Hornby Star Class

[OnTheBranchline]

Yes, a tad over sensitive I believe, although I couldn't agree more about what you get for £108.00 when £115.00-£120.00 gets a Star kit, then add on another £100+ for wheels, motor, gearbox, etc., plus the time to build it. However, coming up with a "generic" model when photographic evidence of what is required is available is to my mind not acceptable. Part of the issue is that Hornby are still leveraging old tools/old parts/old technology into new models, viz. the use of Castle cylinders (and probably the chassis), molded hand rails and that back-to-back of 14.2mm (which has been around since the Saints and ringfield drive tenders). I was simply pointing out that if you are interested in details (which I am, not everybody else is, no criticism from me) then this model will require some work,especially if another Star or a back-dated model is required. From what I can see no 2 were identical. Getting one detail wrong is excusable, getting a list of them wrong is another matter (that sounds familiar). This post was made because earlier on a lot of others had indicated renaming would be high on the list of priorities. Whether the differences between the class members is modelled or it's simply a name and number swap is up to the individual (steam pipes or not, inside or outside elbow steam pipes, no steam pipes, Castle cylinders or not, rectangular or oval blanking plates, etc.). 

 

I already have a Star - 4032, Queen Alexandra, although it's after the rebuild into a Castle class in 1926. What did it take - a set of nameplates and numbers and a Hornby Castle. Does it look the part? Yes. is it correct? No, because the Castle is not correct. But it is without doubt the easiest conversion I've done, and one of the cheapest (£65.00 total). Back-dating would be easy - change the cab (cut and shut or a Saint body donor for the cab would do it) and remove or change the steam pipes. BTW, I'm not convinced that the majority of modellers want model trains manufactured for £30-40.00 ex-factory (think 1/3rds) if they're only representative, although I could be wrong. I don't expect tooling to cater to every variant, but if it purports to be 4018 in the 1930's shouldn't it at least look like it?  I moved from OO to EM some years ago for exactly the reasons you listed. The Devil is in the detail.

 

 

BCDR

 

So in your question in short form is, what's the point of making a specific named model if the model does not look like the prototype?

Edited December 22, 2013 by OnTheBranchline

[Coach bogie]

Not often I contribute, but I was looking at a review of the Hornby Star in Model Rail, went and looked at a few books, and noted the following:

 

 

I am not sure whether this is a breakdown of an individual engines idiosyncrasies or a moan at Hornby. If it is the former then many thanks for the useful comments. As has been shown with posts from the last twelve months, there appear to be no two engines the same.

 

If it is a moan than I can add very little to what Robmcg has stated. It looks like a Star, has the feel of a Star, for the approx. £100 outlay, is the bargain of the century compared to what my kit builds cost in parts alone, and for very little extra investment, I can personalise it to a specific engine. Is it correct? Of course it isn't. It is an elaborate toy. For starters, it is narrow gauge compared to S4! An evening’s work updated my two Hornby Star’s to individual engines not named by Hornby. This is a serious alternative being provided by Hornby and personally, I am very grateful. I can buy 2.5 Hornby Stars for one Mitchell and parts to complete and as for built time….

 

Back dating a Castle to a Star is a lot more work than challenging than changing the cab and boiler. Trust me, I have done so with a Castle kit and the cab and front ends alone took longer than I would normally spend building an entire body.

 

The rebuilds are just as interesting to tackle. I built 111 and 4016 from a Castle kit and I had quite a list of detail differences from ‘standard’ Castles and things were moved over time such as sand boxes behind/in front of cab steps etc.

 

Hats off to Hornby. I would rather spend my rare week off at Christmas running Knight Templar and Queen Berengaria than building them. As I have plates for Knight Commander, Peter’s Spare’s may have another sale, when stock arrives in the New Year. I will still build my remaining unbuilt Mitchell star, but in the meantime, I can just go to the train room and run something that looks like a Star hauling an eight coach express of GWR stock with no two vehicle the same. When I step back and look at the entire train, individual inaccuracies are furthest from my mind.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[NigelP]

I am not sure whether this is a breakdown of an individual engines idiosyncrasies or a moan at Hornby. If it is the former then many thanks for the useful comments. As has been shown with posts from the last twelve months, there appear to be no two engines the same.

 

If it is a moan than I can add very little to what Robmcg has stated. It looks like a Star, has the feel of a Star, for the approx. £100 outlay, is the bargain of the century compared to what my kit builds cost in parts alone, and for very little extra investment, I can personalise it to a specific engine. Is it correct? Of course it isn't. It is an elaborate toy. For starters, it is narrow gauge compared to S4! An evening’s work updated my two Hornby Star’s to individual engines not named by Hornby. This is a serious alternative being provided by Hornby and personally, I am very grateful. I can buy 2.5 Hornby Stars for one Mitchell and parts to complete and as for built time….

 

Back dating a Castle to a Star is a lot more work than challenging than changing the cab and boiler. Trust me, I have done so with a Castle kit and the cab and front ends alone took longer than I would normally spend building an entire body.

 

The rebuilds are just as interesting to tackle. I built 111 and 4016 from a Castle kit and I had quite a list of detail differences from ‘standard’ Castles and things were moved over time such as sand boxes behind/in front of cab steps etc.

 

Hats off to Hornby. I would rather spend my rare week off at Christmas running Knight Templar and Queen Berengaria than building them. As I have plates for Knight Commander, Peter’s Spare’s may have another sale, when stock arrives in the New Year. I will still build my remaining unbuilt Mitchell star, but in the meantime, I can just go to the train room and run something that looks like a Star hauling an eight coach express of GWR stock with no two vehicle the same. When I step back and look at the entire train, individual inaccuracies are furthest from my mind.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Not a moan (or bash) as such, I look on these things as a challenge. Most of the improvements that could be done, and that seems to be the term used in the model press, as in "How to Improve the LIMA/Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol model of choice" -(although if it needs improving it wasn't right in the first place), are fairly easy. In fact pretty much along the lines of changing the bogie wheels to the correct 10-spoke pattern. Sorting out the ejector piping to the desired engine number and changing the steam pipe elbow to a Castle class, to match the cylinder covers, or removing the steam pipes altogether (many of the class ran without external steam pipes well into the late 1930's and probably later) are obvious, easy, and not expensive modifications. Having a bit if individual variation (even from a viewing distance of 3 feet, my yardstick as age creeps up) adds some interest. 

 

One thing I do like about this model is the cab detailing, especially the addition of seats. 

 

Out of interest I took out a Hornby Llantillo Castle body from the spares box.(Hornby Railroad version). Matches up almost exactly with a Star, except for the position of the safety valve and the chimney of course. Different cab of course, although a Hornby Saint body (again from the spares box) matches the Star cab profile and roof. My modelling time frame is 1900-1915, so backdating the Hornby 4018 would involve some extensive work to the body (no superheat, no external ejector/pipes, no top feed and no external steam pipes). As done by many others, this gives the opportunity to do a cut and shut and possibly use the modern Castle chassis (now I'm going off-topic and will post this elsewhere as it will also involve conversion to EM gauge).

 

One other thing, and this is IMHO very noticeable from viewing distance, not all Stars had cut-outs in the lower step support, even when built (probably too many broken legs). 4021, 4041 (as built), 4043, and 4060 are some examples where the steps appear to be solid at some stage in their life. 

 

 

BCDR

[coachmann]

The Castle firebox is 10' long (Star 9') and the Castle outside boiler diameter is 5' 9" (Star 5' 6").  While no doubt interesting from a rivet counters point of view, the list of 'faults' on Hornby's new thoroughbred 'Star' looks slightly at odds with the statement that the writer is happy with a 'Castle' that he 'converted' into a 'Star'. 

[Neal Ball]

The Castle firebox is 10' long (Star 9') and the Castle outside boiler diameter is 5' 9" (Star 5' 6").  While no doubt interesting from a rivet counters point of view, the list of 'faults' on Hornby's new thoroughbred 'Star' looks slightly at odds with the statement that the writer is happy with a 'Castle' that he 'converted' into a 'Star'. 

 

Agreed! - Seems to be making a lot of fuss over nothing* - mine has put in several miles this weekend through the Junction and I for one am very happy with it.

 

edit: "*In my opinion!"

Edited December 22, 2013 by Neal Ball

[jjb1970]

Once you start subjecting models to real micro-analysis I suspect very few would pass muster. However, if a model captures the character of the prototype and looks right then for most of us that counts for a lot and if ultimate fidelity to prototype is less than 100% it can be considered an acceptable compromise between cost and accuracy. Note I do say look right, that is a very nebulous concept and very subjective, for me this Star looks like a Star, the finish is perfectly acceptable and it is eminently affordable. Of course it is not beyond criticism at some level but very few models from any of the manufacturers are. I really think this one deserves a thumbs up for Hornby, my only real criticism is the horizontal hand rail on the cab side (the moulded vertical hand rail I am OK with) but that is hardly a deal breaker and doesn't detract much from the model. U nlike the large GWR tanks where the design clever compromises were very apparent the Star looks very good.

[Coach bogie]

The Castle firebox is 10' long (Star 9') and the Castle outside boiler diameter is 5' 9" (Star 5' 6").  While no doubt interesting from a rivet counters point of view, the list of 'faults' on Hornby's new thoroughbred 'Star' looks slightly at odds with the statement that the writer is happy with a 'Castle' that he 'converted' into a 'Star'. 

 Add to that, running plate too long at front and back, incorrect inside cylinder casing for any Star, fire iron tunnel not fitted to Stars until late in their lives, moulded smokebox dart -the core of many comments on here, you have to use a new chassis unless you want 6' 2" wheels....need I go on. Is it worth the effort compared to personalising the Star to you chosen model/period?

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited December 23, 2013 by Coach bogie

[The Great Bear]

Email today from Hattons advising Glastonbury Abbey 1st batch arrived today and my pre-order on its way, second batch due early 2014.

[The Stationmaster]

Email today from Hattons advising Glastonbury Abbey 1st batch arrived today and my pre-order on its way, second batch due early 2014.

 

I will be interested to see some pics if possible Jon as I have placed mine on 'hold' until I get a better idea of how much needs to be done to it (if anything) and how easy some of it will be to do.

 

It is very much marginal date wise in my case so doing without would not come as a hardship (and will cover the cost of the Modelmasters detail kits for the 8 coupled tanks). Referring to earlier posts the overall shape and 'presence' of the Hornby 'Star' is very good and it looks just right next to the real 'Lode Star'.  Hornby's silly mistake with the bogie wheels is probably the biggest shortcoming but that is an error in production rather than getting detail or shape wrong on the loco itself and is readily rectified of course.  I don't like the moulded cabside handrails and reckon that they make the Swindon model not really worth what I had to pay for it but that is to some extent, I suppose, a matter of taste - but I don't begrudge Steam their extra profit one little bit as it contributes to the museum.

[Ozexpatriate]

There is a lot of silver paint picking out details on Lode Star that is not present on Knight of the Grand Cross. I should take a couple of quick photographs to contrast the two. The paint on Lode Star does make the green shelf on the cab-side look a lot more like a handrail - if you don't look closely at all.

And here they are. (Apologies for the lighting / exposures - it is natural light on a dodgy cloudy afternoon. The exposure setting is the same, but the light was changing slightly.)

The silver paint doesn't stand out well against the white background, but it does make the moulded cab rails a bit cosmetically better.

 

There was damage to the plastic cradle in the packaging right above the tender for 4003. This is where the tender brake handle broke off. There was no damage to the box. I suspect this was an 'in-factory' problem rather than the tumble cycle in the post. The broken bits of packaging were bouncing in the cradle when I opened it up. The weird tender rail is too long. I teased it back to vertical, but it is too long to snap in the hole drilled for it. There was also a transverse cylinder (forward of the middle tender wheel) that dropped off with apparently no glue. Hornby QA has a way to go here.

 

I was surprised by the level the detail on the tender. There are a lot of bits on this model and some of them are extremely delicate.

 

There is extra silver paint on the lamp irons, valve gear and grab rails (boiler, cab and tender). Sometimes this helps and sometimes (in the case of two wonky tender rails that were bent) it hurts because defects are more visible.

 

Obviously the footplate needs to come down here. Does anyone have any suggestions? there's not a lot of room for fat fingers here and it feels like too much brute force will make the material snap.

 

Despite the defects, I am very pleased with the overall 'look' and am considering etched plates for another one.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Hargrave]

Email today from Hattons advising Glastonbury Abbey 1st batch arrived today and my pre-order on its way, second batch due early 2014.

Drip-feed.

[robmcg]

Clearly it pays to pre-order. I have Glastonbury 'picked' today by Hattons too. Nice to see it arrived.

 

Curiously ? the Hornby website shows all versions of the DoG as out of stock' but some are being delivered to buyers, (see other threads) not sure whether through pre-orders and retailers or pre-orders with Hornby.com.

 

A bit of luck is involved in being first....

[NigelP]

The Castle firebox is 10' long (Star 9') and the Castle outside boiler diameter is 5' 9" (Star 5' 6").  While no doubt interesting from a rivet counters point of view, the list of 'faults' on Hornby's new thoroughbred 'Star' looks slightly at odds with the statement that the writer is happy with a 'Castle' that he 'converted' into a 'Star'. 

Perfectly happy (from 3 feet!). And I'm no rivet counter (well, I've been known to add a few that were never on the prototype just to provoke comment), although I like a named engine to be close to what it was. The nameplate of my "Star" says "Queen Alexandra Castle Class", essentially the result of the extensive rebuild of a number of Stars to a Castle in 1926-9. See Russell GWR Locomotives V2, page 154  for a photo of North Star #4000 with a Castle firebox (6 washout plugs as opposed to 5 on the "Stars").The boiler and firebox are as far I am aware correct for a Castle (although Hornby's models are a few mm's here and there over/under scale). Good enough for me.

 

Backdating a Castle to an earlier Star involves a bit more than renaming - Coachmann rightly points out that the firebox is 4mm too long (and sloped towards the cab versus horizontal), and the boiler is 2mm in diameter too large (5'-9.5" vs 5'-3.5"). Plus the pitch is wrong. The boiler rings are not quite right either. The backhead is wrong.......As I said, this is a cut and shut conversion and definitely not finescale. And in the 1900's all those rivets weren't there anyway (flush-headed as opposed to snap-headed).

 

Hornby did a good job on the dimensions of their Star, in fact the measurements are at about the tolerance limit I'll be looking for (±0.75-2mm).

 

I have a question for the more knowledgeable: Did Stars have seats? I don't have access to the Star at Swindon (not until next year), Roche shows no seats, and it's my understanding that GWR short cabs did not have seats. Kings, Castles, Halls, County's, etc. did.

 

BCDR

[Coach bogie]

 

I have a question for the more knowledgeable: Did Stars have seats? I don't have access to the Star at Swindon (not until next year), Roche shows no seats, and it's my understanding that GWR short cabs did not have seats. Kings, Castles, Halls, County's, etc. did.

 

BCDR

 

Yes they did. Certainly Truro does, having sat in the firemans on a private charter. Books such as Kenning Collection, Portrait of Western 4-6-0's show small cab engines with seats in everyday use.

 

Quick Google finds  Cab drawing here of a 28xx shows seat lowered.

 

http://www.gwr2807.fsnet.co.uk/galleryn.htm

 

Pic OF 28xx with seat lowered

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+cab+layout&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GFW5UpbUE-ie7Abx_4CwAQ&ved=0CDMQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=708#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=KsYSyB3iV3pzlM%3A%3BvB0bOBCuQ2v14M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.docbrown.info%252Fdocspics%252Fyorkscenes%252Frailwaymuseum%252FP8024085.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.docbrown.info%252Fdocspics%252Fyorkscenes%252Fyspage09b.htm%3B375%3B500

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited December 24, 2013 by Coach bogie

[KGV]

I have a question for the more knowledgeable: Did Stars have seats? I don't have access to the Star at Swindon (not until next year), Roche shows no seats, and it's my understanding that GWR short cabs did not have seats. Kings, Castles, Halls, County's, etc. did.

 

BCDR

 

Here is a link to an image of Lode Star at STEAM, with the drivers seat up.

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lode_Star_Steam_museum_Swindon_(2).jpg

[Coach bogie]

I called in Peter's Spares this afternoon, to find a second deivery of Hornby including Glastonbury Abbey. Only one left by the time I got there. Yes I did. I know I model 1930's but 'the system' is showing no more analogue 4018 to be issued.

 

After testing, the 4,000 tender top has gone and has been replaced with the Collett 3,500 type as supplied with a Bachmann 2251. Just removing all the moulded handrails and lamp brackets (I do not recall reading a thread complaining at Bachmann about this but if it had been Hornby......) Cannot imagine Hornby introducing this option.  Still needs cab side handrails sorting and the smokebox number taking off. Not sure which name it will be so I have left the steam pipes in place. I may choose one of the Castle pipe names just for a change, as I have several sets of unused cast ones.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[B15nac]

Has anyone got a picture of Glastonbury abbey?

Can't wait to see one!

 

Cheers Neil

[robmcg]

here is Kernow's ad...  they have them in stock (no connection)

 

 

 

[robmcg]

I have just sent my email to Hornby - asking for 10 spokes / extractor tool and repeating my request again for new GWR pre-war carriages! 

 

for those who need an extractor tool, and if Hornby cannot supply,

 

Kernows have them today  the last listing on p4 of Hornby steam locomotives.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/35257/X6468_Hornby_Extractor_Tool_for_Steam_Locos

Edited December 24, 2013 by robmcg

[Ian Hargrave]

Bigger tender,different logo/print,suspect no new revelations here.....actually,in reality,there weren't anyway.Life continued at Swindon,much as before.,with GWR embossed on certain locos until their nemesis.Despite my outward cynicism,I am eagerly awaiting delivery of 4061....a celebrity,along with 4056,into antiquity...a much loved and treasured example of locomotive engineering at its finest.

[Ian Hargrave]

here is Kernow's ad...  they have them in stock (no connection)

 

prod_39476_2885.jpg

A set of etched plates awaits...

[John M Upton]

Seems Hattons had them in stock and then they went straight out again so my preorder is in the January batch by the looks of it. How many were there in this initial delivery, three? Not many that is for certain.

[Gruffalo]

For all the criticisms, it certainly seems to be a reasonable seller for Hornby. As stated elsewhere, we need some period coaches to match!

[coachmann]

Watched 'Titfield Thunderbolt' tonight for the umpteenth time except that this time is was recorded in HDD on my shiny new Panny box. Genuine GWR liveried coaches to be seen, which folk might note carried cream nothing like BR cream. At the end of the movie a splendid 'Star' is in the background looking as clean as locos generally did in the early 1950s, though nothing preserved clean. Couldn't catch the name of the 'Star' though. Good to see Hornby's BR version is now available, as it is one GWR loco I have been tempted to buy. Hornby's milky green, which always reminds me of locos that have been in prolonged outdoor storage, will have to be sorted though.  

[B15nac]

I believe it was princess Margaret!

 

Regards Neil