Hornby Star Class

[Oldddudders]

I've mentioned it before but:

 

Doesn't anybody else think that Hornby, not having any manufacturing capacity of their own are inevitably going to be more expensive than Bachmann, which is a wholly owned subsidary of the company that actually makes their products?

 

It seems inevitable to me that the added costs of a in house company can be kept lower than a third party manufacturer (or two or three).

 

Logically you are right. It's analogous to the railways in the UK. Where BR was one company, the multiple commercial companies now involved in the industry each need to make a profit on everything they do, so total costs of doing anything have risen. That said, do the various parts of Bachmann and their Chinese owners make separate profits? I suspect they do, so the situation may not be quite so different.

[Bernard Lamb]

I've mentioned it before but:

 

Doesn't anybody else think that Hornby, not having any manufacturing capacity of their own are inevitably going to be more expensive than Bachmann, which is a wholly owned subsidary of the company that actually makes their products?

 

It seems inevitable to me that the added costs of a in house company can be kept lower than a third party manufacturer (or two or three).

 

Keith

I would suggest that it might have more to do with how many people each employ in the UK.

Bernard

[Coach bogie]

Feel free to shew us them then Mike even though it's a star thread.Its still another Churchward 4-6-0.

 Here they are. Not the best pictures due to lack of daylight hours at home before and after work..

 

2900 William Dean in final condition before scrapping

 

2905 Lady MacBeth lever reverser, tall safety valve cover but after new front end fitted

 

2912 Saint Ambrose as running with the Ex Great Bear tender in the early 1930's

 

2935 Caynham Court as rebuilt with first version poppet/Caprotti style valve gear in the 1930's

 

2981 Ivanhoe lever reverser, intermediate tender based on image with my Grandfather driving

 

2987 Bride of Lammermoor lever reverser

 

And finally ex 2925

4900 Saint Martin as originally rebuilt to Hall class without steam pipes and non standard lower pitch boiler.

 

As said previously, I still have the pure straight versions to go with two variations planned.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[coachmann]

Nice variety there. New front end with straight footplate gets my vote. Looks a lot more purposeful than the cab with false lower side sheets.

[Ozexpatriate]

Doesn't anybody else think that Hornby, not having any manufacturing capacity of their own are inevitably going to be more expensive than Bachmann, which is a wholly owned subsidary of the company that actually makes their products?

 

It seems inevitable to me that the added costs of a in house company can be kept lower than a third party manufacturer (or two or three).

Not necessarily.

 

Logically you are right. It's analogous to the railways in the UK. Where BR was one company, the multiple commercial companies now involved in the industry each need to make a profit on everything they do, so total costs of doing anything have risen. That said, do the various parts of Bachmann and their Chinese owners make separate profits? I suspect they do, so the situation may not be quite so different.

For anyone who is interested you can find Kader Holdings financial statements here. (Conveniently they are available in English.)

 

For what it is worth, their most recent statements sound very similar to pronouncements by Hornby - detailing declines in model railway sales with increases in Chinese labour and material costs. Bachmann/Kader face very similar challenges as do Hornby and vertical integration in their operations doesn't save them much. They still have all the revenue in GBP versus wages/costs in $HK or Yuan issues to deal with.

 

Hornby has largely weaned themselves from Kader manufacturing services and it has been a very painful process for them. Kader is not enjoying a very good first half and based on their first-half numbers are hoping for a Christmas miracle. (Now where have I heard that before?)

 

Kader made this statement after the first half of 2013:

The global economy continues to be affected by the unsolved European sovereign debt crisis and the uncertainty in the economy in United States market. Also, in view of the shortage of labour and the increase in statutory minimum wages in Mainland China, the Group will be full of challenge for the toys and model trains business in the second half of the year.

I'm anticipating an interim statement by Hornby any day now. Last year they released their interim statement on November 9.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[dymstocklr]

Thanks for all the above,gentlemen.I have put my readies upfront for Lode Star,despite my reservations (at least in my case,anyway ) about the lack of etched plates....sacrilege!.....and am eagerly awaiting Glastonbury Abbey,within (hopefully) the next millennium.The order to Jackson Evans for two sets of the above was placed yesterday.

What does that tell you ? Really about a dinosaur who ,as an eight year old,stood at the end of Swansea High Street....Dylan Thomas' 'Ugly,lovely town'...watching the declining years of Stars and Saints,not then in gleaming,copper-capped glory,but in post-war grime.If you want to know more,then treat yourself to a copy of 'The Red Dragon...and other old friends.A glimpse of post war steam in and around Swansea '. LDR Publications. Out of print now,but copies will be available somewhere.

As an aside,it will also tell you why you could always tell it was a Landore Castle at the front end of Paddington bound trains.

 

They had silver buffers. Not that we saw many in S Devon!

Bill

 

Bill

[OFFTHE RAILS]

Not necessarily.

 

For anyone who is interested you can find Kader Holdings financial statements here. (Conveniently they are available in English.)

 

For what it is worth, their most recent statements sound very similar to pronouncements by Hornby - detailing declines in model railway sales with increases in Chinese labour and material costs. Bachmann/Kader face very similar challenges as do Hornby and vertical integration in their operations doesn't save them much. They still have all the revenue in GBP versus wages/costs in $HK or Yuan issues to deal with.

 

Hornby has largely weaned themselves from Kader manufacturing services and it has been a very painful process for them. Kader is not enjoying a very good first half and based on their first-half numbers are hoping for a Christmas miracle. (Now where have I heard that before?)

 

Kader made this statement after the first half of 2013:

 

I'm anticipating an interim statement by Hornby any day now. Last year they released their interim statement on November 9.

ft.com has :

 

Consensus recommendation

As of Nov 09, 2013, the investment analyst covering Hornby Plc advises investors to hold their position in the company. This has been the consensus forecast since the sentiment of investment analysts deteriorated on Sep 25, 2012. The previous consensus forecast advised that Hornby Plc would outperform the market.

[OFFTHE RAILS]

Not necessarily.

 

For anyone who is interested you can find Kader Holdings financial statements here. (Conveniently they are available in English.)

 

For what it is worth, their most recent statements sound very similar to pronouncements by Hornby - detailing declines in model railway sales with increases in Chinese labour and material costs. Bachmann/Kader face very similar challenges as do Hornby and vertical integration in their operations doesn't save them much. They still have all the revenue in GBP versus wages/costs in $HK or Yuan issues to deal with.

 

Hornby has largely weaned themselves from Kader manufacturing services and it has been a very painful process for them. Kader is not enjoying a very good first half and based on their first-half numbers are hoping for a Christmas miracle. (Now where have I heard that before?)

 

Kader made this statement after the first half of 2013:

 

I'm anticipating an interim statement by Hornby any day now. Last year they released their interim statement on November 9.

Further info from Stockopedia.com :

Upcoming HRN Events

Monday 18th November, 2013 (estimate)

Interim 2013 Hornby PLC Earnings Release

[The Stationmaster]

I've mentioned it before but:

 

Doesn't anybody else think that Hornby, not having any manufacturing capacity of their own are inevitably going to be more expensive than Bachmann, which is a wholly owned subsidary of the company that actually makes their products?

 

It seems inevitable to me that the added costs of a in house company can be kept lower than a third party manufacturer (or two or three).

 

Keith

As I understand from what Bachmann people have said they are in effect a customer of Kader's manufacturing arm in just the same way as any other customer buys from that part of the company.  Now clearly Kader can move around to different levels the way in which it takes profit but that would not necessarily affect the retail price at the end of the chain.

 

Some Bachmann locos are now up to the c.£150 RRP level which hardly suggests to me that they are selling things cheaply although simpler locos such as six coupled designs with no connecting rods or outside cylinders are much cheaper.  I suspect that Bernard Lamb might have come pretty close to part of the reason for price differences and stock market presence in the UK might also explain some of it.  In year ended April 2013 Hornby Group paid out £764,000 in director's fees and emoluments alone which was equal to around 3% of gross profit (£24,478,00) at a rough estimate - Kader might well be paying similar sums but it is spread over a much larger business base.  And Hornby Group's administration expenses in total were £9,415,000 - i.e well over 30% of the gross profit figure.

 

Comparing Hornby and Bachmann costs in relation to RRP pricing levels is probably bit like comparing apples with pears once you consider the overall financial shape of the two organisations.

Edited November 13, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Ozexpatriate]

Upcoming HRN Events

Monday 18th November, 2013 (estimate)

Interim 2013 Hornby PLC Earnings Release

With the extensive delays to their 2013 program, I'm not expecting happy news from Hornby. It is going to be very rough sledding for them until they can get their goods into shops. Hopefully things will then start to improve.

[Ian Hargrave]

They had silver buffers. Not that we saw many in S Devon!

Bill

 

Bill

Correct...as a result of the influence of Shedmaster Roy White.His Castles rarely strayed from the South Wales main line.An unsung hero who raised morale and performance to legendary status.Strangely,he was English,from the Forest of Dean.

[The Stationmaster]

Correct...as a result of the influence of Shedmaster Roy White.His Castles rarely strayed from the South Wales main line.An unsung hero who raised morale and performance to legendary status.Strangely,he was English,from the Forest of Dean.

 

He was also at one time, albeit for a very brief period, my boss (er, 40 years ago), great bloke.

 

With the extensive delays to their 2013 program, I'm not expecting happy news from Hornby. It is going to be very rough sledding for them until they can get their goods into shops. Hopefully things will then start to improve.

 

But at least the share price is holding steady which suggest all might not be gloom over their full product range although I'm beginning to wonder if we might be seeing some very substantial changes in their approach to 'model railways' before too long simply in order to regain some sort of position in peoples' minds and attitudes rather than being forever the subject of not so good news, for whatever reasons, among the modelling fraternity.

[Ian Hargrave]

Etched plates for 4003 & 4061 just arrived from Jackson Evans.....that was quick ! Now all I want is ......no,don't go there......

[The Stationmaster]

Etched plates for 4003 & 4061 just arrived from Jackson Evans.....that was quick ! Now all I want is ......no,don't go there......

I'm not - 4003 is my 'help for Steam' collectable (what an admission) so needs nowt but new bogie wheels when perambulating on 'enthusiast specials'.  

 

4061 is pre-order now arranged to be held until I've had a good look to see how much of it needs to be sorted (bogie wheels apart) as it's on the edge of my period of modelling interest and would only be  a 'nice to have' as opposed to an 'essential for time & place' - as long as that doesn't mean having to rebuild a very conspicuous part of the tender and sort out - somehow - the equally conspicuous housing over the reversing rod where it emerges from the cab (I am assuming that the oil pipe covers at the back end of the smokebox will be correct).

[bobwyer]

If the reversing rod housing is the same as Tintagel then it, if present can be easily removed or if not then one from Tintagel or similar can be fitted, either way a winner!!1

[Ozexpatriate]

But at least the share price is holding steady ...

Other than 'normal' market fluctuations it should. It usually only changes in the wake of company communications to the financial community. We'll see what next week brings.

 

EDIT: Or sooner, I guess having now seen the other thread!

 

I'm beginning to wonder if we might be seeing some very substantial changes in their approach to 'model railways' before too long simply in order to regain some sort of position in peoples' minds and attitudes.

That sounds hopeful. They do need to sort several things out. I wish them well.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[The Stationmaster]

If the reversing rod housing is the same as Tintagel then it, if present can be easily removed or if not then one from Tintagel or similar can be fitted, either way a winner!!1

 

So all I have to do is take a part of another loco to make this one right and that one wrong - doesn't sound like much of a winner to me (unless you can get the part as a spare.

[gwrrob]

I know a lot of you are waiting for 4061 to shew it's head above the parapet.An interesting ebay photo of her in 1955 on a SLS trip sporting a front bufferbeam number no less. The seller is confused as it's described as a Castle class.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ex-GWR-Castle-Class-No-4061-Gladstonbury-Abbey-Swindon-Works-SLS-Special-/370943035388?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item565ded87fc

[The Stationmaster]

I know a lot of you are waiting for 4061 to shew it's head above the parapet.An interesting ebay photo of her in 1955 on a SLS trip sporting a front bufferbeam number no less. The seller is confused as it's described as a Castle class.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ex-GWR-Castle-Class-No-4061-Gladstonbury-Abbey-Swindon-Works-SLS-Special-/370943035388?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item565ded87fc

 

Both 4061 and 4056 acquired painted numbers on the bufferbeam in connection with special train workings.  There is one photo about which shows a much grubbier 4061 still with the bufferbeam number but also with the cast smokebox numberplate back in position.

[robmcg]

I am all a-tither with expectation for 4061.

 

A couple of Hawksworths in red-cream, and it's 1951 again.... or maybe in maroon, and some sellers have offered sets of these coaches I think at very good prices, but alas they rarely formed sets in everyday use, so far as I know...

 

In any event, it makes a nice Hornby train, as so any of several Southern region engines and Maunsells, or Midland with Staniers, or Eastern with Gresleys....

 

Looks like they've done everything serious now so they can go back to the toy market....

[iL Dottore]

....Looks like they've done everything serious now so they can go back to the toy market....

Hardly, we still need a decent replacement for the ageing 14XX and whilst the Hawksworths are fine coach models, they are not what I would think of when I think of GWR coaching stock. Hornby (or someone else) should some decent Toplights. Very GWR and they lasted well into BR days

[County of Yorkshire]

Hardly, we still need a decent replacement for the ageing 14XX and whilst the Hawksworths are fine coach models, they are not what I would think of when I think of GWR coaching stock. Hornby (or someone else) should some decent Toplights. Very GWR and they lasted well into BR days

 

Not to mention a re-tooled King, Large Prairie, Dean Goods and Toad breakvan... 

[robmcg]

Not to mention a re-tooled King, Large Prairie, Dean Goods and Toad breakvan...

Sheers toys, I tell you. Nobody takes the GWR seriously anymore.

 

 

..or is that the North Eastern... ?

[Ian Hargrave]

Any coaching stock in crimson &cream...including Bachmann Mark ones...will do,Rob.

Try a Portsmouth-Cardiff train with SR Mark ones...crimson &cream,of course...or,as we used to say 'plum and spilt milk'...true!

[coachmann]

Any coaching stock in crimson &cream...including Bachmann Mark ones...will do,Rob.

Try a Portsmouth-Cardiff train with SR Mark ones...crimson &cream,of course...or,as we used to say 'plum and spilt milk'...true!

I wondered why you used to say Plum & splilt milk?  It was only used on experimental rakes of coaches before the adoption of the standard blood & custard.

 

 

I am all a-tither with expectation for 4061.

 

A couple of Hawksworths in red-cream, and it's 1951 again.... or maybe in maroon, and some sellers have offered sets of these coaches I think at very good prices, but alas they rarely formed sets in everyday use, so far as I know...

 

Rob, only 4061 and 4062 are likely to have hauled BR maroon stock, being withdrawn in 1957 and 1956.

 

EDIT : Missed out 4056 withdrawn 1957

Edited November 15, 2013 by coachmann