7mm Iron Ore wagons

[Warspite]

I’m currently thinking about a future project possibly based on the East Midlands iron ore quarries. I have long been interested in these railways (as I am with a lot of industrial prototypes!) but the recent release of the delightful Ixion Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST and DJH’s announcement about a BR class 14 diesel hydraulic (three of which were purchased from BR by Stewarts & Lloyds Minerals) for 2013 makes an iron ore project quite appealing.

 

However, one potential barrier is the lack of freight stock, particularly iron ore hoppers. I suspect the excellent Parkside Dundas 21 ton hopper would not be suitable as I guess it was primarily a coal hopper. I’m not aware of anybody producing a 24 ton or 25.5 ton iron ore hopper in 7mm.

 

Peco of course produce a model of an unfitted iron ore tippler but I don’t know how accurate this is. I built one of these many years ago and I believe it is based on the early 27 ton tipplers with a 9 foot wheelbase. Certainly mine has a 63mm wheelbase which converts of course to 9 feet! The length of the bodywork is 122mm (over corner caps) which equates to 17’ 5” and the height 62mm (8’ 9”) which is correct for diagram 1/180. David Larkin has a good picture of B380528 in ‘Working Wagons Vol. 1) which looks correct for the Peco wagon, certainly in the important areas of underframe, brakegear and buffers, except it has replacement roller bearings whereas the Peco wagon has oil axle boxes. Photos I have seen of the 1960s/1970s iron ore workings seem to show a mix of oil and roller bearing axle boxes.

 

Final question. I’m sure I’ve seen photos of 16 ton mineral wagons in iron ore service mixed with the 27 ton tipplers. Does anybody know if this was common practice as it would certainly help with my supply of suitable stock!

 

Any advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

Stephen

[alant]

Stephen,

 

Mercian Models list a 27 ton tippler:

 

www.modelrailways.tv/7mm-wagons--coaches.html

 

Not sure if this is of any use. I seem to recall another manufacturer also but cannot think who at the moment.

 

Alan.

[Fat Controller]

There were some LNER-built 21t hoppers for iron-ore traffic; these were the ones built on underframes intended for BEF use in France during WW2. I have seen photos of others being so used, in photos of Immingham Docks, along with both 16t steel-bodied and 13t wooden-bodied minerals. The shots were taken from a crane, and show how little space 13t of iron-ore takes up- it almost looks as though someone hadn't cleaned the wagon properly..

[hmrspaul]

I haven't measured the Peco Iron ore tippler for accuracy, but it looks as if it is correct, doesn't it share the underframe from the 16ton mineral and Pig Iron. The Peco range were designed by Webster of Ratio models fame and make nice models. Most IIT were introduced with oil boxes, but all wagons over 22ton were supposed to be upgraded to roller bearings. This was only partially successful. Lots of pictures at http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit There were also BSCO owned tipplers see http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bscotippler/e293f6429 There is a nice picture of a class 14 hauling a couple of these in the website I referred to on the Mineral wagon topic earlier http://www.drehschei....php?17,5721518

 

Some of the 13ton hoppers diag 144 were labelled for iron ore. This has always seemed strange to me but there is a 7mm model, You may get info via www.modelsexpress.biz

 

There was a batch of LMS mineral wagons which were for Iron ore, but superficially looked like the ordinary mineral wagon.

 

There are many etched brass kits in 7mm, including hoppers etc. and it is possible some useful items are available.

 

Paul Bartlett

[David Siddall]

Just Googled '24 ton iron ore hopper' and looking at PB's photos that doesn't look like a hideously difficult scratchbuild for someone who can lob together such convincing buildings in plasticard? I'm basing this assumption on his pic' of a 22 ton iron ore hopper which suggests to me the use of an existing kit chassis (albeit modified a bit) married to a scratch body. Rivets could applied using transfers such as those from Micromark?

 

What Paul shows here as a 27 ton Iron ore tippler looks very similar to the Peco kit though I appreciate it isn't a hopper...

 

D

 

PS: If you're going all mineralised are you going to flog your milk tanker ;-)

[Warspite]

Stephen,

 

Mercian Models list a 27 ton tippler:

 

www.modelrailways.tv/7mm-wagons--coaches.html

 

Not sure if this is of any use. I seem to recall another manufacturer also but cannot think who at the moment.

 

Alan.

There were some LNER-built 21t hoppers for iron-ore traffic; these were the ones built on underframes intended for BEF use in France during WW2. I have seen photos of others being so used, in photos of Immingham Docks, along with both 16t steel-bodied and 13t wooden-bodied minerals. The shots were taken from a crane, and show how little space 13t of iron-ore takes up- it almost looks as though someone hadn't cleaned the wagon properly..

 

Thanks both for the advice. I'll follow up these leads.

 

Alan - I need to see if the Mercian tippler is similar to the Peco one although it may be to a different diagram which would be good.

 

Stephen

[gismorail]

Ivo Peters Did a very good video on the workings of industrial railways on the east midlands which covered the iron ore workings. A good source of information if you can find a copy

[Warspite]

I haven't measured the Peco Iron ore tippler for accuracy, but it looks as if it is correct, doesn't it share the underframe from the 16ton mineral and Pig Iron. The Peco range were designed by Webster of Ratio models fame and make nice models. Most IIT were introduced with oil boxes, but all wagons over 22ton were supposed to be upgraded to roller bearings. This was only partially successful. Lots of pictures at http://PaulBartlett....oretipplerunfit There were also BSCO owned tipplers see http://PaulBartlett....ppler/e293f6429 There is a nice picture of a class 14 hauling a couple of these in the website I referred to on the Mineral wagon topic earlier http://www.drehschei....php?17,5721518

 

Some of the 13ton hoppers diag 144 were labelled for iron ore. This has always seemed strange to me but there is a 7mm model, You may get info via www.modelsexpress.biz

 

There was a batch of LMS mineral wagons which were for Iron ore, but superficially looked like the ordinary mineral wagon.

 

There are many etched brass kits in 7mm, including hoppers etc. and it is possible some useful items are available.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Paul

 

Thanks for this. Some very helpful information from you as usual.

 

The Peco tippler does share the underframe with the 16 ton mineral, it even has the drop doors in the floor which I assume would not be there on a tippler. However, it certainly seems to match diagram 1/180. I assume I could also vary the Peco kit by reducing the sides by a scale 4" (2.33mm in 7mm scale) to produce diagram 1/183 which seems to have the same wheelbase, brakegear and buffers.

 

The diagram 144 13 ton hoppers look very appealing although I'm still to track down a 7mm model even with your link. On the LMS wagons, I've seen some photos of what look like 7/8 plank wooden body wagons but I'm not sure how long these survived in BR days.

 

Stephen

[Barnaby]

Speaking of things Ivor Peters this is well worth a watch....... uniquely British quaint and rich in detail. >>>

[Warspite]

Just Googled '24 ton iron ore hopper' and looking at PB's photos that doesn't look like a hideously difficult scratchbuild for someone who can lob together such convincing buildings in plasticard? I'm basing this assumption on his pic' of a 22 ton iron ore hopper which suggests to me the use of an existing kit chassis (albeit modified a bit) married to a scratch body. Rivets could applied using transfers such as those from Micromark?

 

What Paul shows here as a 27 ton Iron ore tippler looks very similar to the Peco kit though I appreciate it isn't a hopper...

 

D

 

PS: If you're going all mineralised are you going to flog your milk tanker ;-)

 

David

 

That's very kind of you but I'm not sure my skill (currently untried) in scratchbuilding wagons can match your confidence in my ability! However, I might see if I can find some plans for these or the smaller 13 ton hoppers. Both would make great models with lots of intense weathering to cover up my mistakes!

 

I still haven't even started the milk tanker but the current layout (with its dairy) will remain. The mineral railway is a 'long-term' project for an exhibition layout with (possibly) hand-built track, although I've yet to discover whether I have any of your skills in that area either.

 

Stephen

[Warspite]

Ivo Peters Did a very good video on the workings of industrial railways on the east midlands which covered the iron ore workings. A good source of information if you can find a copy

 

I did find some wonderful footage of his on the web with both standard gauge and narrow gauge iron ore workings. I will see if I can get a copy on DVD. Thanks.

 

Stephen

[David Siddall]

The mineral railway is a 'long-term' project for an exhibition layout with (possibly) hand-built track, although I've yet to discover whether I have any of your skills in that area either.

 

Skills are, I think, a slightly over-generous description of what I'm currently able to deploy! Blind faith and a degree of bloody-minded determination is probably a little closer to the mark ;-)

 

D

[RANGERS]

Not sure of your period but my memories of the East Midlands ironstone trains in the seventies was that the 27t tipplers were the most common together with the few private owner tipplers which S&L, and subsequently BSC Minerals used. After 1974 when Harlaxton, Exton and High Dyke closed, the remaining pits with mainline traffic were Glendon and Twywell, both using the standard tipplers. Glendon had a class 14 which had started life at Harlaxton, I can't remember how many there were but it was significantly more than the 3 mentioned previously, closer to 20 I suspect would be nearer the mark.

 

The standard 27t tipplers were anything but standard, two wheelbases and two body heights combined with fitted and unfitted versions yielded several variants.

 

Imported ore did use hoppers, Birkenhead and Ridham Dock were two flows into Corby I seem to remember, but they were infrequent. These ran straight to Lloyds Sidings and the class 14s tripped them to the ore handling plant.

 

Eric Tonks' books on Ironstone Quarries of the East Midlands are an invaluable resource for anyone with an interest in the industry.

[Warspite]

Not sure of your period but my memories of the East Midlands ironstone trains in the seventies was that the 27t tipplers were the most common together with the few private owner tipplers which S&L, and subsequently BSC Minerals used. After 1974 when Harlaxton, Exton and High Dyke closed, the remaining pits with mainline traffic were Glendon and Twywell, both using the standard tipplers. Glendon had a class 14 which had started life at Harlaxton, I can't remember how many there were but it was significantly more than the 3 mentioned previously, closer to 20 I suspect would be nearer the mark.

 

The standard 27t tipplers were anything but standard, two wheelbases and two body heights combined with fitted and unfitted versions yielded several variants.

 

Imported ore did use hoppers, Birkenhead and Ridham Dock were two flows into Corby I seem to remember, but they were infrequent. These ran straight to Lloyds Sidings and the class 14s tripped them to the ore handling plant.

 

Eric Tonks' books on Ironstone Quarries of the East Midlands are an invaluable resource for anyone with an interest in the industry.

 

Rangers

 

Thanks for the information. It's great to get some 'local' knowledge. I have always been interested in ironstone workings but a very good article on the quarry railways of Byfield and Charwelton by Rex Partridge (Steam Days June 2012) gave me the stimulus to think about a future layout. Of course, the inclusion of a photo of a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST was even more encouragement!

 

I suspected that the hoppers would only be used on the sort of flows you mentioned and most of the photos I've seen of them seem to have been taken at Corby rather than the East Midlands quarries. Interestingly though, in the Steam Days article, there is a 1956 photo of a small hopper wagon attached to the front of a quarry train in the exchange sidings near Charwelton station which the author (or caption writer?) suggested could either be a makeshift 'tender' or "a coal wagon already collected from the goods yard for a trip back to the shed". However, a correspondent in the November 2012 issue suggests that the hopper "is probably for loading with ironstone, wagons of this type did find their way to Charwelton".

 

I think the tipplers with the lower body height (diagram 1/183) should be possible by cutting down the Peco kit (see post #8 above) but the 10' wheelbase wagons (diagrams 1/184 and 1/185) would be more difficult, although the body would be relatively easy to scratchbuild.

 

Thanks again.

 

Stephen

[Osgood]

I’m currently thinking about a future project possibly based on the East Midlands iron ore quarries. ...........Final question. I’m sure I’ve seen photos of 16 ton mineral wagons in iron ore service mixed with the 27 ton tipplers. Does anybody know if this was common practice as it would certainly help with my supply of suitable stock!

 

Any advice on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

Stephen

Hi Stephen.

 

With a similar embryonic project to your own, I'm currently around 1/2 way through my various industrial rail and ironstone books looking to answer the same question, and so far have only found one photo showing a rake of eight or so standard mineral wagons (mixed top door and non-top door types) being loaded at Pitsford quarry in 1960.

 

There are numerous shots of rakes of hoppers or 27T tipplers containing one or two 16T mineral wagons (these always next to the engine), but these could well be coal wagons for the quarry engines.

 

The evidence so far suggests that tipplers and hoppers were generally kept in separate rakes - not much evidence of socialising between the two types!  I found somewhere a reference to hoppers being used in the main for imported ore traffic from docks to steelworks, but there is widespread evidence of quarry use.

 

Hope this is of interest.

Tony  

p.s. The set of books by Eric Tonks is on offer at the moment (£65 for all nine volumes) at www.booklaw.co.uk  - if you do not have these I'd highly recommend you do so!

[Osgood]

It suddenly dawns on me that the reason for segregation in trains is pretty obvious - it depended on the unloading facilities (under-rail hopper or tippler) at the destination.

[Mark Saunders]

When looking at photographs of trains of Iron Ore Tipplers it is easy to mistake LMS ones for 16tonners as the only difference is the linkage on the handbrake lever which is the same as the 27t tipplers.

 

The load being smaller could be a clue that it is a 16tonner or a Vacuume Braked one/s being used as a fitted head?

 

Mark Saunders

[hmrspaul]

There has been much discussion of Iron ore wagons in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65930-00-scale-model-of-a-br-hkv-hopper/

 

Earlier I gave a web address for Model Express as they make a reasonable fist of a 13ton hopper http://bit.ly/VpJYh2. That WWW was taken from the box and doesn't seem to work.

 

The gauge O guild traders page gives a phone number of 01934 744195. On there, the postal address is Bluebell Nook, Barrows Park, Cheddar, Somerset BS27 3AZ. The phone number is the same as on the box, but the postal address has altered from a Draycott address on the box.

 

Paul Bartlett

[rope runner]

It could be worth a visit to "rocks by rail" at cottesmore (formely the Rutland Railway Museum)

 

They have various Ironstone hoppers and tipplers of different diagrams, pictures of which can be accessed through their website.

 

I have a fair few bits of East Midlands Ironstone stuff, and as already mentioned, the Peco tippler is a good place to start as any.

 

One interesting variant which could be modeled is a "private owner" 27 ton tippler, such as those owned by Lancashire steel.

(The colour scheme is black with white lettering)

 

16 ton ex-coal wagons were mixed in from the late 50's onwards.

 

Tipplers and hoppers were always separate when on the mainline, the exception being that some hoppers such as those owned by Appleby Frodingham,

which had their doors welded shut and were used as "tipplers".

 

Hope this helps.

 

Paul A.

[RANGERS]

A chance conversation with my father in law this morning shed some light on the tippler v hopper operation which I'd never thought about.

 

It seems the deciding factor was down to the way the ore was handled and processed at the quarry end. Most quarries in the Northants/ Rutland/ Leics fields shipped ore in it's raw or uncrushed state, that dictated the use of tipplers on account of the ore being in much larger chunks which hoppers couldn't handle. Quarries which had crushing plants, or which "calcined" the ore, could use either type of wagon.

 

Calcining involved layering the ore banks with alternate layers of coal/ coke and ore and burning it for a period to reduce the rock content of the ore, increasing the ferric content by volume and therefore reducing the transport costs. This also reduced the density of the ore and the size of the lumps so allowing shipping in hoppers.

 

The practice was commonplace in quarries which shipped their ore over long distances, The Oxon fields used it widely as did the E Mids quarries supplying distant works.

[rope runner]

Most quarries in the Northants/ Rutland/ Leics fields shipped ore in it's raw or uncrushed state, that dictated the use of tipplers on account of the ore being in much larger chunks which hoppers couldn't handle.

That's not entirely accurate I'm afraid, there's plenty of pictures of hoppers used with uncrushed ore, at places like Exton park in Rutland.

 

Paul A.

[Arthur]

It seems to be a recurring question this. 

 

Ores varied widely in their physical nature.  As I've posted elsewhere, domestic ores were often clay like i.e. wet and sticky, and as Rangers said, often loaded direct from quarry face to wagon, by loading shovel, in big lumps.  They didn't flow well and companies found they often stuck in hoppers.  As a consequence, in the 1950s, tipplers were becoming favoured for domestic ore traffic.

 

However, as Osgood points out, the unloading facilities at the iron works was the determining factor on the type of vehicle which could be accepted.  Where new plant was installed, tipplers were the favoured option.  All Lancashire Steels domestic ores came in tipplers.  Conversely, all of Bilstons domestic ores came in hoppers because they ran them straight onto the blast furnace high line and dumped the ore direct into the stock yard. The move to hoppers was a trend, not a wholesale change.

 

Conversely, imported ores were dry and had been crushed to make them free flowing to ease handling at ports and in bulk carriers.  The new, dedicated, imported ore runs in the 1950s, General Terminus-Clyde Iron/Ravenscraig, Bidston-Shotton and Tyne Dock-Consett, all used hoppers.

 

Any works geared up for hopper delivery would have been able to accommodate any of the 4 wheeled types around at the time.  So trains of mixed hopper types were common and acceptable to the works. Clearly, the Shotton and Consett bogie hoppers needed dedicated loading and unloading facilities. 

 

Similarly, any works taking tipplers could have handled any of the 4 wheeled types (including standard minerals) around.  It was discussed on the linked thread that some of these works, Llanwern and Skinningrove for example, even tippled hoppers.

 

Now, I don’t know this for fact, but it would seem likely that rakes of ore wagons were kept as either entirely hoppers, or entirely tipplers/minerals, to ensure that a rogue vehicle did not arrive at a works which could not handle it.

[Osgood]

The use of hoppers for raw lump ironstone could be that situation previously mentioned where hopper doors were welded up and they were emptied on the tippler!

 

There is a very well illustrated 6 part set of articles on Iron Ore Hoppers by Geoff Kent in Model Railway Journal nos. 176 / 182 / 188 / 190 / 193 / 208.

 

Does anyone have any information on the Charles Roberts 22 Ton hoppers built to diag. 1/161 in the late 40s / early 50s?  I've found a photo of one on Paul Bartlett's excellent resource.

[rope runner]

It seems to be a recurring question this. 

 

Ores varied widely in their physical nature.  As I've posted elsewhere, domestic ores were often clay like i.e. wet and sticky, and as Rangers said, often loaded direct from quarry face to wagon, by loading shovel, in big lumps.  They didn't flow well and companies found they often stuck in hoppers.  As a consequence, in the 1950s, tipplers were becoming favoured for domestic ore traffic.

 

Infact, "big lumps" were not all that common. Often the ore "bench" was shattered with explosives before removal by face shovel.

Any significantly large fragments of ore received a secondary dose of small explosive charge, to break them up further.

 

The use of hoppers for raw lump ironstone could be that situation previously mentioned where hopper doors were welded up and they were emptied on the tippler!

 

Hoppers which had their bottom doors welded shut and release gear stripped also had strengthening ribs welded from the solebar up to the top of the hopper to give some rigidity when tipped, so are easy to tell apart.

 

Hoppers which were conventional always ran together, although they could be of assorted diagrams, wood/steel etc.

This was separate from the tippler rakes (which could also include the modified ex-hoppers and BR 16 ton ex-coal)

 

Paul A.

[Arthur]

Infact, "big lumps" were not all that common. Often the ore "bench" was shattered with explosives before removal by face shovel.

Any significantly large fragments of ore received a secondary dose of small explosive charge, to break them up further.

 

 

 

Yes, but even a secondary blasting is going to leave a very irregular lump size, some of which will be ‘large’, which is, of course, a relative term.  Large enough to cause blockages in bottom discharge wagons.

 

Here’s a quote from the December 1952 Iron & Coal Trades Review, ‘Iron Ore Wagons’ by Brisby and Davis, of the British Iron & Steel Research Association.

 

“(of hopper wagons and tipplers).  There is much to be said for both methods......(the choice) depends largely on local conditions and especially on the types of ore used.”

“When ores are dry and regular in size, which is often the case with imported ores, bottom discharge presents definite advantages, as it is faster than tippling.”

“The advantages.....are much reduced if the works takes in ‘home’ ores, which sometimes have very large lumps, are often sticky, and will not run out when the doors are released.”

“In the last few years, the tendency in the country has been to install tipplers largely because .....all two axle wagons can be tipped.”

 

There’s a considerable difference in the loaded product between blasting and loading the ore (most home ores), and crushing and screening it down to a maximum size (imported ores).