shortliner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Not necessarily radio controlled, but definitely "dead rail" http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2014-11-nov/battery-powered-models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Not necessarily radio controlled, but definitely "dead rail" http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2014-11-nov/battery-powered-models The animated crane article was a lot more use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I'm intrigued to know where you will be using that on an inter-urban/tramway/street-running type layout, and doesn't, AFAICS, have anything at all to do with radio controlled, battery operated locos - your spectacles may see something that mine missed, however. Edited October 31, 2014 by shortliner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm intrigued to know where you will be using that on an inter-urban/tramway/street-running type layout, and doesn't, AFAICS, have anything at all to do with radio controlled, battery operated locos - your spectacles may see something that mine missed, however. I read the first and only comment on the post you linked to. (bernd's) Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The link was actually to the article - rather than the comments Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The link was actually to the article - rather than the comments I just clicked on your link. It goes directly to the relevant comment section of the MRH forum. I don't think you can link directly into an article on MRH. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) When I click on it, it has the relevant articcle at the top of the page , ready to be clicked on and opened up, above the comments Edited October 31, 2014 by shortliner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Tried to link to it a different way - this should now take you direct to the article. http://mrhpub.com/2014-11-nov/land/#/83 Edited October 31, 2014 by shortliner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The point of my post was that, IIRC, the author's previous crane article Bernd mentioned was about an animated trackless crane. i.e. it needed an internal battery. The current (?) article intro paragraph listed the usual battery marketing mantra about "fixing" the symptoms of dirty track and poor pick-up, instead of describing how to not have poor pick-up, for far less cost and inconvenience and of course the repetitive battery replacement maintenance. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 As the person who started this thread, I would like to add my tuppence worth to the debate raging above. There are several reasons I think battery powered, radio controlled model railways are the future 1. Track wiring puts a lot of people off having a model railway, and is the main reason you see lots of simple track plans, By eliminating the need for wiring, people would be free to have as many slips or 3way turnouts as they liked with out the need for a mass of complex wiring. 2. DCC is not the panacea of all wiring and can be in its self a rather complex and expensive form of model control 3. Not everyone has the skill or engineer know how to be able to create a perfect layout with perfect current collection, if such a thing is even possible 4. Track cleaning, wheel cleaning, wiper cleaning, armature cleaning etc are all a nuisance. 5. the simplicity of being able to put a loco on a track and watch it run flawlessly over pointwork can only encourage people into the hobby, which has to be a good thing as this supports the manufactures who supply us with the models we want And finally this is a thread about the virtues of Battery powered remote control, if its not your thing, then perhaps this is not the thread for you. Stuart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I've no personal experience of the polymer batteries that I think most folk are using. I'm guessing they are similar to the li-ion batteries as used in cameras, and the like. These used to lose capacity over the years, whether used or not, and have a non-linear output and a nominal voltage of 3.7V/cell, maximum of 4.2V. I'm thinking that for a tender loco, have the battery in tender, and simply replace the tender with a fully charged one when required but for a tank loco, access through the smoke-box. Maybe a shorter running time, but easier to refuel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 As the person who started this thread, I would like to add my tuppence worth to the debate raging above. There are several reasons I think battery powered, radio controlled model railways are the future 1. Track wiring puts a lot of people off having a model railway, and is the main reason you see lots of simple track plans, By eliminating the need for wiring, people would be free to have as many slips or 3way turnouts as they liked with out the need for a mass of complex wiring. 2. DCC is not the panacea of all wiring and can be in its self a rather complex and expensive form of model control 3. Not everyone has the skill or engineer know how to be able to create a perfect layout with perfect current collection, if such a thing is even possible 4. Track cleaning, wheel cleaning, wiper cleaning, armature cleaning etc are all a nuisance. 5. the simplicity of being able to put a loco on a track and watch it run flawlessly over pointwork can only encourage people into the hobby, which has to be a good thing as this supports the manufactures who supply us with the models we want And finally this is a thread about the virtues of Battery powered remote control, if its not your thing, then perhaps this is not the thread for you. Stuart It's early in the am here and I have lots of model design work to continue all weekend. So I apologize for a somewhat brief professional engineering summary. (may come across as blunt) A. You don't need to be an engineer if the RTR manufacturers provide proper pick-up mechanisms in their designs for maybe an extra few pennies manufacturing cost per loco. Clue - equalization makes a huge difference. And it's certain not the modellers' fault if sound decoders aren't designed with enough on-board, power supply de-coupling. B. A double slip with insulated frogs needs no wiring. C. Shopping to the extent that you need do nothing else, is a different hobby from modelling. D. If you are going onto a forum and stating that battery powered, radio controlled model railways are "THE" future, then you are effectively assertively saying that you are speaking for the ENTIRE Model railway community. So you really can't expect that anyone who disagrees, to ignore the thread and keep any upsetting contrary facts and Laws of Physics to themselves. And finally, what does "/" mean? Battery power AND Radio, or one and not the other? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 As I said, this is a thread about the virtues of Battery powered/remote control, if its not your thing, then perhaps this is not the thread for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin2 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I posted that non-portable devices are seldom battery powered, for good economic reasons. Yet there are multiple critical replies to that post instead praising battery use on portable devices.??? Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were using this argument (in Reply #336) to disagree with my doubts about the economics of real electric trains in Reply #335. I interpreted your comment to mean that where mains electricity is available it should be used. And, by the way, I was not talking about battery powered real trains. ...R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Fwiw, being pedantic, I see the thread title as battery powered or radio controlled locos. I would interpret that as locos powered via the track or other means and radio controlled or alternatively as battery powered and any other control method. However, wireless is similar to radio, but that could include infra red, ultrasonics or some other method, but that is possibly too wide a grouping for this thread, the title specifically being radio, not wireless. As always, the choices available depends on many factors - size of loco, amount of track, individuals' capabilities and budget, of course. I think it is quite valid to discuss other options, benefits or otherwise for the differing systems, without rubbishing the other technologies. For a small layout, with a few locos, then a basic dc system will be fine, for an extensive outdoor layout, then radio and batteries are most likely the answer, for a large indoor system, then dcc is likely to be the go-to solution. There are advantages/disadvantages with everything. Stuart's interpretation as 'Battery powered/remote controlled' could include every remote control system, even just varying the voltage through the track (basic dc) unless it is meant to be battery powered and remote control. There are full sized battery loco's, too, for special purposes. Best wishes, Ray Edited November 1, 2014 by raymw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 As I said, this is a thread about the virtues of Battery powered/remote control, if its not your thing, then perhaps this is not the thread for you. (A quick scan of the cover my current copy of John Drake's marvelous book. ) But it has been a big chunk of my electronics career thing. I built my own RC system (for a model boat) in the late 60's as a teenager and the late John Drake was my brilliant Engineering Team Leader, great mentor and dear friend at International Computers Limited in Stevenage for a several years, during the time he was writing his book and sharing his ideas. Like John however, I'm highly skeptical about people eagerly anticipating and describing various forms of perpetual motion machines, even rechargeable ones, as "the future". When greater than 100% efficiencies in energy transfer are bandied about as the expected performance, then it's time to stand up and call foul. Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Like John however, I'm highly skeptical about people eagerly anticipating and describing various forms of perpetual motion machines, even rechargeable ones, as "the future". When greater than 100% efficiencies in energy transfer are bandied about as the expected performance, then it's time to stand up and call foul. Err, where on earth did that particular titbit come from? Making sweeping statements that the 'laws of physics' mean that your argument is right and others are wrong is nonsense. It isn't a matter of what is scientifically possible - the demonstrations on this thread show that either option (with or without batteries) is viable. It is a matter of personal preference and whether for an individual the amount of hassle associated with batteries is more or less than the present alternative of regular track cleaning. If you are unable to see that there are obviously arguments both for and against it then you're guilty of the very same dogmatism that you are criticising others for. The underlying tone of your posts above is that you believe that everyone you are talking to is an idiot. I hope that it is unintentional but perhaps it explains why you have been getting negative reactions. Edited November 2, 2014 by Rabs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfsboy Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Cant believe the dross on here .Once you have used a battery powered loco it all becomes clear .try it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 As the person who started this thread, I would like to add my tuppence worth to the debate raging above. There are several reasons I think battery powered, radio controlled model railways are the future 1. Track wiring puts a lot of people off having a model railway, and is the main reason you see lots of simple track plans, By eliminating the need for wiring, people would be free to have as many slips or 3way turnouts as they liked with out the need for a mass of complex wiring. 2. DCC is not the panacea of all wiring and can be in its self a rather complex and expensive form of model control 3. Not everyone has the skill or engineer know how to be able to create a perfect layout with perfect current collection, if such a thing is even possible 4. Track cleaning, wheel cleaning, wiper cleaning, armature cleaning etc are all a nuisance. 5. the simplicity of being able to put a loco on a track and watch it run flawlessly over pointwork can only encourage people into the hobby, which has to be a good thing as this supports the manufactures who supply us with the models we want And finally this is a thread about the virtues of Battery powered remote control, if its not your thing, then perhaps this is not the thread for you. Stuart Hi Stuart Just a quick message to say that I completely agree with your assessment. Having spent years working in 7mm scale (DC and DCC), the lure of SM32 live steam finally proved too much to resist, and that in turn introduced me to battery-powered r/c operation alongside the steamers. I absolutely love the silky smooth operation that's possible with a good ESC that's been designed for model railway use (the products of RCS in Australia are my own favourite) and it's real joy to be able to run trains without any track cleaning at all. To watch my battery-powered NGG16 and K1 Beyer Garratts snaking smoothly around the garden, using the variable momentum function in the ESC for acceleration and braking, is a pleasure that far surpasses what I was able to achieve in 7mm scale. I personally hope that the technology can be miniaturised for use in the smaller scales in the future. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Anderson Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) ................ and the late John Drake was my brilliant Engineering Team Leader, great mentor and dear friend at International Computers Limited in Stevenage for a several years, during the time he was writing his book and sharing his ideas. Andy Now I know why I like you. Not ICL but along the road at BAC's missile plant in Hangar 1! Edited November 2, 2014 by Ken Anderson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Err, where on earth did that particular titbit come from? Making sweeping statements that the 'laws of physics' mean that your argument is right and others are wrong is nonsense. It isn't a matter of what is scientifically possible - the demonstrations on this thread show that either option (with or without batteries) is viable. It is a matter of personal preference and whether for an individual the amount of hassle associated with batteries is more or less than the present alternative of regular track cleaning. If you are unable to see that there are obviously arguments both for and against it then you're guilty of the very same dogmatism that you are criticising others for. The underlying tone of your posts above is that you believe that everyone you are talking to is an idiot. I hope that it is unintentional but perhaps it explains why you have been getting negative reactions. This is one of several "battery powered trains are the only way to go threads" that keep popping up here, so I tend to accumulate remarks from various ones. The "Just by improving technology, we should be able to recharge a 3 Amp hour battery in one minute" really got to me. Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Ah, I hadn't spotted that one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The "Just by improving technology, we should be able to recharge a 3 Amp hour battery in one minute" really got to me. Near, they just want a big one of these.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Near, they just want a big one of these.......... Yup. Nuclear power batteries. "No user serviceable parts inside" Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Yer, but it would mean your life time would be shorter than the battery's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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