Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I took these pictures back in the early 2000's - fortunately I was interested enough to phot anything remotely SP or second generation, But I wasn't paying enough attention, and so missed what made these units special. no prizes, but have fun working out why they're more interesting than they seem at first glance. If I'd known, I would have photographed them more carefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2012 Dash2 electrical cabinets on both? HTC trucks and a long frame on the UP unit, which carries a number formerly borne by an SD40. It also seems to have extended range dynamics? Not many ideas here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Both ex-C&NW units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 you're both partly correct... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well, SP 8578 used to be an SD45 and presumably now has a V16 instead of a V20 in it, while UP 3019 started life as an SD40-2. Both built for CNW. Almost every visual detail about them is different though. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 #8578 looks like one of the SD45 rebuilds, so its a 16-645 prime mover in a SD45 carbody modified with a GP40 rear end...the lack of a flare is a bit of a giveaway. Its also not of SP origin, the fuel fank doesn't have the trademark filler at each end The other I'm not so certain of, I know it is ex-CNW and CTC equipped with its bell mounted at the top edge of the short hood, other than that...pass! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Zunnan is on the money.... #8578 is 2/3rds SD45 and 1/3rd GP40 carbody - it's one of MKs swap jobs, the flared radiator cores went to GP40s with HEP for pasenger service. The flare is in place as far as the rad section, then it abruptly ends. The short porch is probably the biggest give-away that it's not a conventional SD40. #3019 is a pure CNW unit, with the nose bell still in place. In both cases, if I'd looked a little more carefully at the time, I would have taken more pictures... both units were unusual then, and extinct now I suppose what I learned is that even though I find the current parade of comfort cab GE tractors dull, if I looked a little more closely I would see lots of interesting variations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2012 Some were also rebuilds of ex SP SDP45,s which had a slightly longer rear hood Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If you want overkill of the MK SP unit above, it differs from the majority of SD45 rebuilds too, being one of only 10 rebuilt like this (for the SP). It has a different arrangement for the tall engine room doors and short doors under the fan grilles. These GP40 grafts had 11 tall and 7 short on the left side with 11 tall and 6 short on the right. The conventional MK SD45 carbody rebuilds that retained the flaired radiators had 9 tall and 7 short on the right with 8 tall and 8 short on the right. The original SD45s had 10 tall doors on either side with 7 short on the left and 8 short on the right. A 'simple' hack of an SD45 to produce a model of one of these isn't quite so simple! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 The lease power frenzy of that time created some very strange critters. This one, known as Frankenstein, is nearly as bizarre as anything to come out of the NdeM shops at San Luis Potosi...but National Railway created it from a tunnel motor and the long hood from a Southern SD40-2 http://www.6axlepwr.com/NREX_9402.html And leave it to Brian Banna to create an utter masterpiece of a model of it. He now lives near me so I can glom off his knowledge and machining skills Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 A 'simple' hack of an SD45 to produce a model of one of these isn't quite so simple! Hmm, food for thought Zunnan. I was intending to start modifying some of my collection to match locomotives I've actually seen, starting with SD40m-2s 2702 (wreck rebuild, all grey nose, patched) 2715 (plain vanilla 40, patched) and 8578 and SD38-2 824. Looks like 8578 will be more than I anticipated! Good to see Brian's Frankenstein again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I suppose what I learned is that even though I find the current parade of comfort cab GE tractors dull, if I looked a little more closely I would see lots of interesting variations. True -- BNSF is now ordering what I believe are called ES44AC C4 locos. They are A1A-A1A with the center axle liftable via a third cylinder on the sideframe, to put more loco weight on the powered axles during starting. For a number of years, there haven't been a whole lot of changes in what we see, but for the last year or so there have been some new items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Thank you, JWB, I did not know about the 'traction control' on the ES44C4s. Intriguing - BNSF appear to have decided the extra complication of the lifting centre axle is worth the removal of a traction motor per truck. (Plus the effect on performance - exactly what that effect is appears to be a subject of some discussion!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 True -- BNSF is now ordering what I believe are called ES44AC C4 locos. They are A1A-A1A with the center axle liftable via a third cylinder on the sideframe, to put more loco weight on the powered axles during starting. For a number of years, there haven't been a whole lot of changes in what we see, but for the last year or so there have been some new items. I think that pic needs more orange Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 They are A1A-A1A with the center axle liftable via a third cylinder on the sideframe, to put more loco weight on the powered axles during starting. I think you have misunderstood the system. They have a cylinder system that varies the pressure of the axles on the rails to maintain consistent adhesion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I'm not sure what I've misunderstood here. There are numerous threads on US discussion forums about these locos, such as http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1904026 While I'm not an insider to these issues, what I gather from all these threads is that (1) they are A1A-A1A locos with 6 axles and 4 traction motors, and (2) the center axle has a lifting capability for use during starts. One comment in the thread linked above says "An A1A locomotive won't be able to develop as much low-speed tractive effort as a locomotive with six driven axles, because, even with the weight shifting, axle load limitations will prevent putting as much weight on drivers as the standard ES44AC unit can. That will limit the ability of the C4's to be used interchangeably with ES44AC's, on coal drags for instance. The C4's look like GE's effort to build a dedicated high-speed locomotive without going to the effort of paring down weight to allow only four axles. " Since I'm just summarizing what I've read in several sources, I'm not sure what I misunderstood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cnw6847 Posted December 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 3, 2012 UP 3019 is ex CNW no. 6838 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 4, 2012 Has the last decade been any different from the 70's and 80's when railroads were buying SD40's in vast numbers? There is still plenty of variety. I wonder when/if the US will see new main line Bo Bo locomotives for freight operations, at one time the GP was the default choice rather than the SD. Some of the switchers and gensets could be well up to lighter main line use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 I'm not sure what I've misunderstood here. There are numerous threads on US discussion forums about these locos, such as http://www.trainorde...d.php?1,1904026 While I'm not an insider to these issues, what I gather from all these threads is that (1) they are A1A-A1A locos with 6 axles and 4 traction motors, and (2) the center axle has a lifting capability for use during starts. One comment in the thread linked above says "An A1A locomotive won't be able to develop as much low-speed tractive effort as a locomotive with six driven axles, because, even with the weight shifting, axle load limitations will prevent putting as much weight on drivers as the standard ES44AC unit can. That will limit the ability of the C4's to be used interchangeably with ES44AC's, on coal drags for instance. The C4's look like GE's effort to build a dedicated high-speed locomotive without going to the effort of paring down weight to allow only four axles. " Since I'm just summarizing what I've read in several sources, I'm not sure what I misunderstood. Sounds like a development of the lever-actuated axle weight compensation system that SNCF applied to its A1A-A1A 68000/68500 series locomotives back in the 'sixties? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Has the last decade been any different from the 70's and 80's when railroads were buying SD40's in vast numbers? There is still plenty of variety. I wonder when/if the US will see new main line Bo Bo locomotives for freight operations, at one time the GP was the default choice rather than the SD. Some of the switchers and gensets could be well up to lighter main line use. No, they've been buying SD70s, Dash 9s, and ES40/ES44s in vast numbers instead. I'm not sure that you will see Bo-Bos any time soon, primarily for weight distribution reasons. GPs worke because they are smaller. There are still a lot of GPs around (e.g. NS has been busy rebuilding GP38s and GP40s into GP40-2s), but bigger 4-axle power isn't that common. NS got rid of their (ex-Conrail) B40-8s around 2006. It would appear that the C4s are probably a cost reduction effort for locos on that are used on lighter trains (intermodals, block auto trains etc.) and probably in the flatter areas where BNSF runs. They won't be replacing six-axle power for most trains anytime soon. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 4, 2012 The big change seems to be the reversal in fortunes between GE and EMD. Now GE is top cat and EMD are the alternative choice, a remarkable reversal considering that until the late 80's GE's -7 line and the U boats before them were a distant second to EMD's equivalent products. Where I do feel sad isn't so much a lack of variety in equipment but rather the consolidation that has resulted in a small number of mega rail roads. Although even there, if you make the effort to get away from the main lines there is still plenty f variety in short line and regional roads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Now GE is top cat and EMD are the alternative choice Ironic considering who owns EMD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 EMD's adoption of steerable trucks on SD70Ms allowed railroads that had previously been mostly B-B to use C-C locos -- Alaska RR and Florida East Coast are good examples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 4, 2012 Ironic considering who owns EMD I think it'll be interesting to see how EMD develops with Cat's muscle behind them. They really suffered when GE brought out the GEVO line, and their private equity owners were never going to have the sort of resources and financial security that GE have. Now Cat will bring access to a lot of advanced and leading edge engine technology and serious resources it may help them recover some of the ground they lost to GE. In particular, I think access to Caterpillars engine know how could be a real game changer for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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