be today, though considerably less-satisfying? 

I remember back in the mid-late 1990s, when I first started exhibiting my S&D layout 'Engine Wood', I had hardly any suitable locos and stock to run on it. Nearly all the locos had to be built from kits or, in the case of some RTR items, had to have replacement chassis built, to improve the running (mostly the old Mainline split chassis). The only suitable loco I had ready was an Airfix 76XXX mogul with a Kemilway chassis.

Thus over a fairly short time I built: 

- replacement Comet chassis for Mainline 22XX Collett Goods

- Kemilway 82XXX BR standard tank

- replacement Comet chassis for Mainline 75XXX BR Standard

- DJH 80XXX BR standard tank

- replacement Perseverance chassis for Mainline 57XX pannier

- DJH 73XXX BR standard (I used a Hornby BR1G tender for that one)

- replacement Comet chassis and replacement tender (Gibson) for an Airfix 4F

- London Road models ex-Midland 3F 0-6-0 tender loco

- Comet 8F

 

And then, in an equally short period of time, all of the above were either released as RTR models or re-released with improved chassis!

 

But the process of doing it myself and building those kits was immensely satisfying.

 

[PMP]

36 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Amazing Paul!

 

I assume that 'a professional work ethic' means a professional team? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony, No is the simple answer.

The work ethic is just that, “professional” to get the job done safely efficiently and on time. People with specialised skills/experience taking on particular responsibilities in the setting up and down.

Obviously Heaton Lodge is an extreme example, but over the years I’ve noted plenty of layouts big and small with little co-ordination amongst team members, on set up and break downs, wanderers going to different layouts and chatting etc.

 

I’m all too aware of the ‘normal’ two day show routine. I was perhaps different in that I often had to take four days leave to attend a show, as my occupation is 24/7/365, so I don’t see the leave requirement from typical Monday to Friday working as over onerous. The same would be true of a supermarket worker they too would likely need to take more leave to attend a show than a M-F worker. Surely if someone want to exhibit or assist at a show, the inconveniences come with the territory?

 

 

[Harry Lund]

Tony

 

I've been an avid follower of your thread for a couple of years.  Thank you so much.  And to everyone who makes it such and avid read!

 

May I share this article in yesterday's Saturday Telegraph.

 

 

And, in contrast:

 

The enthusiasm shown by Cat Cowan yesterday for our hobby on her Saturday morning show on BBC Radio York.    From 2:39 to 2:47 in.    Kat Cowan on BBC Radio York - 13/01/2024 - BBC Sounds     (Couldn't work out how to copy the link, but just cut and paste into Google takes you to the show recording).

 

Giles 

 

[Dunsignalling]

31 minutes ago, PMP said:

Hi Tony, No is the simple answer.

The work ethic is just that, “professional” to get the job done safely efficiently and on time. People with specialised skills/experience taking on particular responsibilities in the setting up and down.

Obviously Heaton Lodge is an extreme example, but over the years I’ve noted plenty of layouts big and small with little co-ordination amongst team members, on set up and break downs, wanderers going to different layouts and chatting etc.

 

I’m all too aware of the ‘normal’ two day show routine. I was perhaps different in that I often had to take four days leave to attend a show, as my occupation is 24/7/365, so I don’t see the leave requirement from typical Monday to Friday working as over onerous. The same would be true of a supermarket worker they too would likely need to take more leave to attend a show than a M-F worker. Surely if someone want to exhibit or assist at a show, the inconveniences come with the territory?

 

 

In many jobs, around 75% of annual leave is rostered so the amount available for short breaks of any kind is limited and must be husbanded carefully.

 

On the railway, we could also accumulate compensatory leave days for working bank holidays, which helps but not all jobs involve BH working so it's not an option for many. 

 

John

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[zr2498]

50 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

The picture advertising the new show in April says almost everything I need to know to confirm my already-settled decision to stay at home.  RTR plastic models of modern "box on wheels" locos with over-bright twinkly lights and a train load of shipping containers on awful track. Just having the biggest ever OO layout because you want to show that you can afford it doesn't make it good. Time that would be taken to get 140miles there and 140 back, the venue itself, and the cost of travel / parking / admission, did nothing to encourage me anyway.

I assume it is the picture advertising Key Model World Live.

My apologies, but perhaps I should have shown the rest of the information.

 

So, there may well be something for everyone?

It might be the case that the 'big' layout of Pete Waterman's will draw a bigger footfall, especially amongst the younger generation which cannot be a bad thing. Hopefully the 'bright lights' will spark the initial enthusiasm which could develop into more meaningful / traditional railway modelling with maturity. If tech (including DCC and sound), keeps the hobby going then I'm all for it.

 

I went to see Heaton Lodge at Harrogate last year = fantastic. Also there was Grantham = equally fantastic, totally different, and certainly also a large layout. That was mixed with a model engineering exhibition. Flexibility and variety of formats seems to be a good idea.

[Barry Ten]

Dave, Roger and I have looked carefully at the logistics of setting up Dave's 7mm Sherton Abbas, not a huge layout but big and heavy and delicate enough to require a careful assembly sequence and ideally three pairs of hands. Our first few set-ups took about three hours, but with practise we were able to get it down to less than 90 minutes, usually by making sure someone was always doing something useful, not just standing around yakking. Simply having two torque wrenches made a big difference. We also colour-coded the legs and end-protectors to make sorting them out much easier.  Once we'd put it up a few times, Roger and I had enough familiarity with the steps that we could keep working while Dave moved the van away from the unloading area. We only ever did a few one-day shows, though. Saturdays are always the most enjoyable operating days because we don't have the tear-down and loading at the end of it. This normally takes about 60 - 90 minutes but depends on outside factors such as how near the organisers let us bring the van.

 

It was just getting smoothly efficient, when Dave decided to add another board 😂 ... but like a well-trained pit team we're slowly getting back to our previous speedy setup time. In another twist we now have integral legs on the boards, which will save valuable time bolting and unbolting things... but at the cost of making heavy boards even heavier. There is no ideal solution, just a willingness to keep plugging away while there are invitations. Coming to York in a few months!

[PMP]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In many jobs, around 75% of annual leave is rostered so the amount available for short breaks of any kind is limited and must be husbanded carefully.

 

On the railway, we could also accumulate compensatory leave days for working bank holidays, which helps but not all jobs involve BH working so it's not an option for many. 

 

John

As I said. It goes with the territory, exactly the same as having to work Christmas Day, family birthdays etc. If you want to attend a show and you do shift work you have to

live with the restrictions of your employment work contracts.

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

I assume it is the picture advertising Key Model World Live.

My apologies, but perhaps I should have shown the rest of the information.

 

So, there may well be something for everyone?

It might be the case that the 'big' layout of Pete Waterman's will draw a bigger footfall, especially amongst the younger generation which cannot be a bad thing. Hopefully the 'bright lights' will spark the initial enthusiasm which could develop into more meaningful / traditional railway modelling with maturity. If tech (including DCC and sound), keeps the hobby going then I'm all for it.

 

I went to see Heaton Lodge at Harrogate last year = fantastic. Also there was Grantham = equally fantastic, totally different, and certainly also a large layout. That was mixed with a model engineering exhibition. Flexibility and variety of formats seems to be a good idea.

 

This looks more like the late lamented Brighton Model World than purely a model railway exhibition, which is much to be welcomed. 

 

I came across a number of useful techniques, materials and tools from other modelling disciplines before that ceased.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, PMP said:

As I said. It goes with the territory, exactly the same as having to work Christmas Day, family birthdays etc. If you want to attend a show and you do shift work you have to

live with the restrictions of your employment work contracts.

And family commitments if you have one. I didn't so was able to do at least 90% of what I wanted, and often more if I could swap a turn at work.

 

However, within the group, I was unique in having so much flexibility before retirement. I even had to miss an occasional show to give others a look-in!

 

As well as exhibitions, there was a commitment to regular clubroom open days, so our problem wasn't so much ensuring any individual member's availability for a given weekend, as avoiding having too many unavailable simultaneously....

 

John

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[PMP]

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

And family commitments if you have one. I didn't so was able to do at least 90% of what I wanted, and often more if I could swap a turn at work.

 

However, within the group, I was unique in having so much flexibility before retirement. I even had to miss an occasional show to give others a look-in!

 

As well as exhibitions, there was a commitment to regular clubroom open days, so our problem wasn't so much ensuring any individual member's availability for a given weekend, as avoiding having too many unavailable simultaneously....

 

John

So what we’re saying here is, someone has to get themselves organised if they want to attend a show in whatever capacity or duration they’re attending in. 

[Andy Hayter]

39 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

I assume it is the picture advertising Key Model World Live.

My apologies, but perhaps I should have shown the rest of the information.

 

So, there may well be something for everyone?

It might be the case that the 'big' layout of Pete Waterman's will draw a bigger footfall, especially amongst the younger generation which cannot be a bad thing. Hopefully the 'bright lights' will spark the initial enthusiasm which could develop into more meaningful / traditional railway modelling with maturity. If tech (including DCC and sound), keeps the hobby going then I'm all for it.

 

I went to see Heaton Lodge at Harrogate last year = fantastic. Also there was Grantham = equally fantastic, totally different, and certainly also a large layout. That was mixed with a model engineering exhibition. Flexibility and variety of formats seems to be a good idea.

Not sure where 35 working model railways comes from.  Their own blurb shows just 12 but full marks to Key Publishing, each has a short description and picture.   So much better than a simple list, with if you are lucky, an indication of the scale.  WoR please note - again!

 

If you could give an indication of where the 35 comes from I would be grateful since it might just influence me on a GBP500 investment to attend.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, PMP said:

So what we’re saying here is, someone has to get themselves organised if they want to attend a show in whatever capacity or duration they’re attending in. 

 

No. somebody has to organise / cajole / persuade enough of the others to go, sometimes months in advance and sometimes at short notice if individuals go sick etc.

 

It's the parallel between going to work and running the business.....

 

We never put in a no-show so the alternative was to work short-handed.

 

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[PMP]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

No. somebody has to organise / cajole / persuade enough of the others to go, sometimes months in advance and sometimes at short notice if individuals go sick etc.

 

It's the parallel between going to work and running the business.....

 

We never put in a no-show so the alternative was to work short-handed.

 

 Good for you never putting in a no show, despite planning months in advance, my team hasn’t always been as lucky. 
 

https://albionyard.com/2011/09/30/manchester-cancellation/

 

https://albionyard.com/2019/09/18/cancellation-scalefourum-2019/

 

It’s obvious that shows need organising, need commitments from people and they should be financially viable. Just because they’ve been done in a particular way in the past, doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t change. 

 

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

Big commercial shows the future? I hope not, and feel I'm unlikely to go to many/any if that is the case. Not attractive to exhibitors either if  "big firm" (organiser and/or venue) involvement results in loads of forms to be read, completed and signed plus a 1001 rules and regulations to be followed.

 

The picture advertising the new show in April says almost everything I need to know to confirm my already-settled decision to stay at home.  RTR plastic models of modern "box on wheels" locos with over-bright twinkly lights and a train load of shipping containers on awful track. Just having the biggest ever OO layout because you want to show that you can afford it doesn't make it good. Time that would be taken to get 140miles there and 140 back, the venue itself, and the cost of travel / parking / admission, did nothing to encourage me anyway.

I've said before, successful model railway shows are (like many scenarios and organisations) likely to be the very big or the very small.

 

The biggest can attract a major sponsor, exploit a large, easily accessible venue with lots of professionally-run facilities and will attract attendees from a long distance because access is easy (which in theory applies to the NEC).  It will need that external funding to pay for the professional management and things like on-the-day stewarding necessary for such a venue.

 

The small club-run show in a school or church hall costs relatively little to host, most of the support will be provided by members, friends or school staff etc., because it doesn't require 50 people to organise and run it.  However it is unlikely to be able to host/house more than a dozen layouts.

 

Local to me, the now-lamented (by Tony as well as myself) Woking show probably struggled because it didn't fit into either category; it became too big to be organised by the shrinking numbers of REC members, but hired what was probably a quite expensive venue.  Other club-hosted exhibitions around here such as Aldershot, Basingstoke and Astolat fall into the latter category above and for now, seem not to be under threat.

 

One final thing, it is easy to see a reduction in provision of something as precipitating a decline (hence that silly Telegraph article).  Dropping back from an unprecedented peak to a more sustainable level of new RTR models and exhibitions may be no bad thing; I've long held the view that there are too many exhibitions (for much of the year there seemed to be 5-6 every weekend across the UK) with not enough really good layouts to go around them.

[John Besley]

Interestingly all the above has triggered an article in some of today's papers online foretelling the demise of Model Railways as we all get older and the youff of today aren't interested....

 

Are we a dying breed?   I am just picking back up after a 40 year gap

[JeremyC]

15 hours ago, Manxcat said:

I venture to suggest that, with the end of the Warley NEC show,  Model Rail Scotland will now be the largest show in the UK

I think that York is probably bigger than Model Rail Scotland. There was some discussion earlier about one day shows so it's possibly worth pointing out that both of these are three day shows.

Edited January 14 by JeremyC

[zr2498]

44 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Not sure where 35 working model railways comes from.  Their own blurb shows just 12 but full marks to Key Publishing, each has a short description and picture.   So much better than a simple list, with if you are lucky, an indication of the scale.  WoR please note - again!

 

If you could give an indication of where the 35 comes from I would be grateful since it might just influence me on a GBP500 investment to attend.

 

 

Another apology!

35 layouts was stated in the email from key Publishing yesterday, but as you say 12 are listed with info', and 15 in another statement. Certainly, if not 35 then the information is misleading.

[Dunsignalling]

37 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I've said before, successful model railway shows are (like many scenarios and organisations) likely to be the very big or the very small.

 

The biggest can attract a major sponsor, exploit a large, easily accessible venue with lots of professionally-run facilities and will attract attendees from a long distance because access is easy (which in theory applies to the NEC).  It will need that external funding to pay for the professional management and things like on-the-day stewarding necessary for such a venue.

 

The small club-run show in a school or church hall costs relatively little to host, most of the support will be provided by members, friends or school staff etc., because it doesn't require 50 people to organise and run it.  However it is unlikely to be able to host/house more than a dozen layouts.

 

Local to me, the now-lamented (by Tony as well as myself) Woking show probably struggled because it didn't fit into either category; it became too big to be organised by the shrinking numbers of REC members, but hired what was probably a quite expensive venue.  Other club-hosted exhibitions around here such as Aldershot, Basingstoke and Astolat fall into the latter category above and for now, seem not to be under threat.

 

One final thing, it is easy to see a reduction in provision of something as precipitating a decline (hence that silly Telegraph article).  Dropping back from an unprecedented peak to a more sustainable level of new RTR models and exhibitions may be no bad thing; I've long held the view that there are too many exhibitions (for much of the year there seemed to be 5-6 every weekend across the UK) with not enough really good layouts to go around them.

Those you mention have the advantage of populous surrounding areas within easy travelling distance.

 

So long as the organising clubs don't suffer the demographic challenges that did for the Woking event, that should ensure continuing viable attendances. 

 

The same should apply to Southampton, but their late-January timing perhaps makes them vulnerable to severe weather events.

 

However, we ignore or discount the gist of the Telegraph article at our peril.

 

We baby-boomers were probably more exposed to railways, real and model, in our youth than any generation before or since, and remain (for now) the dominant force in hobbies (not just ours) that grew with our demographic.

 

Even if  the same percentage of (smaller) succeeding generations can be recruited, it seems counterintuitive / unlikely that we will be replaced one-for-one as we become less active and ultimately depart.  

 

Doom and gloom, or arithmetical realism? 

 

John

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[JustinDean]

15 minutes ago, John Besley said:

Interestingly all the above has triggered an article in some of today's papers online foretelling the demise of Model Railways as we all get older and the youff of today aren't interested....

 

Are we a dying breed?   I am just picking back up after a 40 year gap

 

I don’t think we’re a dying breed. I remember in the late 80’s/early 90’s, the first time round I was modelling railways, the same conversations were happening. 
The cycle seems to be young folk get into the hobby, adulthood distractions take over, then at some point in later life we return, realising what a great hobby it is. I’m one of these people rejoining the fold a few years ago. 
Coming back was eye opening, Web forums, multiple publications, lots of exhibitions, manufacturers and a wealth of resources available. To me it seems better than ever!  Warley and Hattons going are just signifiers of change; absolutely not the signs of the end. 
 

Jay

[JustinDean]

For those hankering after the large show experience in the Midlands I can recommend the Stafford show to fill the void of Warley. 
 

Jay