RTR 4mm Iron Ore train help

[Adam]

Thanks Arthur, somewhere between the refinery and Hythe was what I suspected: it's about the only place there'd have been the space - very clear from the top of the IKEA car park - that side and post war development on the other was probably already too extensive even without taking things like Hamble or the remains of Netley Abbey or the naval hospital into account.

 

While I'm very glad it didn't happen (but not, I reckon, as glad as the residents of Hythe), there's a 'what if' layout idea just there and all sorts of interesting traffic in the wider Southampton area.

 

Adam

[6959]

An up to date link to Midlands iron ore page.

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/226-ardley-greaves-siding-limestone-traffic

[doctor quinn]

Iron ore trains in the East Midlands seem to have used tipplers

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/davidwf2009/18739118383/in/favorites-nicks_trainstuff/

 

I suspect it depended on the unloading equipment at the destination

 

Nick

[Arthur]

 

Yes, the destination works clearly had to be able to unload the wagons used though plants with tipplers could, and some did, accept hopper wagons and run them through the tippler.

 

I've mentioned this before; post WW2 there was a trend to using tipplers for domestic ores, those quarried in the UK, because they were often clay like, wet and sticky, and sometimes loaded in large lumps, all qualities which could lead to them sticking in hoppers. Tipplers gave a much 'cleaner' unload. Imported ores were usually crushed and dried and so were much freer running.

 

Many works in this period were undergoing extensive redevelopment and adding a tippler or two was a relatively small investment. The works at Irlam, for example, had three tipplers, one each for ore, coal and limestone.

[Fat Controller]

It would be interesting to see what stock was used for the small proportion of deep-mined iron ore; the haematite that was produced at Llanharan in South Wales, and around Cleator Moor in Cumbria. Was this sufficently crushed to make handling in hoppers feasible? It certainly wouldn't be clarty, like the opencast ores of the East Midlands.

[t-b-g]

There was a comprehensive series of articles by Geoff Kent covering iron ore wagons. It appeared in MRJ over several issues in recent years. There were many prototype photos and details of how to model many variations of iron ore wagons. They would be worth looking up for anybody interested in such traffic.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The relatively small cubic capacity hoppers rated for 22 - 25T ladings (In the BR period their designs 1/160, 1/161, 1/162) are what is typical for handling a high iron content ore like haematite. Crushing and sorting plant to aid handling and eliminate as much non/low-iron content rock was normal by this period, going by titles such as 'beneficiation..

[Arthur]

I'd agree, hoppers were more likely to be used for the haematite ores as they were much drier, they did not have the wet, sticky nature of many of the Northants ores. I've seen images showing hoppers on hi-lines at both Workington and Millom and neither, as far as I am aware, had ore tipplers.

 

In this country, the 'benefication' processes, certainly the more modern methods, were more usually carried out at the works rather than the quarries. Calcining, burning off impurities in heaps (clamps) or in calcining kilns was carried out at some of the quarries and was a relatively simple process. Mechanical improvement was done at some of the loading plants but many works were receiving ores straight from the face shovels in the quarries and crushing, grading and drying them on arrival.

 

The much more involved sintering process, roasting the ore with coke breeze (readily available where there were coke ovens) in large and costly sinter plants to produce an iron rich clinker, was largely done at the steelworks. There was a sintering plant at Irthlingborough, owned by RTB, which is why Ebbw Vale didn't have a sintering plant. I cannot recall any other sinter plant in the ore fields whereas, by the mid 1950's almost all integrated works had their own sinter plants.

 

One advantage of benefication at the ore field is that you remove much of the dross before you, expensively, transport it. This was a much greater advantage when the distance to the works was considerable which is why it was much more common in the U.S. to treat ore at the point of extraction.

 

Edit; link to one of the images in my gallery showing Port Talbot's sinter plant.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/9218-ore-prepartion-sinter-plant/

[6959]

Yes, the destination works clearly had to be able to unload the wagons used though plants with tipplers could, and some did, accept hopper wagons and run them through the tippler.

 

I've mentioned this before; post WW2 there was a trend to using tipplers for domestic ores, those quarried in the UK, because they were often clay like, wet and sticky, and sometimes loaded in large lumps, all qualities which could lead to them sticking in hoppers. Tipplers gave a much 'cleaner' unload. Imported ores were usually crushed and dried and so were much freer running.

 

Many works in this period were undergoing extensive redevelopment and adding a tippler or two was a relatively small investment. The works at Irlam, for example, had three tipplers, one each for ore, coal and limestone.

 

I found the third paragraph most interesting regarding damp or dry loads favouring the choice of wagon to be used to convey iron ore.

 

A short train of each wagon type, hopper or mineral, could be the best of both worlds in model formations that fit into small layouts without obvious tail chasing.

 

As an aside, in coal fired power stations where the coal bunkers and pipes to the chain grate or pulversised fuel mill are like a railway hopper wagon but on a giant scale, even dry coal tended to clog in the vertical pipes. Scientific services spent many hours trying to resolve coal clogging in gravity feed large diameter pipes without any great success. A six foot long scaffold pole was standard equipment to bang the sides of down pipes to clear blockages. The problem areas were obvious by the number of dents in the tubes after stokers had relieved their stress in a violent way.

[Arthur]

 

Interesting 6959.

The same was true of unloading the ore hoppers when they stuck, men inside with heavy bars trying to break up the blockages. Costly and heavy labour which the hoppers were mean't to overcome.

 

Freezing weather could freeze the load and at some of the U.S. works, where the winter weather was extreme, there were steam heated 'tunnels' over the unloading bunkers to warm up the hoppers.

 

I should stress the move to tipplers was a trend, there were still thousands of hoppers in use.

 

The new import streams, Tyne Dock-Consett, Bidston-Shotton and Clyde Dock-Clyde Iron/Ravenscraig all used hoppers because the ores were dry and free running.

[jimwal]

The LMS had 400 mineral wagons suitable for Iron ore with 27ton payload, diag book page 70. The diagram shows they had side, top flap and bottom doors, so they could be in the rake, as the wagons all look like they are similarly loaded.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

'An Illustrated History Of LMS wagons' volume one, appears to show D2153 27 ton mineral wagon as 21'6" over headstocks, sides 2' high and a sheet bar. Also noted is Diagram Book page 70, D2154, carrying capacity 20 tons, 20 ton GWR brake.

 

There seems some errors here, does anyone know further?

 

Regards, Jim

[Fat Controller]

'An Illustrated History Of LMS wagons' volume one, appears to show D2153 27 ton mineral wagon as 21'6" over headstocks, sides 2' high and a sheet bar. Also noted is Diagram Book page 70, D2154, carrying capacity 20 tons, 20 ton GWR brake.

 

There seems some errors here, does anyone know further?

 

Regards, Jim

The Iron Ore wagons to which Paul refers looked like the standard 16t mineral. They would have had stronger springs, larger axle journals, and possibly thicker steel for the bodywork. Here's a photo from the man himself's site:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsmineral/h5254eb6e#h5254eb6e

I'm not sure what the two wagons you refer to are; the first sounds almost like a Pig-Iron wagon, though the sheet-rail is a bit odd. No idea on the second; possibly a Loco Coal?

There was mention in another post of the problems of dislodging 'stuck' loads; the LNER/ BR 21t hopper had lozenge-shaped pieces of steel fixed to the sides in various places for hammer-wielding staff to hit when the going got sticky.

[jonny777]

The Iron Ore wagons to which Paul refers looked like the standard 16t mineral. They would have had stronger springs, larger axle journals, and possibly thicker steel for the bodywork. Here's a photo from the man himself's site:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsmineral/h5254eb6e#h5254eb6e

 

That photo may have solved a mystery which has intrigued me for over half a century. I saw many Highdyke - Frodingham iron ore trains in the 1960s and occasionally they did include one or two wagons which looked like 16t coal ones; and I often wondered how they coped with 11t more than they were designed for. More than likely they were these strengthened vehicles, but I failed to notice the lettering or they were so filthy that it was unreadable.

[hmrspaul]

Posted Today, 10:02

jimwal, on 25 Oct 2015 - 00:14, said:

    'An Illustrated History Of LMS wagons' volume one, appears to show D2153 27 ton mineral wagon as 21'6" over headstocks, sides 2' high and a sheet bar. Also noted is Diagram Book page 70, D2154, carrying capacity 20 tons, 20 ton GWR brake.
    
    There seems some errors here, does anyone know further?
    
    Regards, Jim

The Iron Ore wagons to which Paul refers looked like the standard 16t mineral. They would have had stronger springs, larger axle journals, and possibly thicker steel for the bodywork. Here's a photo from the man himself's site:-
http://paulbartlett....4eb6e#h5254eb6e
I'm not sure what the two wagons you refer to are; the first sounds almost like a Pig-Iron wagon, though the sheet-rail is a bit odd. No idea on the second; possibly a Loco Coal?
There was mention in another post of the problems of dislodging 'stuck' loads; the LNER/ BR 21t hopper had lozenge-shaped pieces of steel fixed to the sides in various places for hammer-wielding staff to hit when the going got sticky.

 

What it is, is that the captions of the two diagrams are swopped over, there were 400 of the IO Minerals and 10 of the long Trinidad ones.

 

There is another photo showing part of a grey mineral with plain bearings written ORE TIPPLER on page 29 of Steam World Sept. 1994. Anyone interested in this topic should see all pages 27 - 29.

 

Sometime around 1966-67 I noted during some trip out M622123 Mineral 27T Roll bear side doors

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

'Trinidad' were a road surfacing contractor, I believe, their full name being something like 'The Trinidad Lake Asphalt Company' . There used to be a Hornby 0-gauge model of one of their wagons, but I doubt it bore much resemblance to the real thing.

[jimwal]

Yes, I agree Brian and with Paul with all you've both said regarding these wagons. It was whilst looking for more info, especially pictures showing running gear I came across what I posted in '36' which supposedly all refers to one wagon!. Perhaps Bob Essery the Book's author can enlighten.

 

Anyway I think we should model what we see or is pictured, backed up with drawings, descriptions, diagrams etc not the other way round. Even though research sometimes throws up anomalies. I will have to do more trawling with magnifying glass of photos.

 

Regards, Jim

[hmrspaul]

Nice mixed IO hopper train here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/130150336@N07/16645853507/in/photostream/

 

paul

[6959]

Given that there are various types of iron ore with hoppers favouring dry ore and tippler mineral wagons best suited to wet ores, it would be wise to model the correct coloured ore load.

 

Model wagons have ore loads ranging from yellow to red so, What is the correct colour for each type of iron ore?

[Mark Saunders]

Given that there are various types of iron ore with hoppers favouring dry ore and tippler mineral wagons best suited to wet ores, it would be wise to model the correct coloured ore load.

 

Model wagons have ore loads ranging from yellow to red so, What is the correct colour for each type of iron ore?

 

It all depends on where it was dug up from as the colour varied rom location to location!

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

Given that there are various types of iron ore with hoppers favouring dry ore and tippler mineral wagons best suited to wet ores, it would be wise to model the correct coloured ore load.

 

Model wagons have ore loads ranging from yellow to red so, What is the correct colour for each type of iron ore?

Most of the Jurassic ores found in Oxfordshire, Northamptonshire and Lincolnshire are a yellowy-brown colour. The imported ores tend to be much darker, with a mixture of greys and dark brown. Here's a link to a view of the ore stacks at TATA's Port Talbot plant:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Port+Talbot,+Neath+Port+Talbot/@51.5764609,-3.790529,583m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x486e417d526519d3:0x988defbf4b68103f!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Bear in mind that the imported ores have a much higher iron content, and are thus much denser. Whilst a load of domestic ore, especially if loaded at the quarry face, would be visible from outside the wagon, an equivalent imported load would look as though the wagon hadn't been emptied properly. Have a look at Geoff Kent's book on modelling open and mneral wagons to see what I mean.

[Arthur]

 

Having raised the issue I wouldn't you get too hung up on the dry vs wet/hopper vs tippler thing unless you are modelling a specific, prototype, traffic. It was a trend and discussed in some of the trade magazines of the day. There were plenty of wet ores in plenty of hoppers. Had domestic ore mining carried on for longer than it did I suspect the trend would have become more marked.

 

So, unless modelling something specific, just run the type of wagon you like.

 

As for colour, other than saying that the haematite ores were dry and tended to the red/brown colour I'm not sure you can otherwise say. Ores range from near black, through purple, reds, browns and onto mustard and yellow. As has been said, it depends on where they are from, the type of iron content and what other materials they carry.