Wright writes.....

[Barry Ten]

12 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

Heroic weathering indeed for Hycilla, certainly one that begs the question: did the prototype really look like that?, I have no doubt there is photographic evidence of the loco in such a state.

 

 

 

 

I have to confess that I find the weathering on Sun Castle to be a bit overcooked, especially around the tender rivets. Was it a particular thing with ER pacifics that they ended up like that?

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

I wonder how many locos there are out there; in part-built state, started decades ago, but shelved for whatever reasons?

 

 

 

I can offer a few. When Ken Hill and I first built a layout together in the early 1980s I commenced the construction of a number of locos. Then real life got in the way and we didn't do anything together for around many years and the locos got put aside. So I have a Ks Midland Single almost finished (having been lengthened by about 4mm so the smokebox and the bogie were in the correct positions relative to each other), a Craftsman Midland 0-4-4T probably around 60% done and the real beauty, a McGowan GCR Atlantic. I got so frustrated at having to replace or alter every single bit to make it look like the real thing, that it eventually got put away. I think the only part that was right without being altered was the chimney, which was surprisingly good.

 

The 0-4-4T has a Belpaire firebox and now I have gone back in time modelling period wise, I decided that the work required to backdate the body to a round top version wasn't worth tackling.

 

So those are all a round 35 to 40 years old.

 

There are probably another 4 or 5 part built but don't qualify as being decades old.

[Dylan Sanderson]

For those asking about the reference photos, here are the reference photos I sent Tom!

 

Both A2s are weathered superbly weathered, and I’m very happy with both!

[Kirby Uncoupler]

On 25/06/2021 at 19:36, CF MRC said:

Something a bit different: I do enjoy a bit of back scene painting. 

The south end of CF has had a major amount of work on it over the last year.

The eagle-eyed amongst you will notice the lack of Goods & Mineral Junction SB. The definitive building is currently being made. 

All this in readiness for our MRC Mini Exhibition, featuring the layout on 10-11th July.
https://www.themodelrailwayclub.org/shop/buy-tickets-to-our-events/copenhagen-fields-behind-the-scenes/

We are also producing a 20 page booklet on the layout that will be available then. 
 

Tim

 

Good Morning Tony and Everyone,

      I'm mightily impressed by Tim's  new backscene, very Turneresque, or is it the school of Bob Ross, has someone been staying up late watching "The Joy Of Painting"? Incidentally, Billy Turner was a local lad, born and raised a mile or two from this location, from memory he died around 1851, so he probably would have witnessed the very early days of the GN.

      However, i'm slightly concerned that the distant Camden Town and Holloway are engulfed in low cloud, at a height of 50 to 100ft above sea level, shouldn't there be a strip of pale grey above the rooftops, to give the illusion of distance and dirty air (or pale dirty yellow for rain?). Before anyone asks, i've painted a few in my time, although nowhere as good as this, once I even repainted someone's entire railway room walls and ceiling in "Sky Blue", although that one never gained any clouds, but then it was on the Great Western.

      I'm old enough to remember the tail end of the London smogs in the early 60s, getting lost going to primary school, and later being led home in a group, by the teachers. With all the factory chimneys, the power station off Caledonian Road, and loco sheds in this vicinity, there was always plenty of muck floating around, plus you'd get a "pea-souper" drifting in from the river, where all the muck was trapped under any cloud. It was no laughing matter, thousands died from breathing difficulties.

      Even the Ebonite Tower seen modelled, was another factory chimney, the square design held water tanks, used for pressure testing equipment, the central chimney stopped the water from freezing. Ebonite was a later takeover, making early plastic, similar to bakelite, but i'm stealing Tim's thunder here, i'm sure he can tell us more.

     Lastly, as kids we used to ride our bikes along Vale Royal (off York Way), to access the tunnel mouth tops, through a fence, bits of track were still up there in the mid-60s. The dog-leg in the road viaduct, was a favourite place for traffic cops to park, looking out for cars speeding northbound up York Way, hidden by the recess in the road.

 

                                                             Cheers, Brian.

[Tom F]

1 hour ago, mattingleycustom said:

Heroic weathering indeed for Hycilla, certainly one that begs the question: did the prototype really look like that?, I have no doubt there is photographic evidence of the loco in such a state. I like it, having weathered a fair few locos myself it's always a challenge/fun to produce something really filthy.

I admire much of Tom's work; I particularly like the weathering he applies to the pre-war Gresley pacifics, showing that not every loco was gleaming in those days.

 

Glenn

 

 

56 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I have to confess that I find the weathering on Sun Castle to be a bit overcooked, especially around the tender rivets. Was it a particular thing with ER pacifics that they ended up like that?

 

Thank you both for the recent feedback.

Dylan kindly provided me with reference photography for all of his recent weathering commissions. Through each process I have constantly sent photographs of the models to show how they are coming along. I always check with clients if they are happy with the results before classing the models as complete.

 

Everyday I am learning and I appreciate feedback, positive or critical. I think it is important for a balanced view especially when someone is paying you for your time.

 

Best regards

 

Tom

[t-b-g]

55 minutes ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

For those asking about the reference photos, here are the reference photos I sent Tom!

 

Both A2s are weathered superbly weathered, and I’m very happy with both!

 

That bottom photo illustrates very well something that I have spotted a few times on photos but I have so far had little success convincing anybody that I am not making it up.

 

Looking at the lining on the tender, it looks as if the centres of radius of the curves on the two orange lines are not in the same place, so the vertical lining is narrower than the horizontal ones. I have been told that it is an optical illusion caused by the angle of the photos but to my eyes, the curved lines are simple not parallel as they go from horizontal to vertical.

 

I was once told that somebody who worked in a railway paintshop had told the tale that this was done as the proportions of the long horizontal and shorter vertical lines needed their widths adjusting to make them look right. I don't suggest that all locos were like it as it would be down to the individual putting the lining on but I have seen enough examples to convince me that it is not my imagination.

 

In the photo, the horizontal line at the far end, near the loco, is wider than the vertical line at the end nearest the camera. So I don't think it is my eyes playing tricks.

 

Has anybody else ever thought about this or have any views on it?

[Tony Wright]

8 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That bottom photo illustrates very well something that I have spotted a few times on photos but I have so far had little success convincing anybody that I am not making it up.

 

Looking at the lining on the tender, it looks as if the centres of radius of the curves on the two orange lines are not in the same place, so the vertical lining is narrower than the horizontal ones. I have been told that it is an optical illusion caused by the angle of the photos but to my eyes, the curved lines are simple not parallel as they go from horizontal to vertical.

 

I was once told that somebody who worked in a railway paintshop had told the tale that this was done as the proportions of the long horizontal and shorter vertical lines needed their widths adjusting to make them look right. I don't suggest that all locos were like it as it would be down to the individual putting the lining on but I have seen enough examples to convince me that it is not my imagination.

 

In the photo, the horizontal line at the far end, near the loco, is wider than the vertical line at the end nearest the camera. So I don't think it is my eyes playing tricks.

 

Has anybody else ever thought about this or have any views on it?

I've never noticed this feature before, Tony,

 

But I think you're right. 

 

I wonder how many professional painters do it like this? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I've never noticed this feature before, Tony,

 

But I think you're right. 

 

I wonder how many professional painters do it like this? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

I won't name names but I did mention the possibility to one of our top painters a few years ago but he didn't "buy" the idea.

[bbishop]

2 hours ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

 

Good Morning Tony and Everyone,

      I'm mightily impressed by Tim's  new backscene, very Turneresque, or is it the school of Bob Ross, has someone been staying up late watching "The Joy Of Painting"? Incidentally, Billy Turner was a local lad, born and raised a mile or two from this location, from memory he died around 1851, so he probably would have witnessed the very early days of the GN.

 

 

                                                             Cheers, Brian.

 

From memory, Turner was born and brought up in Covent Garden, then towards the end of his life lived in Margate and beside the River Thames at Chelsea.  Bill

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I won't name names but I did mention the possibility to one of our top painters a few years ago but he didn't "buy" the idea.

'Buy' it or not,

 

Just a couple of A3 shots which definitely show the different widths of lining between vertical and horizontal. 

 

 

 

Perhaps the painter needs to look more closely.

 

Gosh; every day is a school day!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've never noticed this feature before, Tony,

 

But I think you're right. 

 

I wonder how many professional painters do it like this? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

What was actually done in the paintshop is anyone's guess, but the official BR specification makes no differentiation between vertical and horizontal lining. The line widths, distance from panel edges, and corner radii are all set out in detail.

 

Moreover, having seen numerous ex-works locos at close quarters during works visits and open days, I never noted any variation in painted lining widths. It always intrigued me that such immaculate lining was achieved freehand, and so I examined it closely - I am sure that I would have noticed such a feature.

 

Whatever; someone could check 'City of Birmingham' for this supposed differentiation.

 

John Isherwood.

[Tom F]

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the painter needs to look more closely.

 

Gosh; every day is a school day!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

The horizontal lower edge cabside lining looks thicker than the tender oddly.

What a cracking reference shot for weathering. Thank you for sharing.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

'Buy' it or not,

 

Just a couple of A3 shots which definitely show the different widths of lining between vertical and horizontal. 

 

 

 

Perhaps the painter needs to look more closely.

 

Gosh; every day is a school day!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

You can certainly see that the two curves of the inner and outer orange lines don't have the same centre to the radius.

 

The only thing I don't know for certain is if it was deliberate, as was told to me one time to preserve the proportions of the long and short lines, or if it was just a natural result of such lining being hand painted.

 

I think it is deliberate because I have seen lots of examples this way round, going back to GCR livery. I have never seen one with the vertical lines wider than the horizontal ones, which should also happen if it is just something to do with them being done by hand.

 

Perhaps on the original photos it might show up better but my impression is that the orange and black lines are the same thickness and it is the green between them that is thinner on the vertical lines.

 

Having pointed it out, none of my models are done like that and I can't see many taking the trouble to try it. 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

What was actually done in the paintshop is anyone's guess, but the official BR specification makes no differentiation between vertical and horizontal lining. The line widths, distance from panel edges, and corner radii are all set out in detail.

 

Moreover, having seen numerous ex-works locos at close quarters during works visits and open days, I never noted any variation in painted lining widths. It always intrigued me that such immaculate lining was achieved freehand, and so I examined it closely - I am sure that I would have noticed such a feature.

 

Whatever; someone could check 'City of Birmingham' for this supposed differentiation.

 

John Isherwood.

 

I am not sure that any evidence from one loco proves anything. Not all locos show the variation in thickness, indeed many do not or are at best inconclusive.

 

I just thought the photo shown earlier was one of the better examples I have seen, which is why I mentioned it.

[cctransuk]

12 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I am not sure that any evidence from one loco proves anything. Not all locos show the variation in thickness, indeed many do not or are at best inconclusive.

 

I would agree - what surprises me is that I have never before come across any suggestion of this lining feature. It is exactly the sort of 'quirk' that I would have expected to have entered railway folk history.

 

I'll be honest; I just can't 'see' it! When looking obliquely at, say, a tender side, the vertical lines are noticeably narrowed by the oblique angle of viewing. In contrast, the horizontal lines are not noticeably narrowed in their thickness.

 

Whatever; I can't see this feature becoming a issue as far as small scale models are concerned.

 

I just hope that this supposed detail does not become received wisdom unless some verifiable evidence is discovered.

 

John Isherwood.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

Whatever; I can't see this feature becoming a issue as far as small scale models are concerned.

 

I just hope that this supposed detail does not become received wisdom unless some verifiable evidence is discovered.

 

On the contrary, this thread has probably given the serial complainers about every new RTR loco, something new to find fault with and be appalled about!  Especially the complainers who never make the slightest modification to their models, in case it devalues them.

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I would agree - what surprises me is that I have never before come across any suggestion of this lining feature. It is exactly the sort of 'quirk' that I would have expected to have entered railway folk history.

 

I'll be honest; I just can't 'see' it! When looking obliquely at, say, a tender side, the vertical lines are noticeably narrowed by the oblique angle of viewing. In contrast, the horizontal lines are not noticeably narrowed in their thickness.

 

Whatever; I can't see this feature becoming a issue as far as small scale models are concerned.

 

I just hope that this supposed detail does not become received wisdom unless some verifiable evidence is discovered.

 

John Isherwood.

 

You are not alone in being sceptical. Several very eminent model railway folk have dismissed the idea and I wouldn't presume to know more than they do.

 

Which is why I put it on here as a theory rather than a fact! I just thought it was an interesting feature worth mentioning.

 

If you have Johnson's books on GCR locos, have a look at the Director on P5 of Vol. 2. If the two white lines on the tender share the same centre to the radius of the curve, maybe I need new glasses. There are plenty of other examples in there too but there are also many that look quite parallel and the same width vertically and horizontally.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

'Buy' it or not,

 

Just a couple of A3 shots which definitely show the different widths of lining between vertical and horizontal. 

 

 

 

Perhaps the painter needs to look more closely.

 

Gosh; every day is a school day!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Both of those photos are taken at an oblique angle so obviously the vertical lines are going to appear closer together than the horizontal lines - for the same reason that the wheels appear to be oval not round.

[Woodcock29]

5 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

You are not alone in being sceptical. Several very eminent model railway folk have dismissed the idea and I wouldn't presume to know more than they do.

 

Which is why I put it on here as a theory rather than a fact! I just thought it was an interesting feature worth mentioning.

 

If you have Johnson's books on GCR locos, have a look at the Director on P5 of Vol. 2. If the two white lines on the tender share the same centre to the radius of the curve, maybe I need new glasses. There are plenty of other examples in there too but there are also many that look quite parallel and the same width vertically and horizontally.

 

 

Tony G

If you look at the pictures of Valour on ps 47-48 at an oblique angle the effect appears to be the same on both tender and cab (p47, July 1920) but more side on they look equally spaced in the photo (p48) in full GC livery at Kings Cross in her early days on the GN. Valour was shopped in 1922 so whether she was repainted and lined differently at that time? Also shopped later in 1923 but Yeadon indicates only a touch up on the full GC livery.

 

Andrew

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Both of those photos are taken at an oblique angle so obviously the vertical lines are going to appear closer together than the horizontal lines - for the same reason that the wheels appear to be oval not round.

Thanks John,

 

So, just an optical effect then?

 

Very interesting. I wonder, does the same effect appear on models?

 

 

Bow-pen/fine brush lining by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

Bow-pen/fine brush lining by Geoff Haynes.

 

 

Transfer lining by me (transfer lining's thickness can vary, anyway).

 

A thought-provoking theory from Tony Gee indeed!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Tony Wright
typo error

[jrg1]

So interesting to see the comments on lining.  I always thought that BR got the liveries just right, and how much the lining mattered.  This was highlighted when some of the Princess Coronations were turned out in LMS red with BR orange lining-awful. 

[Woodcock29]

39 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks John,

 

So, just an optical effect then?

 

Very interesting. I wonder, does the same effect appear on models?

 

 

Bow-pen/fine brush lining by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

Bow-pen/fine brush lining by Geoff Haynes.

 

 

Transfer lining by me (transfer lining's thickness can vary, anyway).

 

A thought-provoking theory from Tony Gee indeed!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I can see the same effect in these models and it looks more accentuated at a more oblique angle.

Andrew

[Tony Wright]

Just to let folk know..................

 

This month I've sent over £500.00 to CRUK. This represents 10% of model sales on behalf of families, donations and contributions given by visitors to see LB. 

 

Totting up the 'books' last night, by the time more models are delivered this week, a further couple of hundred will be on its way to the charity.

 

This represents (at last) a return to sending funds to CRUK, after the paralysis of Covid.

 

May I please thank all those who've bought models, and donated? 

 

On Saturday, Robert Carroll delivered more boxes of various kits for me to sell. I'll be listing these in due course, but they comprise several Pro-Scale LNER types and DJH kits (including two for the last two 'Coronations'). And, more Highland 'Rivers'!

 

The boxes currently fill our hallway. Mo went purple!

[robertcwp]

58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

On Saturday, Robert Carroll delivered more boxes of various kits for me to sell. I'll be listing these in due course, but they comprise several Pro-Scale LNER types and DJH kits (including two for the last two 'Coronations'). And, more Highland 'Rivers'!

 

The boxes currently fill our hallway. Mo went purple!

Oh dear! I do apologise for any inconvenience caused!

[CF MRC]

21 hours ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

 

Good Morning Tony and Everyone,

      I'm mightily impressed by Tim's  new backscene, very Turneresque, or is it the school of Bob Ross, has someone been staying up late watching "The Joy Of Painting"? Incidentally, Billy Turner was a local lad, born and raised a mile or two from this location, from memory he died around 1851, so he probably would have witnessed the very early days of the GN.

      However, i'm slightly concerned that the distant Camden Town and Holloway are engulfed in low cloud, at a height of 50 to 100ft above sea level, shouldn't there be a strip of pale grey above the rooftops, to give the illusion of distance and dirty air (or pale dirty yellow for rain?). Before anyone asks, i've painted a few in my time, although nowhere as good as this, once I even repainted someone's entire railway room walls and ceiling in "Sky Blue", although that one never gained any clouds, but then it was on the Great Western.

      I'm old enough to remember the tail end of the London smogs in the early 60s, getting lost going to primary school, and later being led home in a group, by the teachers. With all the factory chimneys, the power station off Caledonian Road, and loco sheds in this vicinity, there was always plenty of muck floating around, plus you'd get a "pea-souper" drifting in from the river, where all the muck was trapped under any cloud. It was no laughing matter, thousands died from breathing difficulties.

      Even the Ebonite Tower seen modelled, was another factory chimney, the square design held water tanks, used for pressure testing equipment, the central chimney stopped the water from freezing. Ebonite was a later takeover, making early plastic, similar to bakelite, but i'm stealing Tim's thunder here, i'm sure he can tell us more.

     Lastly, as kids we used to ride our bikes along Vale Royal (off York Way), to access the tunnel mouth tops, through a fence, bits of track were still up there in the mid-60s. The dog-leg in the road viaduct, was a favourite place for traffic cops to park, looking out for cars speeding northbound up York Way, hidden by the recess in the road.

 

                                                             Cheers, Brian.

We do have ‘happy little clouds’ but not a pine tree in sight, but there are a few ‘little ol’ cabins’. 
 

The back scene is always being adapted, so is often ‘tweaked’ as I work in new ideas, but the view at the south end is very much looking west up the Thames valley.  It’s clearly a windy day so the air quality is good (for London…). Holloway is broadly where the viewer is positioned. 
 

Tim