Battery powered/Radio controlled locos

[alfsboy]

I received an email from 'themodelworks' last week saying:

 

 

your 850 Class is almost completed, running under battery power and in the paint shop.  even more important the drive mechanism & battery (360Mah) is fully contained within the frame/boiler, which should give the nay sayers something to think about.

 

850_01.jpg

 

850_07.jpg

 

Hopefully I will get it back from Australia sometime in January and will then be able to run it on the trackwork I am slowly building

 

jayell

That looks interesting .Is it a NWSL gearbox ?.I have a couple of those lurking about from my US H0 days .Thye work well and of course you can remove the whole cabbodle in secends whici s far more sensible than a fixed to the axle arrangment we seem to love here.

[Robin2]

Looks great.

 

What scale is the model and what sort of wireless system does it have?

 

...R

[johnlewis]

Looks great.

 

What scale is the model and what sort of wireless system does it have?

 

...R

 

 

It is a Gibson kit for a GWR 850 saddle tank, scale 4mm to P4 standards, 

using the Deltang system with the basic one train controller, I don't know which Rx board is being used. 

 

It will pretend to be the 2021 class ST that ran on the Bridport Railway in the Victorian/Edwardian era. 

 

I didn't realise Gibson did the frames for the 2021 class until too late but since the 850 looks much like the 2021 only experts will notice ;-),

the obvious difference is that the rear pair of wheels are further apart on the 2021. 

 

jayell

[johnlewis]

That looks interesting .Is it a NWSL gearbox ?.I have a couple of those lurking about from my US H0 days .Thye work well and of course you can remove the whole cabbodle in secends whici s far more sensible than a fixed to the axle arrangment we seem to love here.

 

I don't have details for the motor/gearbox. The builder emailed me a few weeks ago to say amongst other things "the motor required for the model is currently in a shipment of motors from my US supplier" 

 

I believe Bernard has a liking for gearhead motors and 3.7 volt LIPOs. 

http://themodelworksaustralia-com.webs.com/about-us

 

I will post further details when I know more, which will probably be after I take delivery of the 850 and have a chance to inspect it .

 

jayell

[davetheroad]

Yesterday i had a reminder of why i am interested in battery power radio control. Having tested my latest Class 150 DMU conversion i though i would give some long freights an airing on Castlerock. I loaded up a class 66 with 18 bogie coal hoppers and off she went, or rather she went when the hand of god intervened. Stopping and starting was a lottery as was slow running and it was instructive to see the headlight flickering as the shed proceeded at a fair speed along what i thought was clean track. I fired up a couple of radio DMU's and guess what, off they went woth no problem at all. No stuttering, hesitating at points or hand of god required.

 

i had only planned to convert my DMU's to radio as they do a lot of stopping and starting but so do my main line passenger trains so they would benefit as well. As for the freights I have converted the little class 08 but given the lack of performance of the big boys they might have to convert as well.

[OOradio2014]

Thinking of OO Radio Control? I have just completed my second Radio Control OO diesel outline loco.

 

It really is very easy to do, if a little fiddely . Well worth doing to give you great control over your loco. Forward and reverse , proportional, very slow speed to fast (enough). Wander about whilst you control too. It really comes into its own for Marshalling type activities where you make lots of forward/reverse changes over pointwork. Combined with tension lock couplings shunting is fun and can be turned into game of logic. Long runs, heavily loaded at full power is probably best done with track powered locos , but R/C will do it, just you are not using it to its best potential.  Laugh at dirty track problems and wiring -switches etc forget it! Dirty track=better grip.

 

My first  conversion was a Lima Western, relatively easy as enough room in the body and the second after 2 years completely trouble free service is the slightly smaller Warship. Lima locos are good because the motor bogie is at the end leaving the rest of the body space for all the gubbins.

 

Taking the Warship. Take the body off, remove the side window  moulding and replace with THIN clear plastic (you need all the width you can get) remove the plastic posts that hold the steel weight down too.

 

Lay in ten 2/3 A size cells across the chassis  well, obtained by buying two 6v receiver packs (about £12). in the well at the centre of the body. Wired to give 12v .You will need to take the insulation off the sides of the pack and  get it as narrow as possible. CARE NOT to short out the pack! If you remove the Cab detail moulding from the other end to the motor there is just enough room to fit an Antenna Models of Troon LC302 speed controller, a fuse attached to the + terminal of the battery pack (A MUST) and the receiver supplied with an Acoms 2.4GHZ 2 channel R/C system.  I mounted the socket for charging which doubles as the on /off switch into the roof just behind the cab of the non driving end.

 

Plug a dummy plug in to switch the R/C off , out for On with the TX switched ON . Plug the charging lead into the same socket to charge the batteries.  I use a clever charger that cost about £25 this can be set up to give an overnight charge (convenient) One charge lasts me for many operating sessions The 2/3 A size cells in the Warship are 1500MaH capacity. Care when you buy to get a size which will fit. This is plenty! Crammed with cells, no wasted space.  All details will come with your radio and Antenna Models instruction sheet. Beware not all 2.4GHZ receivers are small enough- use Acoms. It will fit.

 

I have found reading about other efforts at R/C on this site very interesting. I can`t believe how complicated some folks have managed to make it. Please come back with your comments.

 

I have no connection with Acoms or Antenna, just pleased with their products.

 

For further info. see my other R/C posts on this site (one for the Triang Big Big Train R/c) and my previous post on the UK Train Sim (Atomic Systems)  forum of two years ago on my Western OO conversion. (Search OO radio control).

 

You can add additional receivers to your one transmitter so you don`t need to keep buying TX`s. 

 

R/C is a revelation, enjoy a new dimension in control.

 

Now for R/C points!

 

Dave

[Robin2]

Welcome OORadio2014 (There is more than one Dave )

 

My own interest is in N Gauge because I don't have space for OO Gauge trains. If BPR/C is possible in N Gauge it is, as you say, a doddle in the larger scales.

 

Nice point about dirty track improving adhesion.

 

What I like about the Deltang receivers is that they include the radio and speed control in one tiny package.

 

I presume you have seen the Freerails website http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45

 

 

...R

[DCB]

The post about the Lima locos is interesting,

 

Many  years ago I converted several OO  Lima diesel  locos to battery power to test my garden railway, a class 47 with 8 AA cells giving around a scale 65 mph and several 37s with 6 X AA cells giving around a scale 50 mph, they simply have on off reverse switches. They proved quite useful, and surprisingly realistic, in fact there is a You Tube video of them, davidcbroad  About three years ago I found the "Model Torque" conversions and realised the motors were very similar to those in some car CD players, and those same pancake motors  take Scalextric drive pinions which mate with Lima spur gears and fit snugly in the lima motor housing. You just have to make up a plastic strap across the two screw holes, You can use quite a wide motor on BoBo chassis but need slim line ones to slip between the centre wheels on the CoCo or CC chassis.

 The advantage of these motors is that they take much less power than the Lima motors, lasting several sessions per charge rather than needing a battery change after a few round trips and or they run much faster, in fact they run faster on 4 AA batteries than  the Lima motor did on 6, My 158 and 26 only use two AA batteries. 

 

 What has stopped me going the R/C route is I need to be able to set the train in motion and nip round the path from Goat of Barton to the top station while the train burrows under the rockery in a seven foot long drain pipe, so I need the fail safe default to be to continue at the last speed set and not simply stop, and this has so far defeated me.

Edited January 19, 2014 by DavidCBroad

[fallen]

Hi David,

 

Interesting to hear you have been thinking about OO scale garden railways, using OO in the garden sparks thoughts of electrical contact problems, batteries will of course get round this but then you start to wonder about radio control, which is fairly common in larger scale garden railways of course.

 

Having to drive the loco through a long tunnel does give an additional problem though!

 

Usually the loco will stop if it loses signal for a second or so as an obvious failsafe. I believe that some of the DelTang receivers can be programmed to give a timeout period of hours rather than seconds though which would get round the problem you have with the tunnel. However I have not tried this myself.

 

If you look at this webpage

 

http://www.deltang.co.uk/rx610-features.htm

 

And scroll down to Cruise Control you will see what I mean.

 

Frank

[Robin2]

Perhaps if you put the transmitter antenna near the tunnel it would work within the tunnel and everywhere outside as well?

 

Have you proved that the signal is lost within the tunnel?

 

...R

[OOradio2014]

Just to reply to a couple of the points raised by others.

 

I have found no need to replace the stock Lima motors with lower current ones if you fit large enough battery capacity (eg 1500mah Nickel Metal Hydride type) the endurance is long enough not to be problem.

 

You can work it out- capacity divided by max current drain. = time before running down. (A lot of the time you are not at full throttle too).  

 

The tunnel problem? I sometimes want to go hands off the TX on my round and round layout so when travelling at the desired speed you just switch off the TX. The speed controller will maintain the speed until you switch on again. You need to get the stick position roughly where it was when you switched off to avoid a sudden halt. I think the loss of signal in a tunnel would be dealt with in much the same way.

 

A long tunnel presents other challenges i.e a derailment, a collision with a slug or even a hedgehog. You had better have very long arms , an access hatch or a long stick with a hook! Why hide you train away for so long, you want to see it!

 

Best regards

 

Dave

[OOradio2014]

Thinking of Radio Control?

 

I have posted some short videos on Youtube to show the installations and also demonstration of Radio Control of  my OO and Tri-ang Big Big Train locos.

 

These are Western and Warship Lima (OO locos) and a Triang Big Big Train Hymek (O gauge).

 

Search OO Radio Control (lled) and Triang Big Big Train Hymek in youtube (this should find them).

 

Any comments / questions welcome.

 

Dave. 

[fallen]

Looks very impressive Dave.

 

The Warship certainly has plenty of power.

 

I like the control you have on the Western too, the uncoupling is very precise.

 

What electronics are you using?

 

Frank

[clecklewyke]

Thinking of Radio Control?

 

....

 

Any comments / questions welcome.

 

Dave. 

1) Can you control several locos simultaneously?

2) How many) 

3) How much does it cost per loco?

4) Can you use accelerator/brake mode?

 

Ian

Edited May 24, 2014 by clecklewyke

[fallen]

Hi Ian,

 

I know the DelTang system best. See the website http://www.deltang.co.uk/index.htm for details. For this, the answers to your question are

 

1 You can get various controllers (transmitters). Some (TX20 and TX21) will control single locos although you can transfer them from one loco to another but you have to switch the locos on and off to do it. There is one, the TX 22, which you can switch between up to 12 locos. The ones not selected continue whatever they were doing when you switched away from them. There is another, the TX 23, that will control three locos at the same time but the locos have to be set up specially for this so it is not perhaps the most flexible way.

 

The way the locos respond to the transmitters depends to some extent on the receiver as they have different programming etc. So the 12 loco system "Selecta" only works with receivers programmed to use it. So if you think you might need this, get the receivers that will operate it, they will work with all the transmitters.

 

Also, there is one receiver that you can switch off remotely and switch on using a magnet near the loco. I have not tried this myself.

 

2 See above for the individual transmitters. There is no real limit to the number of transmitters you can have operating at once since they use sophisticated frequency hopping to avoid interference. You do not need crystals etc. for this system.

 

3 The main cost per loco is the receiver which is about £30. In addition you need a switch, a charging plug, and a battery or two, and connectors for the battery, which add up to about £10 depending on the battery. In addition you need one or more transmitters which cost £20-25 as kits or £45-60 built, and a battery charger or two which start at less than £10 for one that plugs into a USB socket eg on a computer or phone charger.

 

4 Some of the transmitters have inertial controls which simulate the inertia of the loco and train. You turn up the speed and the loco accelerated slowly rather than instantly. I personally don't use this mode, but it is there on some of the transmitters.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Frank

[trisonic]

Consists of locos are common in North America on freight trains (actually the “norm”) - is this, under single control, possible with R/C?

 

Best, Pete.

[fallen]

Hi Pete,

 

Not having an american layout I have not tried consists but my understanding is as follows:

 

The Deltang system like other radio control systems is based on the "binding" of a loco receiver to a particular transmitter. Once bound the loco will follow the instructions from the transmitter, and this binding is retained if you switch the power off and on again, the loco will only bind to another transmitter if it can't find the one it was bound to originally.

 

If you bind two locos to the same transmitter then they will both respond to that transmitter. Provided the locos are similar and the receivers are programmed in the same way (there are different variants available eg centre off vs zero to full speed on the control knob for example) then they should respond more or less the same to the control movements on the transmitter. So if you set up a consist by hand then it should drive as a consist. I am not aware of any way to "trim" this to balance the load though.

 

However I do not know of a way to set it up initially by driving one loco up to the other and then somehow switching them to "consist" mode, other than using the facility of switching off the second loco with the transmitter and then on again using a magnet, which is only available so far on one receiver type.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Frank

[Robin2]

If (like me) you like computer programming you can use a PC connected to one Deltang unit (they are actually transceivers - i.e can be bi-directional) to control many locos in almost any way you want. How many do you want moving at the same time? How big is your fleet?

 

The Deltang Rx6x uses the same Atmel Atmega328 microprocessor as is used in the Arduino Uno.

 

I can provide more info if you are interested.

 

...R

[Switcher102]

I've found this thread with great interest. This is just the kind of discussion I have been wanting. Really glad to see people encouraging RC in model railways, I also think it has got to be the future, in fact I have an O gauge RC locomotive on loan at the moment and am very much enjoying being able to go wherever I like on other layouts, and go as slow as I like over points. Even though I have DCC, it's only with an RC loco that I feel I REALLY AM driving the loco. For some time now I have been thinking exactly like the original poster, Stuart, why can't it be the same as DCC, except the signal travels via the air instead of the rails, as per the Tam Valley Depot system? But please, I've just got to mention something that I fear might cause offence. Please take this as constructive critisism, but you know how it is, I hope, when something keeps bugging you and in the end you've just got to say your piece before the top of your head shoots off into the stratosphere. Well, I'd  rather like to keep the top of my head so here's my piece:-

 

I haven't read all of this thread yet (up to page 6 - so please bear that in mind when reading this) but I'm working my way through.

Question:- Does anyone know the difference between a toy and a model? I get the impression there are quite a substantial amount of modellers who do not.

 

Toys and Models - What's the difference?

 

Toy - a simplified smaller version of the real thing in both looks and movement.

Model - an accurate scaled version of the real thing in both looks and movement (well, as accurate as is practical).

 

I have found that many modellers seem to forget the movement aspect (which is just as important in a demo video as it is in normal operation, in fact more so in this thread). The number of times I have seen a superbly detailed model made to jerk about like a toy is something I find very depressing (and puzzling). Anyway, back to the plot, for me the main initial, repeat initial problem I had with RC was its toy image. RC as a concept is not something that needed to be demonstrated to me, and I doubt many people, I even knew that the technology was getting smaller as I have seen very small toys operated by RC, but the point is they were all toys, or at least moved like them. Some of them may have looked like models but the RC equipment made them move like toys, and I'm afraid to point out that a lot of the videos trying to promote RC for model railways on this thread have also made the models move like toys, which to me defeats the object. We already know RC can do that, the question is can it make them move like the real thing, can it make a model move like a model?

 

Sorry Stuart, but your starter video in #1 is one example, as is the transformer video in #37 and Robin's video in #131. The videos that do promote the RC concept for model railways to me are the DelTang videos (but only when inertia is used) and Frank's video #138 (which also shows better that it is RC, but that is not really my point), and of course Giles's fantastic 1:43 scale lorries (on another RMweb thread). The point I am trying to make is that a model railway is supposed to depict realism, and that realism includes the movement, and for me the problem image RC has had in the past, and perhaps still has for many, is that it is only capable of toy like movement, therefore it is vitally important that any demo video promoting RC shows prototypical movement.

 

Right, I'm off ….. TAXI!!!

Rich

 

 

 

[fallen]

Hi Rich,

 

I do agree with you that a key advantage of radio control is the feeling it gives you that you are driving the loco not just putting volts on the track. Radio control can give much more realistic movement than other control methods, the main reason being the combination of a good control system directly driving the motor and the battery in the loco which means you are not reliant on contact with the track for power. A result is that you feel comfortable driving at slow and realistic speeds as you do not feel the need to take a run at dodgy bits of track or points.

 

Having said all of that, it does depend on how good the chassis is that it is driving and I think some of our first steps into radio control suffered from the fact that they were trying it out on old, worn chassis. Fitting radio control to a new chassis is much more realistic in terms of the movement achieved and I think we are getting better results now.

 

Frank

Edited July 9, 2014 by fallen

[StuartM]

Hi Rich,

welcome to the debate, all comments are welcome.

I agree my video is pretty poor, but the prototype in the video is just that, a prototype to prove the theory, which others have done on this thread far better than I have.

perhaps you could post a video of your layout demonstrating the ultra-smooth running at low speeds

Rgds,

Stuart

[Robin2]

Radio control in N-Gauge is definitely still at the very early stages and I was just trying to demonstrate that it is possible. And, whatever you may think of its quality at this stage, it is (for me) a lot more useable than track powered N-Gauge.

 

I experimented a bit with inertia but I found it unuseable on my very short end-to-end layout - I just crashed into the ends. Maybe this reflects the fact that I'm not sufficiently interested in actually running trains to get enough practice.

 

As @StuartM says,  we will all be delighted to view your system and benefit from your ideas and improvements.

 

...R

[Switcher102]

Hi folks, the taxi driver did a full circle and brought me back to face the flack - the rotter

 

We've got a music festival on here at the moment so haven't got much time to reply at the moment. I would love to give a demo of the RC loco I have but the problem is it's not mine. I'll see what I can do but it may be some time. I aim to buy the system but first I've got to find a locomotive body to put it in. It's just a diesel body and chassis I need, no motor because it's best to have a free running motor system (saves on battery power and can producer better start-stops) and ABC Gears produce such a system which is so free that when the loco has no power it can be pushed and the driving wheels turn.

 

Robin, quote #297:-

 

"I experimented a bit with inertia but I found it unuseable on my very short end-to-end layout - I just crashed into the ends."

 

Ha ha …. that's because you're not used to driving a model. I also only have a very short end to end at home for this O gauge RC diesel but I can do it easy (OK, so I have had the odd misshap). It just means you can't get up to speed (as could not the real thing on such a short end to end). Got it up to speed on Tuesday though at a test track and I must say the batteries have lasted very well indeed even though they are not LiPos.

 

I will try my best to get a demo video, I won't forget, it'll be a while though

Rich

[Switcher102]

Here we go folks. Not my RC equipment, but at last I've found some RC models that actually move like models. Such things are very difficult to find, and the thing you have to realise about the models in these videos is their scale …. 1:87!!!!!!!

 

Cripes, it's difficult to find better movement than this even in O gauge.

 

In my opinion these are the most brilliant RC models I have ever seen, this is Giles standard at 1:87 scale, so if anyone can understand the language (German?) it would be great if they could find more info on these fantastic examples of RC modelling:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMe9_HYW1bo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEXq9JkO5WQ

 

If this can be done at 1:87 scale …. well ….. ?

 

Rich

 

[StuartM]

Probably not achievable in ngauge, but certainly proves the point in 00/H0

I do not understand why the manufactures can't see the potential?