Project Hawick and the Waverley Route

[37175]

I would think that points in a tunnel would be a no-no, especially one for routine moves.

 

Newcastleton P.way may be able to advise.

[Hawick_1987]

From member cessna152towser:

I've walked through Whitrope Tunnel about twenty years ago and never saw any trace of there having been a possible side tunnel.
Park Tunnel at Peebles on the cross-country line which went from the Waverley Route at Galashiels across to Symington on the West Coast Main Line has a "glory hole". About mid way on the north side of the tunnel a low arch leads off into what appears to be a natural hollow inside the hill. When I went in there about 20 years ago there were rusty remains of a brazier and tools as though this had been used as a workmens' bothy at one time. Allegedly the Royal Train was stored in Park Tunnel during World War 2 but I think this is an urban myth since there would still have been trains passing through the main tunnel and the glory hole was not large enough to store a train in.

[Newcastleton P.Way]

I would think that points in a tunnel would be a no-no, especially one for routine moves.

 

Newcastleton P.way may be able to advise.

Whole crossovers in Cowlairs Tunnel!! Not unknown, but not common to have points in tunnels. Traps a definite no-no.

 

I've just read the full string there and agree with Matt that it's got all the hallmarks of a railwayman's p*ss take that one, a bit like the "national reserve" of steam locos bricked- up somewhere inside Box. I would also be gobsmacked if the railway authorities tagged live ammunition on the back of passenger trains, even in wartime.

[Hawick_1987]

Border Collie on PH:

 

 

I take on board all that has been said, but I can specifically remember seeing an old disused signal inside the Tunnel, plus an old set of points just after it, (no rails on the spur) plus noticing the brickwork was 'newer' than the surrounding area......

And there was an overhead air vent that certainly hadn't been filled it (remember this was back in 1964) as I recall stopping under it, looking up and getting soaked- that's one of the reasons I turned back.

There certainly also was a set of switches in the signalbox itself that all the times I was there, were covered with a canvas hood and told not to touch as these were for a signal and points that no longer were in use.

However, I can concede that Mr Harkness, the signalman, may have been spinning me a yarn, but it had a ring of truth to it.

That's why I have asked a friend who works in our local Dumfries Archives Section, if he can dig up some wartime files covering the movement of trains carrying Armaments from Longtown to Scotland, and if he does, I'll post the findings here.

I can say that Mr Harkness also said the Tunnel was haunted by the ghost of an Liverpool Irish navvie, who was killed "...over 100 years ago whilst building the Tunnel.." but I certainly didn't believe that story!

I must try and visit the Heritage Centre at Whitrope- sounds fascinating. How do I find out about it?

David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

 

I've sent him on details of the main web site

Edited January 18, 2013 by Hawick_1987

[Hawick_1987]

BorderCollie:

To be honest, I can't remember if I looked up the vent- probably not, as I think I was walking between both sets of rails, and suddenly got deluged by a great shower of water coming down from the vent area on the roof- so I can't see me loking right up the vent. And I agree that inside the Tunnel, it was all very wet throughout the part I walked in.

My friend who works in our local Archives Section emailed me at the weekend to say he has limited records of the Longtown Armaments Factory, but he did find reference to armaments being shunted from the factory using one of their own engines to be hooked up on the main Waverley Line to "engines and carriages heading North, sometimes under cover of darkness..."

However, I think Mr Harness may have either exaggerated the story about the 'hidden tunnel siding', or just was taking the mickey out of me ( which annoys me).

If this was the case, can I sincerely apologise to anyone who has spent time researching my story- in my defence, can I say that I have believed it to be true for the last 50 years. else I wouldn't have published it. I feel like a right old fool now.

David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

 

I often traveled from Hawick up to Edinburgh on the trains back in 1964-1965- more often that I traveled down to Carlisle, and these are some of my memories :

Catching the Saturday morning early train at Hawick to Edinburgh, that I think started down in London.

THE SMELLS : Standing at Hawick Station, you could smell the lanolin wool from the factory just below the platform, at Mansfield Road.
Then after the train pulled away, you first smelled the coal-gas from the old Gasworks down Mansfield Road, quickly followed by the unmistakable smell of the sewage works, down by the Rugby Grounds.
As soon as you reached the long cutting above the road from Burnfoot to Hornshole, this was replaced by the lovely smell of fresh grass.

AT GALASHIELS : Don't know why, but nearly every time the train pulled into Galashiels Station, I had someone pull open the door to my carriage (Remember the doors that would only open by pulling the leather strap to open the window, so you could lean out and open the lock from the outside?) and demand to inspect my ticket. I must have looked a real shifty kid then!

THE FIREFIELDS : Wonder if anyone else remembers them? Just before Newtongrange Station (I think, or was it Gorebridge??) I always remember passing old coal fields on the left side of the train, that had vast tracts of the tip spouting smoke and sometimes even flames. It made the whole train stink of Sulphur, all the way to the Millerhill Goods Yards. We always called the coal fields the "Firefields".

AT EDINBURGH WAVERLEY : I remember putting an old 1d into a model of a railway engine, to make its wheels go round, located in the main waiting rooms in the Station- plus in the same waiting room, putting 2d in a machine that stamped out your name on a 3" long piece of metal. What use it was for, I still don't know?
I also once spent 2/6d on an ultra-modern machine that recorded your voice onto a 45rpm vinyl single- "Ready in just 5 minutes" and this machine was located at the foot of the taxi rank.

Anyone else remember this too?

David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

 

Anyone else heard of the Firefields?  

[Hawick_1987]

"Firefields" was our pet name for the coal slag filled fields- they were definitely there though, as I remember in some Summer months that Edinburgh bound trains had to often slow down to pass the fields, due to the amount of sulpherous smoke belching out of the ground.
I wonder if, even nowadays, if there STILL is underground seams burning in the same location.

David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

[Hawick_1987]

View SE on Platform 7, with ex-North British J37 0-6-0 No. 64608 ready to leave on the 18.13 slow up the Waverley Route to Hawick (arriving 19.47). The scene shows this great Station in its less imposing state after the - by then decaying - glass roof with end-screens was rebuilt in 1957. Carlisle (Citadel) was owned jointly by the London & North Western and Caledonian Railways, but was unique in the number of other Companies it served:- North Eastern, Midland and Maryport & Carlisle from the south end; North British and Glasgow & South Western from the north - another train-watcher's paradise.

 

Image Copyright Ben Brooksbank. This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic Licence. To view a copy of this licence, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, 171 Second Street, Suite 300, San Francisco, California, 94105, USA.

 

[Guest Max Stafford]

A very unusual spot there; a J37 on the Skud. A definite first for me!

[Guest Max Stafford]

Unless of course it's going to Langholm or Silloth!

I'm prepared to take the caption at face value though and you've just opened up an interesting modelling possibility for me. Thanks!

Edited January 23, 2013 by Max Stafford

[jamie92208]

 

"Firefields" was our pet name for the coal slag filled fields- they were definitely there though, as I remember in some Summer months that Edinburgh bound trains had to often slow down to pass the fields, due to the amount of sulpherous smoke belching out of the ground.

I wonder if, even nowadays, if there STILL is underground seams burning in the same location.

 

David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

These are quite common.  There is (or was until very recently) a small spoil heap in the fields approaching Morley station from Leeds.  This was still warn from underground fires at least 40 to 50 years after mining finished.  It was very rarely covered in snow and any snow that did fall melted very quickly.

 

Jamie

[Hawick_1987]

Sorry it has been a while, so much to see and catch up with on here! 

['CHARD]

Welcome back.

[Hawick_1987]

Welcome back.

 

Cheers 

[Willie Yeomans]

You are right. We used to call them the burning bings and they were visible from the A7 at the Gore Glen, just south of the Lady Vic, well into the 1970s. There was a lonely wee concrete shed right in the middle of it (apparently).

 

 

"Firefields" was our pet name for the coal slag filled fields- they were definitely there though, as I remember in some Summer months that Edinburgh bound trains had to often slow down to pass the fields, due to the amount of sulpherous smoke belching out of the ground.I wonder if, even nowadays, if there STILL is underground seams burning in the same location.David Grieve (aka Border Collie)

['CHARD]

All I can hear in my head now, is the hugely appropriate 'Fields of Fire' by Fife's finest 

[Hawick_1987]

You are right. We used to call them the burning bings and they were visible from the A7 at the Gore Glen, just south of the Lady Vic, well into the 1970s. There was a lonely wee concrete shed right in the middle of it (apparently).

 

 

Thanks for the information Willie, i'll pass this onto David

[cessna152towser]

Re the alleged points in Whitrope tunnel, perhaps they were catch points, to deflect any stock which broke away and ran back down the gradient.

[Hawick_1987]

Welcome aboard Alex and thanks for the suggestion.

[Hawick_1987]

We have created a calendar of auld Hawick photos for community group Project Hawick, which we are selling for charity. Now, I have just under 50 copies left if anyone is interested. They each contain 13 months (January 2014-January 2015), alongside informative historical captions. The proceeds will be going to Streets Ahead Borders - a Hawick-based charity that provides supported accommodation for adults with learning disabilities - enabling them to live in their own home, participate in the local community, grow relationships, and have an opportunity to make informed decisions about their lives.

 

Simply PM me; provide a name, address (and any flat numbers etc.), postcode and the amount of calendars you would like. Cash payments will be accepted for deliveries within Hawick only.

 

For exiled Teries and non-natives, an official PayPal account has been set-up to receive online payments. If you'd prefer to pay via this method, simply use projecthawick@gmail.com as the receiving address ('Their email'). There is a £1 charge for delivering within the U.K, and a £3 charge to deliver around the World. We can send you an invoice first if you'd prefer. Delivery over the festive period typically takes between 5-7 working days, so please be patient! 

 

Any further questions can be directed to projecthawick@gmail.com

 

I hope everyone had a guid Xmas!     

 

Sample photos below...

 

 

 

 

[37175]

Nice old photos of Hawick there, and great to see Bishop Eric Treacy's shot of 61219 just south of Shankend. I remember using this photo in Journal 9 (summer 2006), the National Railway Museum were extremely helpful for reproduction rights, something I've only ever encountered once or twice from national institutions!

['CHARD]

Calendar is a fantastic idea, although there's no price given, only delivery/ postage! 

 

The photo of 61219 bears closer scrutiny I think.  The headlamp positions indicate a Class C, but I put it to you chaps more knowledgeable about such things, that this is a livestock and parcels service, given the first two vehicles look like horse boxes.  I'm certain this traffic was still relatively common in 1961, I wonder if the vans came on at St Boswells, or have been worked throughout from an Edinburgh yard.  Does anyone know the distances/ durations livestock was permitted to go without recessing for housekeeping/ humane reasons, or were horses different as grooms were conveyed with them?

Edited December 27, 2013 by 'CHARD

[The Stationmaster]

Calendar is a fantastic idea, although there's no price given, only delivery/ postage! 

 

The photo of 61219 bears closer scrutiny I think.  The headlamp positions indicate a Class C, but I put it to you chaps more knowledgeable about such things, that this is a livestock and parcels service, given the first two vehicles look like horse boxes.  I'm certain this traffic was still relatively common in 1961, I wonder if the vans came on at St Boswells, or have been worked throughout from an Edinburgh yard.  Does anyone know the distances/ durations livestock was permitted to go without recessing for housekeeping/ humane reasons, or were horses different as grooms were conveyed with them?

 

It's even more interesting than that!  At that time Class C covered a wealth of things, not just those you mention (which effectively meant trains  composed entirely of vehicles  conforming to coaching stock requirements) but also Express freight, livestock, perishables or ballast trains with the automatic brake operative on not less than half the train.  But having diverted along that little byway it does look to be in the 'conforming with coaching stock requirement category from the vehicles we can see.

 

But, unless the local railwaymen were being somewhat cavalier about applying the Regulations, the next point is that the horseboxes might have been empty and certainly weren't conveying any grooms or attendants because if that had been the case the train should have been reclassified as a passenger train, and it is definitely not lamped as one.  I doubt if horses would be sent without an accompanying person as they were valuable and generally treated with kidgloves so I conclude those horseboxes were being sent empty to 'somewhere' (which saves me checking all the watering and fodder details although they were of course different for different types of animal etc ).

 

And of cpurse there's a handy liitle tip in there for those modelling that period and who bother to lamp their trains.

['CHARD]

Aha!  Yes, I forgot the Class 1 horse lamp rule.  If I ever knew it (I think I did once!).  These are bound for Canal in that case, and I'm prepared to wager they have come from Kelso on this occasion, via St B's.  Duly recessed, and added as head traffic.

 

Returning to the calendar, Lochpark PW was already deconsecrated in '68 for conversion to light industrial units.  That's answered a few longstanding niggles I had.

[Hawick_1987]

'CHARD - the calendars are £5 each, my bad... 

 

Matt, yes the NRM can be very accommodating if you ask very nicely!

 

As for the loco, we do not have many knowledgeable chaps on board, so we assumed it was a class B1 - but if we have messed up then oh dear, oh dear! 

['CHARD]

You're fine mate - everything's good and she is a B1, no worries there. 

 

Us lot like to get inside the more arcane workings of the railway - hence the interest in what the horse carriers were doing in the train.

 

Keep up the great work.  I'll be on to you chaps separately about a calendar!