Penrhos1920 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I'm thinking of modelling the South Wales Pullman as it ran the last day that it was hauled by a Castle. I haven't found out which castle it was or the date, but Tregenna Castle was photographed in May 1961. So Tregenna it might be: http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/4383071344/ The good news it that all of the coaches are available from Hornby. Only a couple need renumbering. But which loco to buy? As I understand it there were more variations of GWR Castle than pannier tanks, and there were a lot of pannier tanks! So which of the Hornby castles should I buy and what modifications does it need to accurately model 5006 as it ran in May 1961? Thanks Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted November 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2012 IIRC wasn't Tregenna Castle the one that had the fastest recorded speed for a Castle (something like 105 or 106mph) so worth having that one IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Almost: One member of the class, number 5006 Tregenna Castle achieved a record on June 6, 1932, by hauling the up Cheltenham Flyer, at that time the World's fastest train, from Swindon to Paddington in 56 minutes 47 seconds for the 77.3 miles, against a schedule that was normally 65 minutes. Greatwestern.org.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Hi Richard, You are right about the amount of variation in the class but when you think that there were 171 of them built or converted into Castles, that is understandable. First built in 1923, last in 1950... We are looking at No. 5006 Tregenna Castle. This is one of the earlier batches of Castles (built1927) but she had the straight frames (rather than the joggled frames as per my avatar engine). She therefore had the wide version of the 'Vauxhall' style inside valve cover as built but the photo shows her with a modified BR 'box' shape version of this signature item. The smokebox shedcode plate would have been a Landore (87E) one as she wasn't transferred to Llanelly until 6/7/61. By then (although not obvious in your picture), she would have had the BR style curve / curve rather than the GWR style curve / straight / curve outside steam pipes. The engine appears to have had the exposed sand boxes under the cab fitted by the time you state and she has the more 'normal' single chimney / 5 row hydrostatic lubricator / 2 row superheater boiler (No. 6656 mated to her in 13/7/60 and not much different to No. 6672 as fitted to No. 4079 today) fitted. She is one of the locos to receive the fire iron tool tunnel later in life rather than as built and as such she is without the brass strip on the front vertical edge of the cab. Her last tender allocation on 11/7/60 was No. 2784 which was a 4,000 gallon Collett designed unit. Both boiler and tender went to the scrapyard with her. To complete her story, she was withdrawn on 3/4/62 with a mere 1,812,966 miles on the clock... I will allow those with more familiarity with what Hornby have released to give you the advice as to which one to choose to fit the above but name / number / shed plates are available from both Fox and Modelmaster. I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Edit: having had a nose around the interweb, Hornby's R2849 Beverston Castle No. 5068 is pretty darn close. The minimum you would have to do would be to replace the ferret & dartboard with the later totem, new name / number / shed plates and painting out the brass trims on the cab fronts with a bit of green. This would be acceptable to most eyes as she flashes past at over 80 (scale) mph with the miniature South Wales Pullman! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thanks castle. I'm pleasantly surprised it can be that easy. What might I need to do to convince the experts? Weren't the second batch of castles (which includes 5006) thought to be the fastest/best? Something to do with their chassis being set up with Zeiss alignment gear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hi Richard, I had all these good intentions of getting in from work and answering your question but then I sat down with a cup of coffee and drank that and then I opened my eyes again and it was 20:30hrs... I thought coffee was supposed to wake you up?!? Right - to business. The Zeiss equipment worked in conjunction with a specially constructed Churchill grinding machine and this was used to get the wheels square in the frames and the cylinders at 90 degrees to the wheels. The first batch of Castles built with this Nos. 5023 - 5032 all built in 1934 and the idea was to delay the onset of mechanical wear and tear by having everything straight in the first place. Kenneth Cook (Swindon engineer & author) booked trips on them to check their wear at 40,000, 80,000 & approx. 110 - 115,000 miles. He reported that only on the last journeys was the slightest hint of side play become noticeable on some engines. This amazingly allowed No. 5030 Shirburn Castle to go for 405,000 miles and No. 6004 King George III did 411,000 miles before their next general repairs! Earlier locomotives were aligned upon their subsequent visits to 'the factory'. With regard to little Tregenna Castle, the best advice will undoubtably be to get some good period pictures of the real thing. I imagine that the one thing that will require tweaking is the inside valve cover as this a modification. I think that the rest of it will be pretty good but only the pictures will tell. The few pictures I have in my reference volumes show her in the 1950s or earlier when she still had the 'wide Vauxhall' inside valve cover. Perhaps someone else out there in RMWEB land can help out with a picture or two? I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Which one was it on the date, the gentleman asks. 5048 Earl of Devon hauled the last down working and 4090 Dartmouth Castle the last up. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted December 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 1, 2012 If you want a couple of decent photos of 5006 especially with one showing the front end nicely in the early BR period theres a couple in the 'Book of the castles' by Ian Sixsmith. The captions suggest she was very much as built at this time when at Canton shed. The photos are also available via here http://www.transporttreasury.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted December 1, 2012 Author Share Posted December 1, 2012 Which one was it on the date, the gentleman asks. 5048 Earl of Devon hauled the last down working and 4090 Dartmouth Castle the last up. Chris Thanks Chris, what was the date? Did it change to Britannias the next day? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Hi All, The pictures in The Book of the Castles (where much of this data comes from) is very much as Rob says - early BR rather than late! The fire iron tunnel was done in the 1930s and the steam pipes were a BR modification fairly early on. Only the valve cover was changed post that time. Thanks to Chris and in the interest of completeness: No. 5048 Earl of Devon - built 1936, renamed from Cranbrook Castle 24/8/37. Pretty much the same as Tregenna by 1961, she never had double chimney fitted and was allocated to Cardiff Canton between 3/11/60 & 5/7/61. She had boiler No. 7622 at the end (again very similar to No. 4079s unit). Tender at the time was No. 2398 which was a 4,000 gallon Collett unit. The only slight difference was in the inside valve cover, being built with the square with rounded front top edge version although this was modified to have a squared off tread plate version with a raised centre section sloping towards the smokebox. Withdrawn 14/8/62 with 1,327,811 miles under her wheels. The previous base model holds true although as she was built with the tool tunnel she would have the brass strip on the front vertical edge of the cab from new. Chris is it No. 4090 Dorchester Castle or No. 4088 Dartmouth Castle please? I suspect it is No. 4088 as I think that No. 4090 was in Swindon works at the specified time... I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Chris is it No. 4090 Dorchester Castle or No. 4088 Dartmouth Castle please? I suspect it is No. 4088 as I think that No. 4090 was in Swindon works at the specified time... According to the caption in Hugh Ballantyne's book "Western Steam In Colour 2" to Hugh's own photograph it is 4090 Dorchester Castle, complete with 87E shedplate. Why on earth was I thinking of Dartmouth?! Sorry folks, I plead the headaches. Mind you: part of the caption reads as follows: "No. 4090 was built in 1925, became one of 66 of the class to be fitted with a double chimney in 1957 and was withdrawn in 1963". The trouble with that is that the loco in the photograph, taken on 8th September 1961, looks to me like it has a single chimney! The part of the smokebox number plate visible behind the headboard looks like 4090. The caption also says that this engine had a smokebox 4 inches longer than the rest of the double-chimneyed locomotives. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Hi All, Don't worry Chris - nothing I haven't done here on RMWEB myself. If you haven't got something occasionally wrong them you probably haven't proffered very much to you fellow railway modellers! Right, now - the date that Richard was going for was May 1961 when No. 4090 was definitely in Swindon works. However it went from Swindon to Neath in August so it is quite possible that it is No. 4090 in September. As Chris says, she is a bit of an oddball as she was an early joggled frames machine that received the later front end AND the double chimney / mechanical lubricator / 4 row superheater AND the long smokebox (she was the only one that kept this until scrapping) but would have not had the brass trim to the front vertical cab edges as the loco was fitted with the fire iron tool tunnel later on. As such, Richard may want to look at doing No. 5048 or sticking with Tregenna Castle! I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 I've made a start with the coaches but finalised my choice of loco but I have found a series of photos: https://plus.google.com/photos/114894727231550685470/albums/5854029827332539889 There is no date on the photos but they do show the whole train from both ends. I can't decide whether the loco is 4080 or 4090. Any ideas please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Thanks Chris, what was the date? Did it change to Britannias the next day? The South Wales Pullman changed to diesel haulage the next day in the shape of the Wetern Region Blue Pullman trains. The Brits at Canton left the Western Region at at the end of the Summner timetable in 1961, the same time that steam haulage finished on the SWP. I've made a start with the coaches but finalised my choice of loco but I have found a series of photos: https://plus.google.com/photos/114894727231550685470/albums/5854029827332539889 There is no date on the photos but they do show the whole train from both ends. I can't decide whether the loco is 4080 or 4090. Any ideas please? Nice set of photos. Going by the makeup of the train I'd suggest this was taken in the 60s. For a long time the brake cars on the service were 54 and 55, 27 seemed to be used from quite late on. I had a look at doing a late 50s set at one point. In the end my modelling period went forward in time too far to do it but I remember there being a lot of work to convert what was avaliable from Hornby into the correct type coaches. I think the Castle is more likely to be 4090 as 4080 was a Canton Engine from mid 60 and before that was at Shrewsbury and Newton Abbot and the loco in the picture definately has Landore buffers! I don't have all my references to hand so can't be 100% certain though. Justin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich5ltr Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Facinating thread, I am always amazed by the level of detailed knowledge members on here have! Looking at the images of the South Wales Pullman posted brake Car 55 has 6 passenger windows whereas the Hornby model of Car 54 only has 5 or did Hornby get this wrong. I've looked at Pulman cars and they all seem to have many different window configurations. Also, I must ask, in what way did the buffers on Castles differ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 Also, I must ask, in what way did the buffers on Castles differ? I think that Justin is referring to the high level of cleaning that Landore applied to their buffers for crack express engines. It makes them look white in the photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Facinating thread, I am always amazed by the level of detailed knowledge members on here have! Looking at the images of the South Wales Pullman posted brake Car 55 has 6 passenger windows whereas the Hornby model of Car 54 only has 5 or did Hornby get this wrong. I've looked at Pulman cars and they all seem to have many different window configurations. Also, I must ask, in what way did the buffers on Castles differ? You got it completely right with regard to the Pullman brake coaches. There were serveral different types, Hornby have done one moulding that they use for everything whether or not it's actually correct for that particular vehicle. Cars 54 and 55 both had six windows. I'm not sure exactly which ones the Hornby model is correct for. I'm sure with a little reasearch the answer could be found. I think that Justin is referring to the high level of cleaning that Landore applied to their buffers for crack express engines. It makes them look white in the photo. As well as being kept very clean Landore actually painted the buffers on their Castles silver. There's a good picture illustrating this here. I was indeed refering to them being silver in my post but there were taper and parallel barrelled buffers fitted to Castles. Justin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70021 Morning Star Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 John Hodge shows a picture of 7016 'Chester Castle' on page 59 of his book, The South Wales Main Line : Part One Cardiff. The caption reads, "As the Canton express engines, the ex-works Landor 'Castles' would immediately be rostered on the top turns to Paddington. No. 7016 Chester Castle had emerged from Swindon in October 1958 from Heavy General repair, and is seen in that month with the down 8.50 a.m. Paddington to Swansea 'South Wales Pullman' as it approached Canton. The train returned at 4.35 p.m. from Swansea, but was not a commercial success; ..." Unfortunately, no precise date, just August 1958 given. 7016 Chester Castle was "built August 1948. First and August 1950 shed allocations Cardiff Canton. March 1959 shed allocation Swansea Landore. Transferred from Cardiff Canton to Cardiff East Dock shed September 1962. Last shed allocation Cardiff East Dock. Withdrawn November 1962. Scrapped at Bird's, Bridgend." -- source, www.GreatWestern.org.uk I'm currently modelling 7016 Chester Castle with the South Wales Pullman, if anyone has further details (and pictures) of Chester Castle's history, especially on the Pullman service? I'm also looking for detailing parts: the copper safety-valve cover and brass chimney, if anyone knows a supplier? Thanks,Rick ______________PICTURE 7016 Chester Castle seen taking on water at Goring troughs (see the water spume under the tender) while working the 3.55 p.m. down Paddington-Neyland; being non-stop to Newport (other than the Duke of Bedford Beaufort* 'lasting covenant' requiring all trains to stop at Badminton). [*Thanks to Chrisf for spotting my slip.] Copyright permission by Wikipedia 'commons licence'. Photography by Ben Brooksbank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think you mean the Duke of Beaufort! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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