LRM K2/2 61775 Loch Treig

[t-b-g]

I know just what you mean! The proper solution, good engineering and all that, is to make the cylinders removeable to allow good access to the driving wheels. Then there is the practical approach! How many times do you ever actually need to get driving wheels out? I once had a leading crankpin wear to the extent that it sheared off and took the wheels out to replace it. That is once in 35 years and having been involved with hundreds (not all mine!) of kit and scratchbuilt locos.

 

A compromise might be to just tack solder the cylinders on in a couple of places, rather than a full blown soldered seam joint. That way, if the worst happened, at least you have a decent chance of getting the assembly off again.

 

Even a blob or two of epoxy, allowing the joint to be broken with a sharp knife if necessary, might do the trick.

Edited February 12, 2013 by t-b-g

[Rannoch Moor]

Thanks Tony - it is great that my thoughts are mirroring yours (were these your coaches, 9F etc I read about in the early BRMs?  If so,thanks, as your articles were some of my favourite inspiration!).  I am away from the bench as usual during the week but it often ptovides useful thinking time!  I have already tack soldered the rear cylinder face in place pending final decision.  My current thoughts are to place the front facing in place, solder the 00 spacer in place to its rear so that it sits neatly over the EM spacer (and securing hole) that is in place between the frames, remove the rear plate and clean off the tack, replace and solder the rear plate to the 00 spacer (if that makes sense!).  If not, then I have the fall back of just securing in place as you suggest - I rather fancy that at current pogress on my layout (Kilbrannan Ferry - qv) mileage exams are not likely to be a high priority!

 

Gus

Edited February 14, 2013 by Rannoch Moor

[benachie]

Gus,

As I remarked somewhere, I chickened out of the LRM K2 but I do remember wondering if the front drivers could be made removeable using the old Ks dodge of keyhole-shaped slots with the bearings "inverted" and pushed outward by springs from within the frames, the 1/8th slot allowing the axle to drop out for removal.

Alan

[Rannoch Moor]

Thanks Alan - sounds interesting but my instinct is to keep things simple - adjusting the axle holes seems a high risk strategy, especially on a rigid chassis so I will more than likely stick with either removeable cylinders or taking them in place,

 

Cheers

 

Gus 

[t-b-g]

Thanks Tony - it is great that my thoughts are mirroring yours (were these your coaches, 9F etc I read about in the early BRMs?  If so,thanks, as your articles were some of my favourite inspiration!).  I am away from the bench as usual during the week but it often ptovides useful thinking time!  I have already tack soldered the rear cylinder face in place pending final decision.  My current thoughts are to place the front facing in place, solder the 00 spacer in place to its rear so that it sits neatly over the EM spacer (and securing hole) that is in place between the frames, remove the rear plate and clean off the tack, replace and solder the rear plate to the 00 spacer (if that makes sense!).  If not, then I have the fall back of just securing in place as you suggest - I rather fancy that at current pogress on my layout (Kilbrannan Ferry - qv) mileage exams are not likely to be a high priority!

 

Gus

 

 

Cheers Gus but sadly I can claim no credit for the articles you mentioned! I have had one or two bits published in RM, MRJ and BRM but nothing with anything as modern as a 9F (unlesss you count the GCR 9F better known as an N5!).

 

I tend to be more of your "behind the scenes" sort and spend much of my modelling time helping other people with their projects. In fact, I have just spotted some of my work in the heading to this page!

 

Tony

Edited February 14, 2013 by t-b-g

[Rannoch Moor]

Decided to follow my instincts and make the cylinders removable using the plan above (time stuck in traffic not entirely wasted!), namely to slot the rear cylinder face plate in place make a new spacer (out of the P4 frame cylinder spacer) and secure the front plate in place on the new spacer.  The parts laid out below should hopefully make the scheme clear... The rear plate and spacer are in the first pic.

The middle photo above shows the cylinder spacer laid over the top of the EM equivalent that is in place between the frames.  Note that in the third one down the rear cylinder face plate has not quite been pushed vertically down into its slot but hopefully you should get the idea.  I soldered a 12BA nut over the hole in the plate that will hold the unit onto the chassis and also served to hold the plate firmly in place whilst the back plate was soldered in pace.

The next job was to very carefully file back the frames and EM spacer so that the top of the front plate could be soldered to the cylinder spacer.  It is essential to ensure that the relationship between the front and rear face plates remains constant, square and paralle and as it would have been if you had stayed with George Norton's original design. Although they will end up slightly closer together use of the wrapper will ensure this is not noticable - it also helps keep them parallel as it happens.  Eventually I could (very quickly to avoid securing the shebang to the chassis!) solder the front plate on nice and square...

You can see below why a.  the relationship is important, b. the low clearances in relation to the footplate, and c.  why making the cyliders removeable might be a good idea...

Edited February 16, 2013 by Rannoch Moor

[t-b-g]

That looks a very neat solution. I have an unbuilt K2 kit in the cupboard and when the time comes I will be nicking that idea!

 

I cannot quite recall how the motion bracket fits but I think that is designed to be soldered to the frames as well. You may need to put your thinking cap on for that too. If you would like to solve that one for me too, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[Rannoch Moor]

Haven't got quite that far in my thinking yet Tony, but I will do my best!  The slidebars are pretty solid so initial thoughts may be to not actually secure the ends to the bracket - or alternatively to secure them to the bracket but not solder the bracket to the frames...

 

Gus 

[Rannoch Moor]

Have started on the (quite fiddly but hopefully fun) motion bracket this morning.  So far so good...  Forgot to mention yesterday that AFTER you have used the front tongue that extends forward from the front spacer,  seen here:

 

 

to set up the front cylinder plate accurately, you will need to file it off and ensure that the underside of the new cylinder spacer is perfectly clear of solder etc if the new unit is to sit correctly and neatly.

 

Gus

[t-b-g]

Haven't got quite that far in my thinking yet Tony, but I will do my best!  The slidebars are pretty solid so initial thoughts may be to not actually secure the ends to the bracket - or alternatively to secure them to the bracket but not solder the bracket to the frames...

 

Gus 

 

Your second idea might be best as that will allow the valve gear to be removed as a single unit with the cylinders and slidebars.

 

If the curved link is firmly attached to the frames by the motion bracket, that will make removal tricky.

 

Tony

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Your second idea might be best as that will allow the valve gear to be removed as a single unit with the cylinders and slidebars.

 

If the curved link is firmly attached to the frames by the motion bracket, that will make removal tricky.

 

Tony

 

The cast slidebars should have sufficient strength and rigidity to make the complete assembly practical. That's the approach I used on the LRM LNWR Jubilee, but there is no valvegear to worry about.

 

However I made the cylinders, slidebars and Joy valve gear for the LNWR Teutonic a fixed part of the frames with a drop in slot (perhaps that should be a push up slot) for the leading driven axle and bearings. That axle doesn't have any connecting rods, which makes life easier. Also the slidebars are built up from etches and each pair is separate from the cylinder end casting, so it is easier to assemble with the cylinder and motion plate already fixed in place in the frames.

 

The attached photos show the test etch builds for the Jubilee cylinder assembly (the drain cock linkage had to be thinned down considerably) and for the Teutonic frames.

 

Jol

 

 

[t-b-g]

The cast slidebars should have sufficient strength and rigidity to make the complete assembly practical. That's the approach I used on the LRM LNWR Jubilee, but there is no valvegear to worry about.

 

However I made the cylinders, slidebars and Joy valve gear for the LNWR Teutonic a fixed part of the frames with a drop in slot (perhaps that should be a push up slot) for the leading driven axle and bearings. That axle doesn't have any connecting rods, which makes life easier. Also the slidebars are built up from etches and each pair is separate from the cylinder end casting, so it is easier to assemble with the cylinder and motion plate already fixed in place in the frames.

 

The attached photos show the test etch builds for the Jubilee cylinder assembly (the drain cock linkage had to be thinned down considerably) and for the Teutonic frames.

 

Jol

 

Jubilee slide bars.JPG

 

Frames 34RR.JPG

 

Very nice!

 

I think with that one, I would have done exactly the same, especially as coupling rods are not an issue and those etched slidebars look a bit more delicate than the K2 ones.

 

Just goes to show that there is always more than one way to tackle a modelling job!

 

Cheers,

 

Tony 

[Rannoch Moor]

Thanks Tony and Jol - very helpful mid-week food for thought!  I am certainly inclined to make the cylinders and motion bracket up as one unit, secured through the cylinder spacer with the bracket resting on the top of the mainframes.  As a fall back, when I get home, I will look and see if an extra spacer is desireable once I complete the brass and solder origami that making the bracket looks like it might involve.  Once that is done and I've decided the best way ahead re the mounting of cylinders etc, the priority will be to set up the chassis to run as a powered 0-6-0 and start work on marrying the powered chassis to the body.

 

Gus

 

Edit - PS, that will be in between Model Rail Scotland of course on Saturday, not to mention my domestic duties...!

Edited February 21, 2013 by Rannoch Moor

[Rannoch Moor]

Got the motion bracket finished last night and after having had a long think about it, have decided to keep the slidebars and bracket separate.  I have arranged the motion bracket to be detachable and inserted a further stretcher between the frames to mount it upon  - these 2 phots should make things clear - the essential thing is to ensure the bracket is central so there is no misalignment of the slidebars and thus valvegear.

 

 

I soldered a 12BA nut exactly centrally under the stretcher after I ad marked up the position for the hole - the way to ensure this is to attach the bracket over the stretcher using a 0.7mm wire through the frames and bracket as described in the kit instructions and as is hopefully evident from the photos.  Use the marks on the top of the bracket (seen below) to ensure all is and remains central.  Check several times and drill once!

 

I then soldered the slidebars to the cylinders repeatedly checking all was parallel etc in all planes and the the crosshead continued to slide freely...  Reference to the mounted motion bracket I found was very helpful.

 

 

It all took a bit of observation and a return this afternnon but I am satisfied I have a working solution.  The CH screw may foul the boiler bottom but filing it down slightly, using a CSK screw or drilling a clearing hole in the boiler will all be valid options.  Time to set up a running 0-6-0 chassis next to see if the coupling rods are as bad as Tony Wright found them to be...  I must say that they don't look too far out when set up on my jig axles but the proof of the pudding will be in the running quality I think!

[Rannoch Moor]

A quick update from last weekend that was forgotten in the return to work...! As you will see from the photos below, I started to set up for getting a running chassis but noticed that as Tony Wright found, there seemed to be a discrepancy between coupling rod length and wheelbase... But only on one side and to an extent not seen before (this was not the first check! A comparison of the rods concerned showed they were the same length as each other too...

 

 

 

What had changed? I realised that adding the new spacewr (for the motion bracket) had possibly introduced a bend and sure enough a check with a ruler and a try square proved me right. I fitted the coupling rods, applied the iron to oe side of the new spacer. By magic:

 

 

To ensure absolute accuracy I used the square ended Jamieson (?) jigs to ensure that the by now laminated rods were exactly parallel to the line of the chassis. I also made up the High Level Loadhauler gearbox so all is ready to get things rolling hopefully tomorrow.

 

Gus

[Rannoch Moor]

This afternoon saw me getting the wheels on and after a bit of tweaking, got a cleanly rolling chassis. Although I had to open out the bearing holes on the coupling rods quite a bit (about 5-10 thou clearance on the crankpins) it wasn't too fiddly. Just quartered the front wheels (lining up the spokes from the rear) then the centre pair and got a running 0-4-0 first time. Then the rear pair. Despite being pretty sure I had got the quartering accurate by the spokes (which is quite easy as the chassis bottom is quite high) I had a bit of a tight spot but easing the bearing holes in the rod a bit further nailed it. The hardest bit was fiddling with the Alan Gibson crankpin nuts. The wheels have now been removed again as i am confident that the axle holes and coupling rod ones match...!<br /><br />Gus

[t-b-g]

Looking good! I like the mod for the cylinders and motion bracket. I tried to pursuade Malcolm to do something like that when he was designing it. Sometimes he would listen to me but more often he was not one for changing his mind once it was made up!

 

You seem to have worked your way around the discrepancy in the coupling rod centres too. The rods were not drawn new for the K2 but were lifted from the J6 artwork. This is long before CAD drawing and all those kits were hand drawn. The rods in the K2 kit seem to have had their scaling slightly adrift in the etching process as the K2 rods are not the same length as rods produced from exactly the same artwork for the J6 kits.

 

If they had been on the same sheet of artwork as the K2 frames, it wouldn't have caused a problem as the rods and frames would have both been out by the same few "thou" but as they weren't, they ended up slightly different.

 

Nobody made the problem known until Tony Wright's review/build article as the test build was done with sprung hornblocks assembled using the rods to set the centres.

 

Tony

[Rannoch Moor]

Cheers Tony. I am slightly surprised that the coupling rods worked out. As you can see from above there was a point when it seemed one rod was out but I narrowed that down to having soldered the motion bracket support in such a way that it knocked the frames out of true. Other than that I'm not sure how it worked given the rigid approach, other than maybe I got lucky and/or just opened the crankpin holes out to the correct extent - but I still have the Alan Gibson Universals standing by for when I re-wheel just in case it was a one-off fluke!<br /><br />You will also be pleased to hear that I have sourced some halfround 0.7mm wire (Eileen's) for the tender coal rails - although I will probably solder them on top of the existing half etched ones to ensure alignment etc.<br /><br />Gus

[Rannoch Moor]

Have had a bit of a break from my Scottish bench as I was duty last week and my modelling time yesterday was spent painting PVA and sprinkling ballast between the sleepers on Kilbrannan Ferry.  However, the half round wire has been ordered from Eileen's and as I am working from home this week looking forward to resuming progress.  This afternoon will hopefully see some painting (or brake fitting) on the chassis.

[Rannoch Moor]

Got the basic chassis primed (Alclad White) and then the inners painted red. Brake blocks and hangers soldered together (remembering they're handed which the instructions forget to tell you!).  The 0.7mm half-round wire arrived so progress was made on the tender coal rails.  measured and shaped the ends od the shorter lower one first and then after tinning, sweated it in top of the half etched version...

Then, very carefully, shaped and checked the top one before doing the same - looked quite good....

 

Bending to shape (measure repeatedly before committing!) exposed the (anticipated to be honest) weakness, ie that there would be a subtle difference in lengths between the half-round wire and the etched part.  There was, and this caused a little separation on the rear parts, but I thought "No problem, just snip off the half etched backing", and then snipped once, and then again.  Trouble was, the second snip cut both rails - DOH! 

 

My thoughts were though, to fit and see if I could butt joint the ends - surprisingly, it seems to have worked...  I have, however, cyanoed the two rear stanchions as soldering may well have undone the success of rejoining the rails.  It all needs tidying up but here are the results.

 

The soldered joints are just to the right of the rearmost stanchion on the last picture above.  The front LH rail needs lowering too so that will be done after tea...

 

Gus

[Rannoch Moor]

Went back and soldered the rear stanchions in the end - the ones above weren't quite in the right place.  They also helped align the butt jointed rails which are now a lot better although not perfect.  Also did some fine tuning for the chassis and cut out the main springs for attachment tomorrow although 1 was dropped whilst having the etched connections filed off.  And after 10 mins crawling around the floor I have given up...  Hopefully it will reappear tomorrow!

[t-b-g]

The extra work on the coal rails looks to be worthwhile, especially in 7mm.

 

It has crossed my mind that the coupling rods may be better in the 7mm kit as the artwork may have been checked for scale before it was turned into metal and the error in the 4mm kit may have been corrected.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[Rannoch Moor]

Agree Tony - despite my clanger (which isn't really noticeable for a layout loco) the half round coal rails really do make a difference - thanks for suggesting it.  I just need to insert the rear coal plate and the body will be ready for priming.  Back into the fray - can't waste a day off!

 

Gus

[Rannoch Moor]

Steady (but not sexy) progress today and yesterday.  Cleaned up the tender coal rails and fitted the rear coal plate and the tender body is now substantially complete.  The rear view below shows the join in the rails before I had tidied up the joint using wet and dry and a fibreglass brush...

 

 

The rest of the attention was spent on refitting the wheels and ensuring I still had a roller with the coupling rods fitted and secured (I did thankfully) so off they came and I set about fitting the brake gear, pick ups and painting the thing.  Alclad wite primer ( a stated above) did the honours which highlighted any issues as well as acting as a bright base for the inner frames' red coat (an old tin of Cherry Buffer Beam Red airbrushed on).

 

 

Although not captured, the outer frames now sport a tasteful mix of Phoenix finest Dirty Black mixed 2:1 with Frame Dirt.  A very superficial clean of the unmasked inner frames with a thinners dampened flat brush weathered these nicely...  Pics to follow.  You will also not the pickup arrangement although I think it may prove a little awkward for the front drivers, especially the lucky one that has a spring!  The paint was cleaned off the ends where the connections to the wheels will be effected with cellulose thinners after painting the outer "black".

 

You will note the missing spring which still lurks somewhere on my model room floor.  I may make a plasticard replacement although I doubt it will be noticeable behind the cylinders and slidebars - and it will be on the blind-side when it's running as Kilbrannan Ferry don't have a turntable...! 

 

PS I will straighten the rear tender footsteps.... ;-)

Edited March 23, 2013 by Rannoch Moor

[Rannoch Moor]

Despite a bit of a break from posting, work has continued on the chassis.  Got everything set up and connected for first powered running trials but despite an encoragingly free running push along 0-6-0 chassis, this was not so successful when under power.  Things would run pretty well for a few moments but then a dreaded stiff spot started to appear and this was exacerbated by things seeming to get stiffer as time wore on.

 

I reckoned that maybe my rod/chassis relationship might not have been as exactly matched as hoped so removed the wheels, gearbox and motor and re-inserted the jig axles.  This indicated that the crankpin holes in the rods may have been a bit oversized, but probably more critically, the rear (driven) axle bearings were allowing a smidgeon too much play (ie I'd reamed them too much and they were oversized...).

 

After a (not so) entertaining time removing and replacing them, I have decided that I will also make up new coupling rods from an Alan Gibson Universal set.