Wright writes.....

[LNER4479]

I'd like to contribute to the great wagon debate if I may? The following series of pictures illustrate the approach we've taken in trying to depict some representative / typical such trains on the Shap exhibition layout.

 

For Shap 1967 (put together for Warley 2017), we put together some representative trains, largely using the stock we had, based on photos in the Ivo Peters 1965-1967 book. Studying the photos carefully started to reveal patterns in terms of the typical formation of the trains and the types of wagons. Most were too long for us to accurately represent so we actually put together the trains using clutches of wagons that we could identify such that the overall look of the train was representative.

 

Here's one of the banked trains that has survived into the more general 1953-1967 rolling timeframe that we now depict (your picture, Tony, taken at said Warley show). There are a few ‘specials’ in the formation but they are based on the photos, so two Prestwins toward the front and then a lone gunpowder wagon immediately behind the rake of coal wagons. Other than that, it’s vans and opens, including one tarpaulin’d one and a container in an open wagon – again based on what we observed in photos. Unless those mineral wagons are through piped, then this can only be a Class 'D' goods at best (first third fitted). (all trains now carry lamps, before Tony leaps in!)

 

Once we expanded our time frame, then we had much more to go at. This is based on an Eric Bruton 1952 photo and I invite ridicule posting this as this was our first attempt to put the train together and there’s one or two nonsense wagons in there at the moment. Nevertheless, in terms of overall appearance, it’s intended to give the impression of the train in the prototype picture. Of note is that the front half of the train is entirely ‘big four’ or even earlier wagons, including quite a few kit builds – the BR standard wagon build had hardly got going at this point [1952]. The eagle-eyed wagon spotters amongst us identified the ninth vehicle in the prototype train as being an ex-L&Y van with roof doors which has since been constructed (thanks Barry O). The back half of the train is more making up the numbers for now – let’s call it ‘work in progress’. But note - no 'specials' in this at all; it's all just vans and opens (unless we're counting the containers as 'specials'?)

 

A firm favourite of mine - the fully fitted van train. This is an intermittent 30 year labour of love as many of these vans are kit built (by me), starting with the earliest Parkside kits (remember, the ones with the horrible moulded wheelsets?), my introduction to wagon kit building. It’s actually inspired by a picture of such a train on the Settle & Carlisle route, beautifully side lit in the late afternoon sun. What is so striking is the rich variety of colours and shades to be seen, given that all should ostensibly be painted the same colour! Also the seemingly random, higgledy-piggledy arrangement of van styles and roof profiles and that is what I have gone for in this recreation. I reckon no more than 50% BR vans. Looking at pictures, this seems to me to be entirely representative of the period. It’s also probably one of the highest earning trains running as this would be a high speed, premium rate service. There may be one 'stunted' LMS van in there (for now) - sorry! [Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show]

 

 

 

 

Finally, our closest recreation of an actually train yet. There are several 1960s Derek Cross pictures of the ‘Maiden Lane’ service, another fast, premium rate train, conveying perishables and other time-sensitive traffic. It was often Duchess hauled (or at least, Mr Cross raised his camera whenever one appeared!) and was also not overly long (perhaps a reflection of the rapid loss of freight to road by this time?) making it eminently modellable. There’s a couple of ‘not quites’ but otherwise it’s pretty much wagon-for-wagon. Of note are the high proportion of containers wagons (7), the two shock vans marshalled at the front of the train, two wagons transporting road vehicles and the ‘Palvan’ (kit built specially for the train – thanks Paul). What gets commented on most however are the two milk wagons at the rear of the train (there’s actually three in the prototype picture). ‘That’s not right?!’ is the frequent cry – but it is. Milk tail traffic was a feature of the old Lancaster & Carlisle going back well into LMS days (several 1930s Treacy pictures show this). Whether it should have been or not is a different matter but the camera doesn’t lie (least it didn’t in those days!)

[Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show - one of my favourites of the layout so far. Pity the vac pipe has fallen off the front!]

 

 

In summary? If these trains ‘look right’ then that’s because they’re based on study of prototype pictures in terms of what was actually seen running on the route during the timeframe being modelled. I’m not overly concerned about every last wagon being to the exact diagram number seen in the photograph (if that can even be determined) – rather our approach was ‘third wagon in the train was a fitted, ventilated van. Right, who’s got one of those?’. It doesn’t matter (to me) whether it’s ex-LMS, ex-GWR or BR. Because, in a sense, you’re representing the situation in the goods depot where the consignment was loaded up. A fitted ventilated van was required so the nearest one to hand will do. One day it might be an ex-GWR one; the next day, it’s a BR standard one. Doesn’t matter – the consignment is still going to get to its destination in broadly the same conditions, at the same time and the customer is going to pay the same rate (assuming it doesn’t get damaged in transit).

 

If you're interested Tony (although you've already said you're not), I'll happily spend a few hours at LB, armed with your infinte selection of photos of ECML freight trains - and we'll remarshall accordingly, based on the stock you have, and see what we come up with. Sounds like a fun day to me?

 

Happy to hear any comments from the cognescenti.

 

I’ll be back in a bit with a few more general thoughts.

Edited December 27, 2021 by LNER4479

[Dunsignalling]

"Like" just wasn't adequate!

[Headstock]

24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I'd like to contribute to the great wagon debate if I may? The following series of pictures illustrate the approach we've taken in trying to depict some representative / typical such trains on the Shap exhibition layout.

 

For Shap 1967 (put together for Warley 2017), we put together some representative trains, largely using the stock we had, based on photos in the Ivo Peters 1965-1967 book. Studying the photos carefully started to reveal patterns in terms of the typical formation of the trains and the types of wagons. Most were too long for us to accurately represent so we actually put together the trains using clutches of wagons that we could identify such that the overall look of the train was representative.

 

Here's one of the banked trains that has survived into the more general 1953-1967 rolling timeframe that we now depict (your picture, Tony, taken at th said Warley show). There are a few ‘specials’ in the formation but they are based on the photos, so two Prestwins toward the front and then a lone gunpowder wagon immediately behind the rake of coal wagons. Other than that, it’s vans and opens, including one tarpaulin’d one and a container in an open wagon – again based on what we observed in photos. Unless those mineral wagons are through piped, then this can only be a Class 'D' goods at best (first third fitted). (all trains now carry lamps, before Tony leaps in!)

 

Once we expanded our time frame, then we had much more to go at. This is based on an Eric Bruton 1952 photo and I invite ridicule posting this as this was our first attempt to put the train together and there’s one or two nonsense wagons in there at the moment. Nevertheless, in terms of overall appearance, it’s intended to gives the impression of the train in the prototype picture. Of note is that the front half of the train is entirely ‘big four’ or even earlier wagons, including quite a few kit builds – the BR standard wagon build had hardly got going at that point. The eagle-eyed wagon spotters amongst us identified the ninth vehicle in the prototype train as being an ex-L&Y van with roof doors which has since been constructed (thanks Barry O). The back half of the train is more making up the numbers for now – let’s call it ‘work in progress’. But note - no 'specials' in this at all; it's all just vans and opens (unless we're counting the containers as 'specials'?)

 

A firm favourite of mine - the fully fitted van train. This is an intermittent 30 year labour of love as many of these vans are kit built (by me), starting with the earliest Parkside kits (remember, the ones with the horrible moulded wheelsets?), my introduction to wagon kit building. It’s actually inspired by a picture of such a train on the Settle & Carlisle route, beautifully side lit in the late afternoon sun. What is so striking is the rich variety of colours and shades to be seen, given that all should ostensibly be painted the same colour! Also the seemingly random, higgledy-piggledy arrangement of van styles and roof profiles and that is what I have gone for in this recreation. I reckon no more than 50% BR vans. Looking at pictures, this seems to me to be entirely representative of the period. It’s also probably one of the highest earning trains running as this would be a high speed, premium rate service. There may be one 'stunted' LMS van in there (for now) - sorry! [Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show]

 

Finally, our closest recreation of an actually train yet. There are several 1960s Derek Cross pictures of the ‘Maiden Lane’ service, another fast, premium rate train, conveying perishables and other time-sensitive traffic. It was often Duchess hauled (or at least, Mr Cross raised his camera whenever one appeared!) and was also not overly long (perhaps a reflection of the rapid loss of freight to road by this time?) making it eminently modellable. There’s a couple of ‘not quites’ but otherwise it’s pretty much wagon-for-wagon. Of note are the high proportion of containers wagons (7), the two shock vans marshalled at the front of the train, two wagons transporting road vehicles and the ‘Palvan’ (kit built specially for the train – thanks Paul). What gets commented on most however are the two milk wagons at the rear of the train (there’s actually three in the prototype picture). ‘That’s not right?!’ is the frequent cry – but it is. Milk tail traffic was a feature of the old Lancaster & Carlisle going back well into LMS days (several 1930s Treacy pictures show this). Whether it should have been or not is a different matter but the camera doesn’t lie (least it didn’t in those days!)

[Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show - one of my favourites of the layout so far. Pity the vac pipe has fallen off the front!]

 

 

In summary? If these trains ‘look right’ then that’s because they’re based on study of prototype pictures in terms of what was actually seen running on the route during the timeframe being modelled. I’m not overly concerned about every last wagon being to the exact diagram number seen in the photograph (if that can even be determined) – rather our approach was ‘third wagon in the train was a fitted, ventilated van. Right, who’s got one of those?’. It doesn’t matter (to me) whether it’s ex-LMS, ex-GWR or BR. Because, in a sense, you’re representing the situation in the goods depot where the consignment was loaded up. A fitted ventilated van was required so the nearest one to hand will do. One day it might be an ex-GWR one; the next day, it’s a BR standard one. Doesn’t matter – the consignment is still going to get to its destination in broadly the same conditions, at the same time and the customer is going to pay the same rate (assuming it doesn’t get damaged in transit).

 

If you're interested Tony (although you've already said you're not), I'll happily spend a few hours at LB, armed with your infinte selection of photos of ECML freight trains - and we'll remarshall accordingly, based on the stock you have, and see what we come up with. Sounds like a fun day to me?

 

Happy to hear any comments from the cognescenti.

 

I’ll be back in a bit with a few more general thoughts.

 

They look very familiar trains, very convincing. I'm sure I've seen them, even if I haven't. My only criticism is vans number two and four behind the Stanier mogul are the stunted LMS vans we were just discussing. I include my usual photo of LMS and LNER van roof profiles that shows how tall the LM vans were to the eves. Great shot though.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Headstock
correction

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Thanks, Andrew,

 

The worst of the rest on my Really Dire List,

 

Airfix/Dapol/Hornby: 10' wb 7-planks (stretched to fit standard underframe). Fortunately, a better alternative is available from Bachmann, even if they aren't above applying Victorian/Edwardian-era PO liveries to the 1923 design....

 

Mainline/Bachmann: LMS Cattle wagons (shrunk to fit standard underframe). In their defence, I think Bachmann has stopped making them....

 

Everybody from Hornby Dublo onwards: ALL GWR vans (widened to fit over standard underframes).

 

Nearly everybody: The dog's breakfast that is the RTR tank wagon. Oxford's recent 12-tonner isn't perfect but get's easily the closest to it so far. For me, it's an acceptable "layout wagon" as-is and can be improved further. Bachmann's Anchor mount creates a good initial impression but is a bit of a mongrel made half-way between two prototypical sizes. The best of the rest (by far) is the ancient ex-Airfix (now Hornby) 20-tonner, which says rather a lot about the rest....

 

John

 

Barely surprising that manufacturers look to use existing items such as underframes to keep tooling/manufacturing costs down. RTR model buyers have long been obsessed by price (the lower the better) and only recently has it become acceptable/fashionable to spend £200 plus on a loco.

43 minutes ago, pete55 said:

 

Yes he did say words to that effect, and the proof was often  seen with visitors locos struggling after a lap or two of the GN main line.

Even his own builds sometimes required a new gearbox. I remember his P2 Mons Meg which I believe needed two over a period of a few years.

One of the basic problems with friction fit driving wheels is that builders will insist on fitting and removing them a few times during the build, rather than fitting once and for all.

 

I for one aim to fit driving wheels only once but still consider it worth while pinning them to the axle in such a way that they can be removed if absolutely necessary. Ultrascale Wheels are generally considered to be the best "push fit" wheels in 4mm, partly because they are a light fit on the axle and so really need pinning (or Loctite).

[LNER4479]

45 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

They look very familiar trains, very convincing. I'm sure I've seen them, even if I haven't. My only criticism is vans number two and four behind the Stanier mogul are the stunted LMS vans we were just discussing. I include my usual photo of LMS and LNER van roof profiles that shows how tall the LM vans were to the eves. Great shot though.

 

If there's one thing this debate has registered in my brain, it's the LMS van situation. And I know you (and others) have referred to it previously but rest assured it's hit home on this occasion, so thanks for that. Someone's going to get a bulk order of the ex-Ratio PC572 kit in short order!

 

In the meantime, I did knock this up the other night whilst listening in to one of our entertaining 'spot the wagon' Skype calls. Well, it's a start ... 

[thanks to Jonathan for sending this kit my way, a collection of kits being re-distributed]

Edited December 27, 2021 by LNER4479
To add pic of LMS van kit

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

I'd like to contribute to the great wagon debate if I may? The following series of pictures illustrate the approach we've taken in trying to depict some representative / typical such trains on the Shap exhibition layout.

 

For Shap 1967 (put together for Warley 2017), we put together some representative trains, largely using the stock we had, based on photos in the Ivo Peters 1965-1967 book. Studying the photos carefully started to reveal patterns in terms of the typical formation of the trains and the types of wagons. Most were too long for us to accurately represent so we actually put together the trains using clutches of wagons that we could identify such that the overall look of the train was representative.

 

Here's one of the banked trains that has survived into the more general 1953-1967 rolling timeframe that we now depict (your picture, Tony, taken at said Warley show). There are a few ‘specials’ in the formation but they are based on the photos, so two Prestwins toward the front and then a lone gunpowder wagon immediately behind the rake of coal wagons. Other than that, it’s vans and opens, including one tarpaulin’d one and a container in an open wagon – again based on what we observed in photos. Unless those mineral wagons are through piped, then this can only be a Class 'D' goods at best (first third fitted). (all trains now carry lamps, before Tony leaps in!)

 

Once we expanded our time frame, then we had much more to go at. This is based on an Eric Bruton 1952 photo and I invite ridicule posting this as this was our first attempt to put the train together and there’s one or two nonsense wagons in there at the moment. Nevertheless, in terms of overall appearance, it’s intended to give the impression of the train in the prototype picture. Of note is that the front half of the train is entirely ‘big four’ or even earlier wagons, including quite a few kit builds – the BR standard wagon build had hardly got going at this point [1952]. The eagle-eyed wagon spotters amongst us identified the ninth vehicle in the prototype train as being an ex-L&Y van with roof doors which has since been constructed (thanks Barry O). The back half of the train is more making up the numbers for now – let’s call it ‘work in progress’. But note - no 'specials' in this at all; it's all just vans and opens (unless we're counting the containers as 'specials'?)

 

A firm favourite of mine - the fully fitted van train. This is an intermittent 30 year labour of love as many of these vans are kit built (by me), starting with the earliest Parkside kits (remember, the ones with the horrible moulded wheelsets?), my introduction to wagon kit building. It’s actually inspired by a picture of such a train on the Settle & Carlisle route, beautifully side lit in the late afternoon sun. What is so striking is the rich variety of colours and shades to be seen, given that all should ostensibly be painted the same colour! Also the seemingly random, higgledy-piggledy arrangement of van styles and roof profiles and that is what I have gone for in this recreation. I reckon no more than 50% BR vans. Looking at pictures, this seems to me to be entirely representative of the period. It’s also probably one of the highest earning trains running as this would be a high speed, premium rate service. There may be one 'stunted' LMS van in there (for now) - sorry! [Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show]

 

 

 

 

Finally, our closest recreation of an actually train yet. There are several 1960s Derek Cross pictures of the ‘Maiden Lane’ service, another fast, premium rate train, conveying perishables and other time-sensitive traffic. It was often Duchess hauled (or at least, Mr Cross raised his camera whenever one appeared!) and was also not overly long (perhaps a reflection of the rapid loss of freight to road by this time?) making it eminently modellable. There’s a couple of ‘not quites’ but otherwise it’s pretty much wagon-for-wagon. Of note are the high proportion of containers wagons (7), the two shock vans marshalled at the front of the train, two wagons transporting road vehicles and the ‘Palvan’ (kit built specially for the train – thanks Paul). What gets commented on most however are the two milk wagons at the rear of the train (there’s actually three in the prototype picture). ‘That’s not right?!’ is the frequent cry – but it is. Milk tail traffic was a feature of the old Lancaster & Carlisle going back well into LMS days (several 1930s Treacy pictures show this). Whether it should have been or not is a different matter but the camera doesn’t lie (least it didn’t in those days!)

[Andy York picture, taken at the Peterborough show - one of my favourites of the layout so far. Pity the vac pipe has fallen off the front!]

 

 

In summary? If these trains ‘look right’ then that’s because they’re based on study of prototype pictures in terms of what was actually seen running on the route during the timeframe being modelled. I’m not overly concerned about every last wagon being to the exact diagram number seen in the photograph (if that can even be determined) – rather our approach was ‘third wagon in the train was a fitted, ventilated van. Right, who’s got one of those?’. It doesn’t matter (to me) whether it’s ex-LMS, ex-GWR or BR. Because, in a sense, you’re representing the situation in the goods depot where the consignment was loaded up. A fitted ventilated van was required so the nearest one to hand will do. One day it might be an ex-GWR one; the next day, it’s a BR standard one. Doesn’t matter – the consignment is still going to get to its destination in broadly the same conditions, at the same time and the customer is going to pay the same rate (assuming it doesn’t get damaged in transit).

 

If you're interested Tony (although you've already said you're not), I'll happily spend a few hours at LB, armed with your infinte selection of photos of ECML freight trains - and we'll remarshall accordingly, based on the stock you have, and see what we come up with. Sounds like a fun day to me?

 

Happy to hear any comments from the cognescenti.

 

I’ll be back in a bit with a few more general thoughts.

Lovely shots, Graham,

 

Even mine. 

 

I am interested in your spending a day down here, sorting out the goods trains on LB.

 

And yes, I have at least two of those squashed ex-LMS vans.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, pete55 said:

 

Yes he did say words to that effect, and the proof was often  seen with visitors locos struggling after a lap or two of the GN main line.

Even his own builds sometimes required a new gearbox. I remember his P2 Mons Meg which I believe needed two over a period of a few years.

One of the basic problems with friction fit driving wheels is that builders will insist on fitting and removing them a few times during the build, rather than fitting once and for all.

Good afternoon Pete,

 

Retford is a 'loco killer' indeed! 

 

So far, so good, though; the four or more locos on loan of mine seem to be functioning properly, especially the B17 (CLUMBER) for the boat train. I must take a still photo of her on Retford one day.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Dunsignalling]

Careful, Tony, it's a slippery slope, and we may turn you into a "Wagonista" yet.

 

That said, you must almost have run out of A3s to build, so you'll need something else to keep you busy.

 

John

Edited December 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[LNER4479]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

That said, you must almost have run out of A3s to build, so you'll need something else to keep you busy.

 

John

Either that or a spot of horse trading - I wonder how many built up wagon kits equals a loco build? Those Duchesses aren't going to build themselves!

[Chuffer Davies]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

The one EM Gauge loco I sold for the widow was this Martin Finney A3 (builder/painter unknown). 

 

Sandra Orpen bought if for Retford. At first it ran very well, until part of the motion fell off (when I was there). I managed to repair it.

 

However, I'm now told that the friction-fit drivers have slipped on their axles and it'll need a new set of driving wheels (Markits, I'm sure). I'm sorry, Sandra.

 

Is this yet another example of a 'glass case' model; very pretty, but not much cop as a working loco, especially on huge layout like Retford?

 

 

 

 

Is there a structural issue with the wheels? I have once had the central boss of a Gibson wheel crack causing it to let go of the axle.  If the wheels are still sound then it may be sufficient to loctite the wheel/s back onto the axle and job done.  If a wheel is damaged then a replacement would be readily available from Gibsons. Replacing all the wheels with the significantly thicker Markit wheels may have all sorts of knock on problems with clearances behind the slide bars. The mistake with plastic centred wheels is to depend solely on friction to hold them on the axle. once they are attached with loctite they rarely give problems.

Just a thought…

Frank
 

[Tony Wright]

What did September bring?

 

There was a discussion in the Railway Modeller to which I contributed. It related to the Ian Beattie drawing of the A4, which showed a flat front to the cab roof. Someone defended its accuracy!

 

 

 

I took pictures of some of my A4s' cab roofs.

 

And showed a Dapol Black Label A4 in action on LB.

 

 

 

Good friend Geoff West bought four of the locos from the daughters' collection....... 

 

 

This 9F ran well without too much attention.

 

 

Unlike this W1 which needed new pick-ups all round.

 

 

He weathered this scratch-built K2 (Ray Lightfoot-built).

 

 

And this SEF C12.

 

Friend Tony Teague brought around a couple of kit-built locos (not built by him) which needed attention.

 

 

 

He went away happy with their running. 

 

And, it's not just British-outline which runs on LB......

 

 

 

 

I say 'ran', but this last one has a cab which is out of gauge, meaning it just ran between the overbridges.

 

Friend Tommy Mann from Scotland brought over.................

 

 

This Hornby A3 he'd modified.

 

October next. 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Headstock]

24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Either that or a spot of horse trading - I wonder how many built up wagon kits equals a loco build? Those Duchesses aren't going to build themselves!

 

If you build Tony a Quint D, it should be worth a Duchess or six.

 

After LMS vans, I'm considering a sheeted general merchandise wagon campaign.

[sandra]

27 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Is there a structural issue with the wheels? I have once had the central boss of a Gibson wheel crack causing it to let go of the axle.  If the wheels are still sound then it may be sufficient to loctite the wheel/s back onto the axle and job done.  If a wheel is damaged then a replacement would be readily available from Gibsons. Replacing all the wheels with the significantly thicker Markit wheels may have all sorts of knock on problems with clearances behind the slide bars. The mistake with plastic centred wheels is to depend solely on friction to hold them on the axle. once they are attached with loctite they rarely give problems.

Just a thought…

Frank
 

Frank,

Thanks for your comments. The wheels seem to be OK in that they don’t seem to have any cracks but I haven’t done anything to repair the loco yet. I will try and loctite the wheels in place but I’m not convinced that friction fit wheels will work on Retford. The problem is that the express locomotives run high mileages with heavy trains, including gradients in both directions.

 

I do get the impression that whilst this loco has a motor it was built purely for static display and I think it needs a complete mechanical rebuild to make it fit enough to haul trains on Retford but I will take your advice and try Loctite before I completely rebuild it.

Sandra

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

I include my usual photo of LMS and LNER van roof profiles that shows how tall the LM vans were to the eves.

 

 

In the spirit of the moment, even though it's slightly naughty*, I offer the following for your delectation:

 

This is a crop of a photo taken at Wigan (Springs Branch), showing a rake of vans almost certainly fresh off Wigan Wagon Works, presumably making their way to a nearby yard for dispersal back into traffic. It is of course striking because, being in colour, it shows the wagons in almost unbelievably clean condition - a couple of days back in use and they'd soon have the spots knocked off them. Notwithstanding a possible colour cast issue, the shade of BR bauxite is perhaps equally striking.

 

Anyhow, sorry it's not any clearer but you can have a fun game of 'spot the wagon type'. Even by this date (c.1959), it's hardly a uniform rake of BR standard types, is it? Based on the 'high roof profile' characteristic, then I'm pretty certain that the second one at least is an ex-LMS van, probably No.4 as well.

(*the original image (a colour transparency) is copyright N Harrop / Manchester Locomotive Society. This is from my low-res reference version for use when compiling my recent book. Posted in the spirit of furthering debate; please otherwise respect copyright)

 

[Dunsignalling]

Bear in mind, too, that not all LMS vans had the very high sides/shallow curved roof; later diagrams had something a little more "average".

 

#2 and #4 qualify on height, but #1 also looks like ex-LMS or early BR based on one of their diagrams. The twin horizontal crossmembers on the doors being one of that company's trademark features on later vans.

 

#3 is GWR or GWR-pattern early BR, the twin bonnet vents being the giveaway.

 

#5 is ex-LNER, #6 BR, #7 indeterminate (probably LNER), and #8 another tall LMS one. After that it all gets a bit fuzzy.... 

 

John

Edited December 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Headstock]

48 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

 

In the spirit of the moment, even though it's slightly naughty*, I offer the following for your delectation:

 

This is a crop of a photo taken at Wigan (Springs Branch), showing a rake of vans almost certainly fresh off Wigan Wagon Works, presumably making their way to a nearby yard for dispersal back into traffic. It is of course striking because, being in colour, it shows the wagons in almost unbelievably clean condition - a couple of days back in use and they'd soon have the spots knocked off them. Notwithstanding a possible colour cast issue, the shade of BR bauxite is perhaps equally striking.

 

Anyhow, sorry it's not any clearer but you can have a fun game of 'spot the wagon type'. Even by this date (c.1959), it's hardly a uniform rake of BR standard types, is it? Based on the 'high roof profile' characteristic, then I'm pretty certain that the second one at least is an ex-LMS van, probably No.4 as well.

(*the original image (a colour transparency) is copyright N Harrop / Manchester Locomotive Society. This is from my low-res reference version for use when compiling my recent book. Posted in the spirit of furthering debate; please otherwise respect copyright)

 

 

What a gorgeous picture, there is a red colour cast but removing it doesn't significantly alter the vans, just slightly reduces the vibrancy.

 

I will go with LMS ply, LMS, GWR, LMS, LNER, LNER ply, LMS, LMS, LMS, LNER ply?, LMS, LMS, LNER?. Then I start to get lost under the bridge. I can't see anything BR or SR.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

What a gorgeous picture, there is a red colour cast but removing it doesn't significantly alter the vans, just slightly reduces the vibrancy.

 

I will go with LMS ply, LMS, GWR, LMS, LNER, LNER ply, LMS, LMS, LMS, LNER ply?, LMS, LMS, LNER?. Then I start to get lost under the bridge. I can't see anything BR or SR.

On reinspection I agree that #6 is probably LNER, not sure how I missed the sliding doors.

[Headstock]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

On reinspection I agree that #6 is probably LNER, not sure how I missed the sliding doors.

 

It's the double shadow that may throw you off. Most sliding door vans have a singe shadow to the right, the ply vans have one both sides of the door. GWR and BR cupboard door vans tend to have the same double shadow but they also have the 'mini me' sides and hunched back roofs compared to the LMS and LNER vans.

[APOLLO]

All Dads photos - Golborne Southbound late 50's, a few miles south of Springs Branch

 

 

Springs Branch Taylors Lane Bridge. This one Northbound.

 

 

Another interesting northbound.

 

 

Southbound mucky un named  Brit

 

 

Nice clean 9F Southbound Same location as LNER4479's photo

 

 

And of course the obligatory "Brit" Storming northbound up Boars Head bank, Rylands Sidings, a mile north of Wigan NW, 1966 or so.

Don't forget your little fitted open wagon folks !!!

 

 

I've probably posted some of these before, but as van trains are under discussion, a photo or two is worth a thousand words.

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

 

In the spirit of the moment, even though it's slightly naughty*, I offer the following for your delectation:

 

This is a crop of a photo taken at Wigan (Springs Branch), showing a rake of vans almost certainly fresh off Wigan Wagon Works, presumably making their way to a nearby yard for dispersal back into traffic.

 

Interesting photo, thanks for posting. I spent many hours here in my youth mid 60's on, I knew personally every sleeper !!!!!

 

I'm not too sure if they are straight off Wigan Wagon Works, the train is southbound on the up fast (bridge in background proves this). Wigan Wagon Works is  a mile up the New Springs branch line, to the right of the houses in the photo extreme right. This branch joined the main line (goods independent lines behind the train, under the other bridge in the photo) about a quarter mile south of where the train is alongside Springs Branch Loco shed..

 

It's probably not from Earlestown wagon works either, wrong direction, so a bit of a mystery, A wagon works in Scotland perhaps ?

 

Brit15

[PMP]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

October next. 

 

I think I’m seeing a pattern develop.

[Denbridge]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

What about August?

 

 

The one EM Gauge loco I sold for the widow was this Martin Finney A3 (builder/painter unknown). 

 

Sandra Orpen bought if for Retford. At first it ran very well, until part of the motion fell off (when I was there). I managed to repair it.

 

However, I'm now told that the friction-fit drivers have slipped on their axles and it'll need a new set of driving wheels (Markits, I'm sure). I'm sorry, Sandra.

 

Is this yet another example of a 'glass case' model; very pretty, but not much cop as a working loco, especially on huge layout like Retford? 

 

None of the locos from the collection worked properly at source. I managed to get most working, or sold off cheaply those which didn't, the new owners being quite capable of getting them to run. 

 

I've said this so many times, but why are so many 'professionally-built' locomotives such poor runners? They look fine inside a cabinet, but ask them to run and it's a catalogue of horrors - tight spots, dud pick-ups, jerky running, frequent derailments, an inability to negotiate even generous curves or, worse still, an inability to run at all. Yet, folks have handed over good money for such things. Don't they know? Don't they care? Don't they have layouts? 

 

Another collection came my way to sell in August, this time on behalf of two surviving daughters, their late father having been a widower for some time..........

 

Most locos didn't run very well to begin with, but, in the end, I managed to get them to perform, and sold everything; including three to myself......

 

 

Built from a DJH kit (builder unknown), it ran like a lame dog. After curing a tight spot (rods off and properly broached) and fitting new pick-ups, it now runs really well. It then featured on the programme I made for BRM's last virtual exhibition (of which, more later). 

 

Its rake of mineral empties now contains fewer ex-PO wagons.

 

A slightly wonky handrail on the offside smoke deflector is typical of 9Fs. 

 

As I delivered the A3 to Retford, I also collected a Crownline J17 I'd built, which Tom Foster had weathered...........................

 

 

I'd painted it.

 

 

But brilliant weathering like this brings a loco to life. Thanks Tom. 

 

 

It's passing another loco I bought from the second collection, a Millholme Ivatt 4MT.

 

 

A bit of a tweak to get it going, but now a fine runner. She's got the road after the J17 heads off towards Bourne, and now heads towards Castle Bytham, taking the single line token with her.

 

Another loco I bought was this A1............

 

 

Again, a bit of a flop running-wise, but not now; another loco which featured in my programme. 

 

Bob Wood brought along some interesting stuff......

 

 

A Millholme 'Dreadnought'.

 

 

And a scratch-built L&Y 0-8-2T. 

 

Finally, Graham Moorfoot brought along the smallest 'loco' ever to run on LB...........

 

 

A Bachmann Wickham trolley.

 

It's seen alongside far more typical LB motive power.

 

September later. 

 

 

 

 

And on the penultimate day of August my castle built from a  Mitchell kit let the side down by lifting its wheels on your pullmans. Hopefully rectified. It 'should' pull a house down, it weighs a ton!

[great central]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

All Dads photos - Golborne Southbound late 50's, a few miles south of Springs Branch

 

 

Springs Branch Taylors Lane Bridge. This one Northbound.

 

 

Another interesting northbound.

 

 

Southbound mucky un named  Brit

 

 

Nice clean 9F Southbound Same location as LNER4479's photo

 

 

And of course the obligatory "Brit" Storming northbound up Boars Head bank, Rylands Sidings, a mile north of Wigan NW, 1966 or so.

Don't forget your little fitted open wagon folks !!!

 

 

I've probably posted some of these before, but as van trains are under discussion, a photo or two is worth a thousand words.

 

Brit15

 

The angle and lighting on the last pic of 70052, latterly Firth of Tay, really makes it look like it's shouldering the load. Superb.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

It's the double shadow that may throw you off. Most sliding door vans have a singe shadow to the right, the ply vans have one both sides of the door. GWR and BR cupboard door vans tend to have the same double shadow but they also have the 'mini me' sides and hunched back roofs compared to the LMS and LNER vans.

How come the double shadow on ply vans when the planked versions only throw one? Does the roof have greater overhang? 

 

I've always thought the RH shadow was thrown by the upper door runner.

 

John

Edited December 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[robertcwp]

7 hours ago, pete55 said:

 

Yes he did say words to that effect, and the proof was often  seen with visitors locos struggling after a lap or two of the GN main line.

Even his own builds sometimes required a new gearbox. I remember his P2 Mons Meg which I believe needed two over a period of a few years.

One of the basic problems with friction fit driving wheels is that builders will insist on fitting and removing them a few times during the build, rather than fitting once and for all.

This Bachmann 9F which Sandra regauged went very well on its first test run with a train:

 

https://youtu.be/Cc3KlI7AWHc

 

Although there are only nine carriages, seven of them are heavy metal kits and the 9F started the train with no slip and romped up the off-scene gradient. By contrast, the V2 that had been on the set - built by Roy I believe - slipped a little bit on starting and if I recall correctly one or two other engines struggled more than that with the set.

 

The 9F currently has a 1C tender but there are plans to change it to a 1F.