London Suburban idea

[Katier]

Came away from Warley with an n-gauge Standard Class 3 Tank..

 

Guess that means a layout needs planning.. found around 6ft I could plan for (yes that's 3 layouts on the go although I plan on getting the BLT to a pretty complete state ASAP )...

 

After chatting with a friend I've decided I want suburban as I prefer that generally to BLT. Concept is a bit inspired by Broad Street and also the Bury St plan in Railway Modeller.

 

I wanted to get away from the concept of a standard goods yard so (again inspired partially by RM) I've gone for a bottling plant and a parcels depot.

 

The thought is originally the station was a through station but something (route duplication? WWII damage? 1950's cut backs?) caused it to be changed to a terminus. It didn't get cut completely due to paddington unable to take the extra traffic but what remains is commuter traffic and maybe a small amount of longer distance stopping services. The line also serviced because of the Dairy and Parcels depot ( and possibly an off scene coal depot).

 

 

Thoughts?

[fender]

looks good. lots of operating potential.

 

which side would be the 'viewing' side? as if it's the bottom then doesn't the traverser get in the way of the dairy, visually? and if it's the top then how will you operate the traverser, and move the locos around?

[Flying Pig]

I think your story works fine apart from "due to Paddington unable to take the extra traffic" as your plan really has the feel of suburbia rather than inner London. However, given the complexity of routes in the capital, there's still potential for an interesting variety of passenger workings apart from your milk and parcels.

 

With this revised scenario in mind, I'd rework the plan to represent a former through station with a single island platform and goods loop:

 

- drop the disused platform

- drop the facing crossover on the main line

- perhaps rework the alignment to a more symmetrical slew of the former running lines

 

Is a clip-on sector plate for loco release a possibility? The point half way along the platform doesn't look quite right to me.

 

Finally, could you cope with a 2' traverser? As it is it does overwhelm the layout somewhat and actually I don't think the station will handle 2' 6" trains.

 

Edit: Uxbridge High St which came up recently on the split-level thread might be worth a look, though it's a bit more basic.

[Katier]

Shortening the traverser - yeah can do that, did wonder if I'd been a little too generous but better to start a little big then have to shrink. 2" still gives room for 300ft which should be enough for a 4 coach train. (and certainly a 4 car DMU - or two twos).

 

Why drop the facing, isn't that needed to get into the second platform?

 

Dropping the abandoned and making the current symmetrical makes sense - would the 'bay' likely be full size still?

 

Maybe a branch off the Paddington line somewhere between Northolt and Perivale, intended to join up with the Metropolitan at South Harrow? (been looking at the Clearing house map ) - would give me options for names such as Horsenden, Roxeth ( although if it got that far why didn't it join the line at SH?) or Whitton Avenue.

 

I'm not a london expert by any means though so open to further suggestions.

[Katier]

which side would be the 'viewing' side? as if it's the bottom then doesn't the traverser get in the way of the dairy, visually? and if it's the top then how will you operate the traverser, and move the locos around?

 

If would be from the traverser side. I should still be able to see the dairy no problems. Indeed putting something to hide a traverser isn't uncommon.

[Flying Pig]

Why drop the facing, isn't that needed to get into the second platform?

Yes it's needed to allow the second platform to handle arrivals, but it would be unlikely to appear in the original layout of a through station, so I thought it's absence might help the "truncated" vibe. Of course, it could have been added after truncation to streamline working.

[Katier]

Gotcha - I'll keep it in as if it was added later.. problem I do have is I can't practically make the platform symmetrical but I don't think that's too important - if the station was on a slight curve (which I can add in) then even without the cross-over the platform would be asymmetric - revised :-

 

 

Main benefit of the extra 5" length ( 1" having gone into the approach for the traverser) is the runaround point is further along and looks better. Also the parcels sidings are longer. In the final design I may make the dairy more 'branchlike' with a longer lead road so the length of the sidings don't change but they reach the end of the board.

[Katier]

OK it needs another point but would the run-round likely have a second headshunt at the parcels end - for example to store the milk brake coach/van in?

[Pacific231G]

OK it needs another point but would the run-round likely have a second headshunt at the parcels end - for example to store the milk brake coach/van in?

I'd say yes. The existing run-round without a head shunt looks a bit rural and looking at places like West Ealing milk depot I think every line ended up at a buffer.

This is a bit crude but I came up with this

 

 

 

I've just realised though that the concept of a double track GW line ending in a terminus with an island platform had a prototype in that part of West London with the GWR's Uxbridge Vine Street a two mile branch from W. Drayton. That was always a terminus so you wouldn't need the story of the truncated through station.

http://www.disused-s....1962)old12.jpg

http://www.disused-s...street_old1.jpg

 

Jon Dening built a really nice 0 gauge layout based on Uxbridge Vine Street though he moved his Vine Street to Gloucestershire and it seemed to have plenty of scope for interesting operation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiO9dKexPLA

 

You've got several other choices of location around that part of Middlesex. Greenford Station on the Paddington-Birmingham (now a Central Line station and the terminus of the Greenford Branch from W. Ealing) is a good mile from Greenford town centre so I could see either a twig off the Greenford branch near South Greenford or possibly a short branch from Hanwell. The GWR didn't usually mind its customers walking a mile to its stations so perhaps more credible would be a two mile or so branch to Harrow from Northolt or Greenford. That would be similar in length to the Uxbridge branch. I could also definitely believe in a GW invasion of Southern territory in the shape of a 3 mile branch to Hounslow from Southall with intermediate stations/halts at Norwood Green and Heston (or, depending on the route, possibly Heston Aerodrome now the Airlinks golf course) You've also of course got Vine Street itself and a quick Google yielded a signal box diagram and a 1945 aerial photo in Google Earth .

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I would drop the 'lack of capacity at Paddington' reason for the entirely realistic 'Paddington and other main line terminii in the "wrong" place'. Look at the Metropolitan and North London Railway projects (C19th Crossrail by any other name) and create the story around this kind of development of the network. Surface trains getting into the centre of the city to small staations and terminii, enabling direct connections from country locations to a near city office station. The truncation or whatever of an earlier through station easily explained post 1945 by the V2 that fell on the once large gasworks next door, or a major inner city rebuilding plan.

[colin penfold]

If you could come up with a way of operating the traverser from the other side (or if you intend it to be viewed from the dairy side anyway) you could make a 3D backscene on the traverser side, representing the rest of a larger station. Your layout would be "platform 12" and the dairy and parcels sidings at the extreme edge of a large terminus. You could have a plausible excuse for large tender engines that might lay over on platform 12 or use it as a double shunt to head to an off-scene loco shed.

[Katier]

It'll be built to be viewed dairy side - heck initially might not even have a backscene other than round the traverser.

[Katier]

So lets summarize locations.

 

1) Something crossrailish - developed in the 1890's-1900's, truncated in 1944 by a V2.. still running both because of location ( the afformentioned commuters) and Dairy/Parcels.. I know nothing about crossrail other than it exists and is a major new rail project so location thoughts would be needed.

 

2) Subpart of major terminus - partly as an excuse to run large locos. As it happens, don't need that excuse as Milk trains would be hauled by Castles, Halls and probably Hymeks due to their express nature.

 

3) Uxbridge Vine Street - might be fun doing a real terminus but does look to be 'typical' so would be standard goods + Parcels.

 

4) Hounslow - situated somewhere around Asda coming over the underground line between the two hounslow stations and being sited roughly where the asda car park is? Built to compete with the underground and intended to link to the LSWR line, it was never completed but the station was constructed as a through station.

 

5) Harrow - branching off from around Northholt.

 

There 5 reactions to the feedback. Thoughts?

[Pacific231G]

So lets summarize locations.

 

1) Something crossrailish - developed in the 1890's-1900's, truncated in 1944 by a V2.. still running both because of location ( the afformentioned commuters) and Dairy/Parcels.. I know nothing about crossrail other than it exists and is a major new rail project so location thoughts would be needed.

 

If a crossrail type line had been built through Central London (I can hear the howls of protest already cut and cover was very disruptive)) It would have become so vital that I doubt a V2 would have stopped it for long. The Metropolitan did fulfil that purpose to an extent by connecting Paddington with the City. Thinking about the Hammersmith and City. If that had been and remained a GW line rather than becoming part of the Underground you'd have a small terminus at Hammersmith but pretty intensively operated.

 

2) Subpart of major terminus - partly as an excuse to run large locos. As it happens, don't need that excuse as Milk trains would be hauled by Castles, Halls and probably Hymeks due to their express nature.

 

3) Uxbridge Vine Street - might be fun doing a real terminus but does look to be 'typical' so would be standard goods + Parcels.

Worth taking a look at but then transposing to a different location so you don't have to follow Uxbridge slavishly.

 

4) Hounslow - situated somewhere around Asda coming over the underground line between the two hounslow stations and being sited roughly where the asda car park is? Built to compete with the underground and intended to link to the LSWR line, it was never completed but the station was constructed as a through station.

 

Probably not built to compete with the Underground- that would have arrived much later- also probably not originally designed to link with the LSWR- they were bitter rivals- though a link might have come later. Staines, and Brentford are maybe the model for this. You can design it as a through station but your plan is quite similar to Vine St. and that was designed as a terminus. The Island platform does suggest buildings at the end (which need only be low relief) rather than to the side as in a through station.

5) Harrow - branching off from around Northholt.

 

There were several large food operations in that area. Greenford for example had the J Lyons factory "where perfect food products are made by happy workpeople in healthy rural surroundings" which was large enough to have an internal railway but it included an ice cream factory so something like that needing loads of milk or simply a milk platform like the one at W. Ealing would be possible. The goods and the inevitable coal yards couid be a bit further up the line but the terminus would probably handle parcels.

[maunsel]

Don't forget the Clapham Junction to Kensington Olympia line for some West London atmosphere, let alone all those Acton stations, including the small District & Metropolitan terminus.

 

Eric

[Fenway Park]

Don't forget the Clapham Junction to Kensington Olympia line for some West London atmosphere, let alone all those Acton stations, including the small District & Metropolitan terminus.

 

Eric

The BR Standard 3 tanks were used on the Kenny Belle services along with Standard 4 tanks and the occasional Ivatt 2MT 2-6-2 tanks. All these are available in N Gauge.

In addition the 3MT s could be found on local freight turns including Raynes Park and other suburban stations.

What is now the District Line from Richmond was originally LSWR to Shepherds Bush and Olympia or Addison Road as it was known in the old days.

Midland 0-6-0 tanks and Jinties ran coal trains to West Kensington and High Street Kensington coal yards. So there is plenty of scope.

Hope this helps.

 

Malcolm

[Katier]

Thanks both - I'll bear the advice in mind and do a bit of research

[Metr0Land]

Hammersmith and Chiswick station lost its passenger services in 1917 but struggled on with goods until 1965? If you can get a suitable endorsement on your Modellers Licence, am sure you could build a story around this. It allows for Paddington overflow (if you can imagine a sutiable chord nearby) and has some good links to other transport with buses (and trolleybuses until 1962) outside, and with tube stations not far away.

[colin penfold]

May 2012 Railway Modeller had an article on Kensington Sidings that may provide some ideas and inspiration.

[Katier]

Made a bit of progress with the baseboards which are slightly wider than the plan. I also have a potential tweak to do as I was given a N-gauge Mill Lane Sidings crane

 

 

for Yule (excuse to open the presents I had at home a little early to save 'shipping' them to parents and back) which I ought to include.

 

The layout itself looks like this 

 

 

So fits the boards just fine. The line to the dairy will curve wider to the right, to give more room for the scenic break to the fiddle area. Likewise the (current) parcels sidings can extend out a bit to make them longer and improve access to each siding.

 

Not sure of the best way to do the 'traverser'.. a traverser is more complex and I'd like to keep the baseboards all level.. a sector table I know is easy to create but has the negative of needing one of the approach roads ( in a double track configuration ) slightly curved.

 

Thoughts?

 

Exact location has still not been decided.. partially because I got too many choices.. but the solution to using the crane (if possible) may solve the problem of location.

 

I don't mind making it a terminus, indeed one of my favourite (all be it NER) stations is Withernsea which was of comparable configuration.  I haven't added a parallel track at the end of the run-around yet but am happy to if that would be most correct.

[Xerces Fobe2]

My advice determine what trains you wish to run and then find a station that saw at least some of them biu do not to hung up wiith having locos and stock that might be slightly out palce - diversions and "what is" add more interest.

On my Croxley WRD I have stock that visits which would not have visited the Croxley Green LMR branch. IMO this all adds fun and making a up plausible reason for it being there can be an intersting exercise .One of my examples is my L11 Acton Works shunter - the reason is that it as arrived ahead of a depot Open Day!

 

I look forward to following your progress with this layout.

 

XF

[Katier]

I'm thinking I might either save the crane for 3mm/ft (which it should be fine for as these cranes do vary in scale) or use it scenically on this layout as part of an industrial works that isn't rail connected.

 

Make sense?

[Katier]

Been steadily building up points and track work. Still a few pieces left but doing a quick clearance check. While the layout was designed in templot, the actual track will all be RTR so some tweaking will be needed. First tweak being a 3 way at the station approach which gives more room. The photo below shows what amounts to a worse case. The 3 coaches just fitting into the platform while giving room for a diesel to run round ( represented by the DMU ) and enough room at the runaround for a tender loco ( that's a 3MT tank ).

 

 

Worst case is that the approach is a pair of large points this second photo is adjusted as if the approach is medium points- definite better clearance.

 

[Katier]

Couple more - playing with some buildings I was kindly given yesterday, I think the final station position will move to the right but gives an idea of space. The platforms in the foreground are representing the dairy while the parcels depot is off to the top left. 

 

The Liddle End factory will also use the afformentioned crane and be something that used to be rail connected but is no longer.

 

 

[Karhedron]

Liking the look of this one.

 

Have you decided how to arrange the scenic break for the fiddle yard? Is the tunnel mouth going to stay or will you simply rely on the dairy to hide what is going on behind?